Lit "Unlearn what you have learned" - The Jedi Thread

I frankly don't think Luke throwing away his lightsaber was a conscious well-thought out choice there.

Mind you, the Emperor had said he was unarmed and showed no sign of resisting too.

It's very likely Luke in that moment didn't think he was about to be flash fried.

 

Agreed, but I don't think it was because he was thinking in terms of certainty. In the moment where he realizes he's close to becoming what his father became, it's about something besides the Death Star entirely.

No, but in that moment Luke made a bold pronouncement in the room with two Sith Lords and disarmed himself (no pun) to underscore what a Jedi he was. I don't think he knew what was coming, but he knew he didn't intend to defend himself.

 

"Soon I'll be dead, and you with me."

 

This is right before Sheev informs him it's a trap.

 

Yeah, I was way late, that was a response to quite a few posts up the previous page.

 

I'm not sure what we're debating at this point. If Luke had a plan, it was contingent upon his understanding that there wasn't a trap. When he fails to redeem Vader on the moon, his plan ended, and he expected to die on the Death Star. There's no further plan, just Luke winging it. I don't think he intended to face the Emperor or had any belief that he would defeat him, and was kind of hoping the Death Star exploding would take care of that.

 

Plans? Luke is a dog chasing cars!

 

This thread has been moving too fast for me today. Haha.

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The discussion hearkens back to an earlier question of Luke's willingness to confront/kill Vader. It was said that Luke had to face the possibility of having to kill Vader. So the question is, now that he's not as sure the Death Star is going to explode, how would Luke's decision to toss away his weapon factor into that model.

 

Luke is completely scatter-brained during the entire ordeal and constantly changing his mind as to what to do. Certainly, he was within inches of killing his father.

And at one point gives up on him "Then my father is truly dead."

While Luke can't kill Vader, he's also prepared to let his friends/The Alliance do it.

 

I don't think the scatter-brained thing tracks from a storytelling perspective. Surely, he's pulled between two extremes, but realizing what he could become and throwing away his weapon is his endgame decision.

As for discussions of Force ghosts and dark side illusions, I watched the Darth Bane scene from Clone Wars again and here's a bit of dialogue:



DARTH BANE: Have you come to be my apprentice? You must kill me to gain my place.
YODA: Dead you are, already.
DARTH BANE: (laughing) Then what stands before you?
YODA: An illusion. Real, you are not.
DARTH BANE: You do not fear me?
YODA: No. Exist, you do not anymore.

And then he wails and goes poof. Certainly this is pretty different from what we see of Jedi ghosts. I'm not sure it's entirely wrong to imagine this as Bane's essence clinging to the material world, but it seems appropriate that he doesn't even know he's dead.

 

I think Bane knows Yoda is completely missing the forest for the trees.

If he can't acknowledge even a Sith spirit is real, he can't see the doom coming.

 

The thing is, places strong with the dark side give wild visions. The cave on Dagobah, the Well of the Dark Side, and obviously Moraband(Korriban).

We know Vader wasnt literally on Dagobah. Obviously all the things in Anakin's vision in the Well didnt happen right then. Bane need not literally be there.

That said, it's the Force. It's everywhere and everywhen. It can be ambiguous, as DM said earlier. If we are to take it as Bane's ghost being there it's important to make a qualitative difference between a Jedi Force spirit and a Sith ghost. And i am using those terms intentionally here. A) the recent Black Series Walgreens exclusive Obi-Wan is "Obi-Wan Kenobi(Force Spirit)." The POTF2 figures of Obi-Wan, Yoda and Anakin were likewise called "Jedi Spirits." B) we can draw from Chinese eschatology to refer to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungry_ghost.

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I know TCW Netflix season is only canon and the Bane trilogy is legends... but in the Bane books Bane kinda stops existing. After he has that mind battle he is lost in the void forever, his soul will never rest in peace. When watching that scene the first time, I thought it was that Bane was not actually Bane. I still do not think he was actually Bane. My first guess, as Yoda said, was an illusion. My second, possibly his holocron? I doubted it though because of all the locks Bane put on it.

In response to the comment on the last page about an infinities comic during VII where Luke dies during VI, it would pretty much be the same just without the last three seconds right? (jk)

One thing I would love to discuss in this thread is the SIth Triumvirate. With Sion, Nihlus and Traya. They are all so interesting. How has Nihlus become that powerful to use Force Storms, and to that scale? Sion using the Force to literally hold his body together, practically making him a zombie of sorts? (but not really.) Then there is Traya. She still confuses me, I know I had friends who could tell she was definitely sith the entire game, but she really seemed to want to help Meetra. What motivated her? I know she (and Sion) loved Meetra, but how was that love so strong? Some of these could have been answered in game and I could have missed it, but they are all so different by Sith standards, and it is interesting to think about those three and why they did what they did.

 

MFW

 

Why is everyone in such denial about Bane being an illusion? The Priestesses tell Yoda that they created the illusions.

 

Could just be my affection for Legends Korriban, but I'm attracted to the idea that the vergence in the dark side surrounding the corrupted remains of a significantly powerful dark sider might produce echoes of that person.

But, true enough, the Priestesses seem to say Yoda's journey is their doing.

