Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

I don't think there's anything in the films to suggest that Rey is more powerful than Luke, or that Luke couldn't do the things Rey does. Rey seems to be very talented, intuitive, open, and to be starting from a place of already knowing a fair bit about the Jedi. Also, by the end of TFA, she has a lot more experience with the Force than Luke does. I don't think feats tell us much, particularly removed from context.

 

An interesting question would be what influences the will of the force? Does it have an endgoal? Is that goal just balance between the light and the darkside or could it be something more elaborate? Or could it be that it only reacts on things happening?

 

I think the problem for many people with the speed we see Rey suddenly pic up Force skills is that with Luke we see him getting basic instructions and training by Obi-Wan and all he do conscious in ANH is blocking with his lightsabre and doing that one-in-a-million shot and then in ESB (years after) he can barely call upon his lightsabre, after first failing and then really concentrating, before he meet Yoda. And even after his training montage with Yoda he's not that great.

Anakin, who is supposed to be this great Force conduct by the reactions of the Jedi in TPM, stronger than anything they have ever seen, can only use it at an unconscious level during all of TPM.

Rey is suddenly able to do stuff Luke could not do until RotJ and that without any kind of guidance or real understanding about the Force.

That's what I think people have problem with. I have problem with that.

If the movies had showed us that she had had some history of training or hanging around Force users (before she was sold) so she had some idea instead of just third/fifth hand stories about the Force and the Jedi (which seems to be all knowledge she has) I would not have such a big problem with it (even if I probably would still be grumbling about how fast she learn stuff).

I must admit I did not really get that impression, she seemed to know more than Luke but then again Luke did not seem to know much. To me seemed to be around the same level as Anakin in TPM, even if her knowledge seems to be more focused around Luke then Jedi in general

I' not certain I get what you mean here, can you expand?

What the writers need/wants I would say.

 

These aren't trivial, on Luke's part. He can't get the hang of the blocking thing, Obi-Wan sort of explains it to him, and then he totally nails it. Then he uses that same principle to make a literally impossible shot and save the galaxy. I don't think we have to trivialize Luke to criticize Rey.

But it's because he's panicking, not because it's, like, "too heavy" for him or anything. Luke's issue here isn't that he doesn't know how to call his lightsaber, and Yoda flat out tells him that lifting his X-Wing is no different from lifting his lightsaber or a rock. Luke's limitation here is his own control.

Not that great at what?

I don't understand how this is related.

What stuff? What does she do in these movies that Luke can't do? The duel at the end of TFA?

Right.

She's captured by Kylo Ren, who telekinetically immobilizes her, then gives her a crash course in using the Force to get into peoples' minds. Right before that, she's taken on a weird trippy waking dream sequence through history. She's put through the ringer. I think the thing people forget is that she receives more practical training from Kylo Ren in TFA than Obi-Wan gives Luke in ANH, just by the nature of their interactions. I always figured the end of the duel, when she says "The Force" and closes her eyes for a moment and everything goes quiet before she goes on to win, is her taking Maz's advice and turning off her targeting computer.

 

I find it interesting that now people are saying that Luke wasn’t as much of a believer in the Force when being a hardcore believer, to the point of arguing with Han about it, to the point of never doubting the good he sensed in his father because he felt it through the Force, was actually a main trait of his character. He didn’t always believe in himself which is why he failed, but that is an entirely different matter.

Rey’s first encounter with the Force was utter rejection, and then latter she is pulling mind tricks out of nowhere. There is no storyline about she being a truer believer than others that is explicitly in the movies - there is however, a story about she not believing in herself (like Luke) and wanting to hold on to the past for two movies in a row. But it just doesn’t translate to whatever her character arc in the Force is suppose to be or signify. Whatever her issues and shortcoming are, they are meaningless and she doesn’t really need to overcome any flaw or challenge in her Force journey. She gets instant Force upgrades instead, and they always feel like they come out of nowhere, as if the story is trying to rush her to be a Jedi.

