Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

It's worth pointing out also that there's precedent in the Clone Wars for Force ghosts to appear in places where the Force is especially strong, where the person to whom the ghost belongs may not otherwise have been able to appear or communicate - Qui-Gon doesn't appear corporeally or really talk much to people before RotS, but he shows up to Obi-Wan on Mortis as a fully embodied image.

As for the difference between Force ghosts and the Force using a person's image and personality to communicate it's own will...I don't think that's a distinction the Jedi would want anyone to make too much of.

Sure! But at the same time I don't know what those positions, practices, and points of disagreement could be for Ahsoka.

The Force knights Kanan, so I guess he's doing all right.

 

I was going to suggest that the Jedi Order = the Catholic Church and Ahsoka = Protestant.

 

This is a good point - if upon dying, you become one with the Force, then any vision produced by the Force would also be produced by the person it is a vision of.

 

This becomes problematic: "I can't do it Ben, I can't kill my own father." "Then the Emperor has already won."

So basically the Force itself is telling Luke to kill Vader? It's much easier to swallow if a fallible ghost of Kenobi is saying this. Not the Force. The Legends book the Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi further show that this was Kenobi's own belief, not the Force's.

And even then, this is all inherently based on the Jedi assumption that the Force is good and benevolent. While the Sith believe the Force is malevolent and favors the strong and punishes the weak (and from all the bad stuff that happens in Star Wars, they might have a point).

"All is as the Force wills it"--Chirrut Imwe. I'm assuming this means all the bad stuff too. Honestly, statements like this never made much sense to me. This statement itself means the Force wills much of the time for very terrible things to happen, giving validity to the Sith claim that the Force is on their side.

If Obi-Wan is just the Force, then the Force was telling Luke not to go to Bespin. However, all is as the Force wills it--meaning the Force was willing Luke to go to Bespin the whole time. It's confusing.

As a joke now, I'm going to guess the reason Luke went to Ahch-to is the same "insanity" that afflicts Deadpool. Sometime after his school is destroyed he realizes he lives in a corporate owned franchise, and everything he does is under the control of screenwriters. It drives him insane and he runs off to Ahch-to--or was that even his choice to begin with? He ran off to Ahch-to because a screenwriter made him do it?

He tells Rey it's so much bigger... Then looks at the camera. You--Yeah you! It's all your fault!! Everything I go through is for your entertainment! Luke then breaks into DCAU Joker laughter.

I shouldn't have been reading through 'Sophie's World'.

 

I think Ahsoka really looked up to the Jedi Masters and then had her "the Emperor (not Palpatine) has no clothes" moment. How attune with the Force could the Masters be if they could not sense that Ahsoka would never do such a thing? She probably doesn't believe in their hierarchy or bureaucracy anymore. She probably doesn't believe in the limits the Jedi Order place on her independence and self-determination. It looks like she even had a boyfriend after she left the Jedi Order based on the "Untold Stories" panel, so she obviously doesn't believe in that lack of attachment. She believes in revenge, which is not the Jedi way according to DV. I think there are a lot of boxes the Jedi Order don't check for her. This is probably what Luke means by his "Jedi must end" line.

Ha! Good point...he's a Jedi. But, he obviously doesn't believe in or follow all of the Jedi Council's mandates, like someone like ObiWan or Yoda would. So, maybe you can be a Jedi through the Force and not believe in all of the Jedi Council's ways.

 

This is true. That said, Obi-Wan appearing does put Luke in a position to confront Vader to begin with, so maybe the answer is somewhere in the middle, and we can understand it as the Force working through fallible people.

The Sith don't seem to believe this. They believe that the dark side is superior and seek to snuff overwhelm and dominate the Force with it, but all signs point to them believing in and fearing the light. In Legends, Plagueis was specifically worried about the Force "striking back" at him for this machinations, potentially using his own ends to defeat the Sith - if we believe that Plagueis' alchemy resulted in Anakin, then he'd have beenright.

I mean this is an old philosophical question. I choose to believe that Chirrut's saying that the Force is constantly working to balance and correct, that the arc of the Force tends towards peace.

 

I agree with the Ahsoka comment made above, that it is like her leaving the church but still believing in god.

As for knighting Kanan, I am still thinking it was a vision Yoda gave to him of the GI knighting him. Giving him a familiar face, not just having some rando like Kit Fisto or Aayla Secura or someone knighting him. I like the idea of the GI repenting after his death and trying to do good in the afterlife, but I do not believe that is how it played out.

One thing is for certain though, I am really enjoying how canon blends mystical and science and religious ideas into one. It is probably the most interesting part of canon in my opinion.

 

I actually think the best evidence for it being more than merely a personal Force vision of Kanan's is that use of the Grand Inquisitor - why him, of all people? And then don't forget, he and the other "spirits" take on the Inquisitors.