 

One thing about the Force that I feel gets glossed over a lot is the real corrupting power of the Dark Side. The Dark Side of the Force isn't some scientific energy field. It's a deep and complex mystical energy that only Force-sensitives can tap into, and even then only by harnessing their anger and hatred. The relationship between a Dark-Sider and the Force is a symbiotic one, but unlike the Light Side, the Dark Side is parasitic and harmful. A Dark-Sider can obtain incredible power by tapping into their anger but the price is often their sanity, morality and in many cases their soul.

It's easy to get angry. It's easy to let that rage fill you and fuel you, acting on your impulses and negative emotions. That's why the Dark Side is so easy to aid a user in a fight. It's quicker, easier, and of course, seductive. Who doesn't want to take the easy way out? To find a quick answer to their problems. The Dark Side tempts and promises and it does deliver on those promises, after a fashion. But the price is always higher than one thinks and in the end, the Dark Side warps a person's very being.

That's the aspect that get's glossed over so much. The Dark Side changes people, warps their morality, twists their beliefs and subtly alters their worldview, persuading them to focus on their selfish desires. The cycle perpetuates as the user grows stronger and angrier, lashing out more and more. Palpatine says it best to Vader.



Once the Dark Side has you in it's grip, it's very hard to break free, primarily because the person usually doesn't want to break free. The reason the Jedi caution against the Dark Side so much is because once you step down that dark path, it will forever be a part of you. Just as Yoda said.

 

dark side*

pls for my sanity

 

I sort of suspect those that start down that path already have it as a part of them.

See: the cave

 

Everyone has it within them. You have to conquer it.

 

@BobaMatt: THANK YOU for making that point.

It's not that the "Dark Side" doesn't exist - spots like the Dagobah cave prove that corrupt Force nexii can be created, intentionally or not - it's that people seem to either forget or gloss over Yoda's reply to Luke about what's in the cave:

"Only what you take with you."

It's the Trial of the Spirit from Tartakovsky's TCW. This is not facing some SW-version of Old Scratch beckoning with outstretched finger and a carnival barker's outfit, it's overcoming one's own inner darkness. The dark side corrupts because it reinforces and amplifies what darkness is already there; after the Force-sensitive gets hooked, it's a drug, seductive and quick and easy and so hideously deforming once the user hits bottom.

Mortis has long grated on me; it'd be much easier to take it as a collective Force fever-dream among Vaderkin, Obi-Wan and Ahsoka if it hadn't been bundled in with the Celestials in FOTJ (a train-wreck for so very many reasons, but let's move on).

Dualism is, itself, hideously destructive; labeling someone "evil" for their differences is what starts so many cycles of violence, and the Jedi of Legends (TOR specifically) failed to prevent the Korriban Genocide (or near-genocide, since clearly some Red Sith or Sith Purebloods survived to be part of the Empire of the time).

None of this, of course, is to excuse evil; the Jedi of Legends also failed in standing against clear evil (their hand-waving AFA "respect local customs," regardless of whether or not said customs were not morally right - and yes, there's some things that are not morally right, regardless of cultural norms). Dragging their heels in the Pius Dea Crusades, failing to get more direct with the Hutts re: slavery, and recruiting impressionable innocents (may Simikarty burn in Chaos ) - the Order has some dark moments in its past.

As for rewriting history? Yeah ... The Jedi Path deals with that in its bestiary pages. Quoting Bowspritz, Jedi biologist: Other creatures can do even more remarkable things, such as projecting bubbles that push the Force away, but the Council has quarantined such worlds, and full instruction on these creatures will come when you are older.

Somebody was protecting their power base by sealing away Myrkr and the ysalamiri ...

And divergent views? Teepo Paladins and Djinn Altis would have some choice commentary on how "tolerant" the Order was. At least in Altis' case, he got to walk away in a somewhat polite split with the Order (why Yoda had less of an issue with him than, say, Leor Hal is a bit confusing, but maybe that's just me).

As for the Sith Order - I've said it before: they're either greedmongers who delude themselves on their power trip, or that disgruntled neighbor kid who plays at being a devil-worshipper. Setting aside Valkorion - who's a whole kettle of kriffed-up besides his later views on the Sith - the Sith Empire of TOR only really has legitimacy AFA mistrusting the Republic following the horror at Korriban. If they'd remained the c. 3000s version of the Imperial Remnant, I'd be more sympathetic; as it is, they're greedmongers.

The Je'daii of Dawn of the Jedi are what I'd like to see AFA "Grey Jedi" (a term I personally find grating). Neither deny nor wallow in either light-blinded self-righteousness nor "EEEVVVILLLL MUWHAHAHAHA!!!!"

Most people aren't shallow caricatures. Neither should Force-users be so dualistic.

 

The problem i have with the Je'daii is that their philosophy clearly leads to no good. For all their chatter about balance, their response to pure dark side-using Rakatan invaders and their minions(Force hounds and Flesh Raiders) is to also use the dark side for fighting and powering Forcesabers. None of them thought to counter balance the Rakata with knowledge and defense. They were just as aggressive. Their philosophy was manageable in peacetime, but because they relegated all their martial teachings to use of the dark side, they compounded the imbalance in the Force that they allegedly sought to avoid.

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Luke fails his test the first time. Yoda passes his.

The thing is, aligning yourself with the dark side turns you into a shallow caricature. You said it yourself: "The dark side corrupts because it reinforces and amplifies what darkness is already there; after the Force-sensitive gets hooked, it's a drug, seductive and quick and easy and so hideously deforming once the user hits bottom." And that's why the Je'daii abandon the idea that you can use the dark side responsibly.

 

Light=Good
Balance=Good
Dark Side = Bad