 

Respectfully, I think this is confusing a few different arguments. Luke didn't believe wholeheartedly that his father, Darth Vader, had good in him and could be saved until after he found out Darth Vader was his father. But before that, Luke's problem isn't just that he doesn't believe in himself but that he doesn't believe that what Yoda tells him about the Force is possible. It's worth remembering the Luke we see tell Yoda and Obi-Wan that Vader can be saved is Luke at the end of his training. The argument isn't really that Rey has more faith in the existence of the Force than Luke, but that Rey comes to it a lot more open.

How's that?

She's just been forced to defend herself against Kylo Ren, and pushes this into invading his mind. Then she turns and tries it on the stormtrooper. (And fails a couple of times, presumably trying different things.)

She actually winds up doing the same "I know better than my teacher does" thing Luke does in ESB.

What are these Force upgrades, and in what ways does the movie fail to accomodate for them? I keep seeing this argument being made but, and maybe I have a shoddy memory, I can't think of very many instances of Rey doing anything with the Force before the "lifting rocks" thing at the end of TLJ.

 

@BobaMatt
1. Whatever you say, it still doesn’t inform her character in the movies. She is never put in a position where her believes in the Force or what she can do with it are challenged, so it’s near impossible for me to tell that she is supposed to be a truer believer or not.

2. Her first encounter with the Force was with the lightsaber calling to her, which she rejected. I believe her exact words was “I don't want any part of this.” She never felt "more open" to it than Luke to me.

3. She stills pulls a mind trick out of nowhere.

4. She does, but unlike Luke, it has ultimately no consequences for her. Kylo immediately bails her our and ultimately, she indirectly accomplished the replacement of the worst threat for a minor threat she can match.
If that was supposed to signify failure and consequences of an impulsive and young padawan who thinks better than her master, I don’t know, it just wasn’t there. The movie was, ironically, filled with the “failure” theme, but while every other character does mistakes that cost something to them (mostly people’s lives), Rey gets through whatever her hard challenges are supposed to be without any resemblance of a consequence whatsoever, and saves the day (again) at the end.

Rey does show flaws in TLJ – like she straight up attack Luke with no justification for it. But it never factors in her development, as later she gets named the last Jedi because… I don’t know, really. She stole some books I guess. She never gets mentored, she just does whatever, if it doesn't work doesn't work, but it's meaningless because the movies keep rewarding her at the end.

5. I don’t know, she goes from being a scavenger to do mind tricks, pull lightsabers out of the snow, figure out how to fight with a lightsaber instead of a staff, crack the floor with her crazy mediation powers, fight multiple opponents trained to deal with Force users without much of a scratch, and lift a huge tons of rocks at the end… with virtual no effort or no guidance or no training ever shown previously. Last time we visited a padawan training session he couldn’t lift a X-Wing. She just does all of this on her own in pretty much about 3 days, or whatever is the short timeline between the movies.

To me, that is instant Force upgrades that come out of nowhere. It may not feel that way to you, but it does to me, and it’s one of the reasons (not the only one) that I am very dismayed with her character.

 

I think there's an interesting difference between Rey and Luke that explains the difference in the rapidity of their learning.

Luke certainly believed he had the Force, and knew he could use it, but he also had his share of doubts (the X-wing is too big, I can't see the remote to deflect blasts, etc.). In addition, I believe Heir to the Jedi and Weapon of the Jedi show that he doesn't really know what he can do, just that he can do it. He doesn't know the particulars, so he's always doubting his limits.

Rey seems to be more of a woman of faith. Like Luke, she believes she has the Force, and knows she can use it, but she doesn't really seem to have many doubts about her abilities, just about how to control them. She doesn't see any restrictions; she just assumes she can do things. This is partially because of her reading of Kylo's mind; she must think something along the lines of If it's possible for him to do that, it's possible for me, too. So unlike Luke, Rey doesn't have doubts about the limits of her abilities, she just believes that what she's about to do is possible, so it is. That's the progression Luke showed between ESB and ROTJ, too. Rey just didn't face the doubting phase so much.