 

Hmm, I forgot about this. That may be Plagueis' own personal belief in the Force being good and attacking him though, and aberrant from what most of the Sith believe as a whole. The Sith code states: "Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me." It seems to indicate the Sith believe the Force is on their side to impose their will, not that the Force made the chains to begin with.

 

When Ahsoka saw her future self what was that?

 

Flow walking in canon. Ahsoka probably realized she had to close the loop and, having been left on Malachor to die, did exactly that.

 

As it was with Lord Voldemort. To repent after death is too little, too late. You have to repent while alive, renounce the evil and atone for your crimes. Vader sacrificed his own life to destroy the greatest evil in the Galaxy. Grand Inquisitor didn't do a thing to atone for his crimes. He just chose to die rather than survive and face Vader's retribution for failure. That's not atonement, it's cowardice.

 

I'm curious about the "seeds of the dark side" Ahsoka's vision says Anakin has planted in her.

 

If so, the Force is even less nice than it lets on. Some people like the Nightbrothers didn't choose the Dark Side. They were raised to be evil and that's all they know. Obi-Wan even expressed sympathy to Maul about this in TCW.

Maybe the Grand Inquisitor made his choices on his own, but lots of other darksiders in Star Wars didn't (Rakata slaves, everyone in the Legends Sith Empire, Nightbrothers and Nightsisters, children raised to be in Death Watch, etc). For the Force to punish them forever just because they never knew another way...

And Rebels still isn't over... Uh oh... Filoni, what have you done??

 

Re: Force spirits. They are mouthpieces of the Force. Obi-Wan is and is not Obi-Wan anymore. To be able to manifest as a Force spirit, you have to completely surrender your ego to the Force. In a sense, undergoing the process of death while still physically alive. In Sufism this is called fana wa baqa, annihilation and subsistence. You so thoroughly annihilate your self in God that essentially become an embodiment of the Divine. They die before they die.

In ROTJ, both Yoda and Obi-Wan are speaking to Luke on numerous levels, most of them symbolic. He has to face Vader, physically and spiritually. Both the outer Vader(his father) and the inner(his own tendency towards evil) must be faced, must be conquered one way or another. Nothing Luke's masters tell him is wrong. He may indeed have to kill Vader physically to stop him and the Emperor. The chances of bringing Anakin back from the darkness of Vader is extremely slim. He managed that, Luke killed Darth Vader and resurrected Anakin Skywalker. He also, ultimately, killed his inner Vader simultaneously. Had he not been able to wake up the latent Anakin in Vader, however, he would have had to kill him... because it was necessary.

The Force, speaking through Obi-Wan and Yoda, is telling him exactly what he needs to hear to succeed one way or the other.

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Another reading could be that Luke should be prepared to have to kill his father since it is not some kind of predetermined destiny that Vader overcome his issues and allow the good in himself to determine his actions. He could just as well killed Luke in rage; decided that it would be easier to turn Leia to his side and done away with Luke, who has been given many chances to join him; killed Luke so he could clone him and raise Luuke from the beginning; found power to sweet to give in in the good in himself; etc.

 

A Force ghost of Qui-Gon on Mortis told Obi-Wan he believed that Anakin was the Chosen One, i.e. the Force believes Anakin is the Chosen One.

Said Chosen One slaughters countless people.

The Force now tells us how you may or may not be able to stop the Chosen One it endorsed in the first place.

In a galaxy where all the worst possible things can happen to someone and even the worst of it happening to good people is to be told that it was the will of the Force, then it's clear the will of the Force does not have the wellbeing of anyone in its goals. If you don't do what you are told (by Force ghosts) out of fear it's not to your benefit, you are accused of being selfish etc (It's even worse in the real world when fallible people are telling you what to do in religion, not Force ghosts). So you end up doing it.

I know good people in real life who have died sad and lonely in old age wondering whether all the selfless and good things were worth it. Their only comfort was that supposedly another life awaited where it would be clear the pain had meaning. Luckily Luke gets this comfort at age 19 (Anakin never got it). Star Wars becomes less relatable as a parable for the real world if the characters have comfort of an afterlife that we do not.

I think there are valid criticisms of religion/Jedi teachings here and I think Luke may get into that in 8. I'm not sure how Force ghosts will figure into 8, but it wouldn't surprise me that if they are against Luke ending the Jedi (the Force is against Luke ending the Jedi), Luke says I'm sorry, we did things your way before and we need to do what's best for us here on the ground. The Force told Luke not to go to Bespin in ESB. If he had not done so, Leia would have been enslaved and turned by Vader because R2 would not have fixed the Falcon.

 

This is a really popular take -- and it may be correct (it certainly was the POV pushed by authors in Legends, and maybe there's NU stuff too) -- but I've long disagreed. Especially since it's not a necessary take.