I'd also note that this aspect of her character is shared by Finn. He has this funny blind faith in the Force even though (so far) he hasn't shown any kind of aptitude for Force use. He, like Rey, just knows the Force exists and has faith in it. I think the fact that the main characters of the ST have such bold faith is a really interesting mirror of how in today's world people, no matter what their belief system, have this absolute certainty that they are right. Whether it's politics, religion, or otherwise, we're all convinced we're right and won't have our minds changed. This is how Rey (and Finn, and I think even Kylo) feel about the Force, and I think this is what makes their propensity for using it so much bigger than what we've seen before.

 

Just wondering, do we know if Snoke was talking the truth about the whole “Rey being a Moorcock-ian Champion of Balance/Light created/risen to challenge Kylo as the Champion of Darkness/general badness” or if he was lying or plain wrong? Because if he is talking the truth that could mean that either the Force created her before Ben become Kylo or she somehow was chosen after that. If it is the later, to this ‘chosen one’ anointment give you a power boost or something similar or are you just pushed toward a confrontation with the other Champion?

I did not trivialize Luke, I just stated what he was able to do and not do at different parts of the saga.

And I would not say I'm criticize Rey, I'm criticize the way the movies show her getting Force skills. Overall I rather like her.

I never said it was too heavy for him or anything like that just that he had some real problem with it. We don't really know what the problem is, just that it's hard for him to do it, but he don't seem to think summoning the 'sabre should be something that's too heavy for him. Rey is in a similar situation but is not just able to summon it but to do that at the same time as Kylo is doing it and she is overriding him.

Using the Force

I'm making a comparison: Anakin in the PT has as much training as Rey in TFA but what they are able to do is rather different

She is able to do the mind trick on a person that is prepared and hostile toward her. I think I will have to take back the RotJ part and change that to post-Yoda.

Is that something that has been stated in the EU or just a theory?

 

I think Rey was chosen to counter the darkness in general. At first the eye of the storm swirled around Snoke, but the epicenter had shifted to Kylo Ren before Snoke's demise.

Or the Force just, you know, had visions of the future.

 

Well we know what Luke does do. Doubtless, if saving the galaxy had involved him pulling something into his hand from afar, we'd have seen him do that, instead.

The fact that he doesn't seem to think it's too "heavy" for him or whatever leads me to believe it's something he can do, and the fact that he fixes it by making an effort to calm down has always lead me to believe his panicking was the problem.

I guess I'm just not ever that surprised by the "special protagonist pulling off something amazing in a moment of duress" thing that happens in films and novels. Honestly I'd assumed it had more to do with the way the saber called to her than anything.

Using the Force[/quote]
I don't really remember that from the training. Mostly it was running through the jungle and stacking rocks.

But their circumstances throughout the films are also very different.

It's in the novelization, yeah, but it's also in the film. Between Maz and Kylo Ren, Rey learns more about using the Force in TFA than Luke learns from Ben before Ben dies.

 

I have a question for this thread, a thought experiment...

IF the entire galaxy were to truly be at complete peace, and if there was no injustice at any level... then, what would be the focus of the Jedi? Can the Jedi only exist in any meaningful way in a broken, imperfect society? Or would they just evolve and shift their focus? If they did evolve and shift their focus... to what? Contemplating the Force? Educating others about the Force, and spreading their philosophy/values? Leading expeditions to other galaxies?

 

We have seen ways the Jedi help outside of fighting injustice. I think the Service Corps': Agricultural, Education, Exploration, and Medical corps are a great example of this. None of them require injustice or fighting. They exist to heal and teach.

 

Except I believe if Luke hadn't convinced Vader to rebel against the Emperor, the Death Star would destroyed the moon and they would have destroyed the fleet.

It's stated such in the novelization.

Also, that's a ridiculous sort of assertion when Rey is explictly stated to have been chosen by the Force.