Luke doesn't say "I won't give up on my father", or wtte.

He says he can't kill his own father. That's he's not even willing to face him if that's a possibility.

That is the scenario that Ben objects to. Would Luke be saying this of an alternate reality Darth Vader who wasn't his father? Just because he'd felt a pinch of goodness in him? No, of course not.

For me, this is a moment where Luke reveals himself to be hung up on familial attachment. Which is distressingly familiar to anyone who knew his father's story. If Luke is not able to kill his own father, even if it is the only way to end his evil, then he's not choosing the high road or anything else.

You think Vader would be standing there at the end, awed by his own son, if he thought his redemptive overtures were just the result of a a little boy who wanted his daddy?

No, he's in awe because Luke Skywalker is Good. Luke didn't reach out throughout their duel and spare him at the end because he "couldn't kill his own father", but because he wouldn't kill a man who could be saved.

I won't die on this hill, and I can accept the lesser interpretation... but it is lesser.

 

I think that makes values judgements which the Force seems to be a bit beyond. A lot of people were upset Vader got redeemed but the Jedi's Force is pure Light and Love.

I also liked how Ajunta Pall managed to be redeemed simply by letting go of his hate and letting himself go into the Light.



9:30

 

How does one decide if killing someone is the only way to end evil? Who makes that choice? It's entirely within the realm of reason that the New Republic arrests Vader and sentences him to life imprisonment.

The flip side of the coin is we see exactly what happens when Mace Windu makes the choice that killing Palpatine is the only way to end his evil. It wasn't pretty.

Non-attachment is an ideal, but it's not a reality. In the end, Luke was pretty darn attached to his students so much he ran off after Kylo slaughtered them. I would argue a lifetime of trying to live to an impossible non-attachment ideal made him unable to properly handle the emotions that came. If he had been taught to have attachments and deal with them normally, he may have been functional enough to stick around with the fight against the First Order in TFA, actively work to prevent Starkiller (saving the lives on Hosnian) etc.

I think we're seeing here again that forcing non-attachment ideals on living human beings isn't working. Even if Luke didn't turn evil, he basically became a literal human BSOD (computer blue screen of death) after the Jedi massacre by Kylo.

 

My inclination is the Force isn't overly complicated from a Western morality POV. The Light encourages people to fight evil but favors mercy over violence. Yet doesn't disdain violence if it is an absolute necessity.

Stopping Palpatine from doing evil allows it.

But if Palpatine could be redeemed, it would be better.

 

Ulicus: This interpretation of Ben's advice is great and I want to embrace it wholeheartedly but it problematizes the actions Luke does take in that scene, because he's constantly appealing to his and Vader's familiar bond, and then is willing to be killed himself. Though, this ties in somewhat to the assertion that Vader turns because Luke is Good - Luke refuses to do the Emperor's bidding and kill out of anger. He'd rather not fight at all, which is perhaps an example of Luke surpassing his teachers - Luke's cries of "Father, please!" notwithstanding, Luke has made the assertion that he is a Jedi like his father, and this is what a Jedi like his father should do. (I wish we'd seen more of that Jedi in the prequels.)

This is a good point, but it bears remembering that the Jedi seem certain that it's impossible for almost anyone to return from the dark side. I'd wager this is a feeling they get from thousands of years of experience rather than just blind arrogance.

I often wonder what would have happened if Mace Windu had said, "Thanks for the tip, kid. You're coming with us to arrest him. I don't know if I believe in this prophecy, but I know something about hedging my bets." Ironically, Anakin turning on Palpatine but deciding not to kill him on the spot is the most Jedi moment he has in the entire trilogy.

I think this is still a case of misunderstanding the idea of nonattachment - Jedi have friends, and they have emotions all the time. This is why Luke is devastated by what he must see as a monumental failure, and his own fault. Which makes sense, considering he doesn't really know what he's doing!

 

Double Post

 

Yeah it is. And that might have happened if Vader had survived his injuries. What's your point?

Luke is telling Ben that he won't even confront Darth Vader, as Yoda asked, because of their familial relationship.

Obi-Wan's just keeping it real.

But he wasn't wrong to force the confrontation.

 

In fact there's a rather simple summary of how the Lightside regards violence.

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack."

Edit:

My inclination for Force Ghosts is that I'm inclined to believe they aren't actually the Force communicating through the image of the dead. I'm inclined to state Obi-Wan Kenobi is actually Obi-Wan Kenobi. He's immortal and unkillable (because he's dead) but he's not omniscient or omnipotent. He's a spirit and arguably a deity (certainly part of a deity) but still fundamentally a distinct and individual entity.

Which is followed up on the fact that he's a GoodTM man but also wrong in how to handle Anakin.