 

I dont think she was saying that Luke was not pivotal, the point is that Luke was just a rallying point for a larger cause. He was a linchpin for sure, but him saving Vader would have done nothing if so many had not been willing to put everything on the line. It reminds me of Harry's role in Deathly Hallows, he is a rallying point and the one to defeat Voldemort, but he is not what the Order of the Phoenix exists to fight for. He is just a major tool for this rebellion that he exists within.

 

Yeah, I'm not sure I truck with that interpretation of the films, either. TLJ's theme isn't that there's no such thing as heroes but that becoming a hero doesn't always happen the way you think it will.

 

I didn't say that there's no such thing as heroes. I said there's no such thing as "Chosen Ones," that everyone needs to take part together.

EDIT: Like, my dream for the future of Star Wars is that Rey will have duplicated those books and given them to everyone. That her "Jedi school" isn't about minimum midi-chlorian counts and the ability to lift rocks, but that she teaches everyone to be a Jedi in whatever way they can. To a degree this started with The Force Awakens. Abrams said that what drew him to the project is the question "Who is Luke Skywalker?" yet Luke is nowhere to be found in the film, so we have to look for the answer in the characters who are. Luke Skywalker is found in Rey, in Finn, and in Poe, each of them reflecting different aspects of who he was (much in the same way that the three prequel villains, Maul, Dooku, and Grievous, reflect different aspects of who Vader will become). Each of them has to learn Jedi lessons in The Last Jedi, how to lead, why to fight, how to let go. I would like to see this continue in a more explicit fashion in the final chapter, as I think it will go a long way to breaking this cycle of galactic war. We'll see what happens.

 

I actually posted on this board how the Jedi could change, where it's a philosophy and not a power thing. Finn would be a Jedi due to his moral grounding being in line with the Jedi's, while Ben Solo would be rejected due to his lack of morality. Someone responded that Finn would be sliced down the moment the Jedi fought an enemy, which I can't entirely disagree with. Maybe he would be in a non-frontline role?

Finn, poe and rey represented who luke Skywalker should be, not who he actually was, which was a sad man who gave up on an island. 7 didn't show us who luke was. 8 did, and it wasn't pretty. It also showed he did 5 minutes of heroism at the end to get redemption, which made him more like Anakin than anyone thought.

 

All the same: the films are pretty explicit that there are Chosen Ones and they're monumentally important. I think I'm with you about the lessons each of these characters learn, though - they're all struggling with their preconceptions of what it means to be heroic.

 

Spoiler

Oppo Rancisis, Coleman Kjac and Quinlan Vos are running around out their. I wonder how they survived. Luck or skill.Vos survived in Legends as well but Rancisis was killed by Sora Bulq during the Clone Wars. I want to see Vader take the three of them down.

 

…..

 

Someone who watches the new canon without reading any Hidalgo-written reference guides are going to be confused. They will think that Vader restored balance by destroying the Sith in ROTJ, but then 7 starts with Lor San Tekka outright saying there is no balance in the Force.

Someone correct me while I'm wrong, but while Legends had tons of Sith running around after ROTJ, I don't think any character outright said the Force was out of balance...? Yet 7 literally begins with a character saying this, which seems rather baffling and contradictory to the Chosen One arc of the PT (and retroactively the OT).

 

I guess it became unbalanced again. Anakin was just a bandaid.

 

Is it just me or has Force sense lost its potency in the NEU? In Legends, Jedi and Sith could sense each other like a DBZ character could sense a person's power. Now its a hit and miss. It works when the plot needs it to.

 

I think that's always been an issue to some extent. NEU seems to keep itself better in line with how the Force is portrayed across all the films/TV shows. The EU, spawned as it was in an era where there was only the OT to go off, was generally more inclined to take things further.

That being said, TLJ is as "EU" in its portrayal of the Force as anything has ever been. It's the closest thing we've ever had to a DE or TotJ movie.