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I agree, AshiusX.

Although I did like TFA, I felt like the characters felt a little too "manufactured." Like a checklist was used, indeed.

 

None of your post refutes my statement, even though your 'No' seems to imply that you think it does. I can't see how my statement is up for debate? It's clear by constantly revising the films Lucas does not see them as completed versions of his 'vision.' This should be self-evident. If not, why would he evidence everything opposite to that in his actions and his words? Why would he revise the films if he thought they were the best they could ever be already? It's clear he does not think that, and that's why he worked on them ongoing in such a way. "Films aren't finished, they're abandoned," he has said. Lucas has a view that as long as the artist doesn't consider something finished, it isn't. So you work on it and work on it until it finally matches what you wanted.

I'm not saying I agree with it. But I'm separating myself from Lucas' wants here, and I'm not imposing my worldview on him. I am letting him speak for himself and it's clear how he sees things. Now, we can respect him for his choice or not. Your argument boils down to the audience deciding what should be done with an artist's art. That's fine. You are free to think that and hold that standard against Lucas if you wish. All I am explaining is that Lucas has a different view, and within the way he sees things (which is not how you see things), it all makes sense and is perfectly justified. Regardless of what Lucas has said elsewhere, he clearly believes that it all comes down to the artist's wishes. If any artist honestly wanted their film to be colorized, I doubt Lucas would raise an objection. His whole notion is constructed upon the artist having the right to trump everyone else. Kafka wanted all his works burned. They were preserved instead, over-riding Kafka's dying wishes. Most people are happy about that. I'm guessing Lucas would not be. Like most things, the difference comes down to how you see the world and how you deal with what's in it.

 

xezene

You seemed to have adopted Lucas' point of view of the issue and I provided a counterpoint. Still, as somebody who resents the villification of George Lucas (I concur) why pour salt into old wounds and remind us of this issue by providing the one particular quote where Lucas insulted the part of the audience (which BTW financed his "empire") that enjoyed and loved his ""rough"" ""draft"".

 

I do not adopt Lucas' point of view. Since when is simply explaining someone's point of view the same as adopting it? As I repeatedly said, I'd like to see the originals released just like you do. I simply respect Lucas' view of the issue even if I disagree with him. That's why I took the time to give his perspective it's full credit. I can separate my disagreement with him from my respect for him. Therefore I do not vilify him for it. Whether people feel 'insulted' or not is completely subjective. I do not feel insulted -- that would suggest that I am entitled to his art, which I am not. I would however like to eventually see the originals released, as I detested some changes made recently, especially to Return of the Jedi. But again, though I disagree with him and I'd like it to be otherwise, I still respect him and his decision and therefore can handle the fact that the originals may never be released.

 

Kylo Ren is so much better than Darth Caedus.

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xezene wrote

I simply respect Lucas' view of the issue even if I disagree with him.

Would you also respect truth from a certain point of view (which IMHO is the core of the issue), knowing that it's just spin-doctored propaganda, and publish it?

I'm someone who advocates "deeds, not words" and whenever it comes to the Special Edition I take a look at the final product. What purpose did the Special Edition actually serve? IMHO, it

1. showcased late 1990's CGI capabilities and
2. revived interest in Star Wars

As such it was first and foremost a warm-up excercise for the Prequel Trilogy, i.e. ultimately not much else than a tool to showcase the advancements of CGI technology and a marketing vehicle paving the way for the Prequel Trilogy.

Did it in any way improve the "rough drafts" or add crucial elements to the already existing story? No.

Did it really add missing dialogue to moving lips, restore editing flaws to their sequential order or correct all production mistakes? No.

Did it really show all the things that Lucas supposedly had wanted to do, but couldn't back in 1976 and 1977?

Well, had he really wanted Greedo to shoot first, he could have done that already back in 1976.

Had he really wanted to show the Wampa eating in his cave he could have done that back in 1979, too

Had he really wanted a pimped up musical number in Jabba's Palace in 1982, the musical instruments necessary for that already existed back, then.

All he did was somehow pimp the OT to make it partially more palatable to audiences' tastes of the 1990s. I'm unable to see any esoteric artistic ambitions or the like.
Where originally VFX had just been tools to tell his story, the story had now become the means to showcase the tools.

And when that happened you could almost say, from a certain point of view, that George "Anakin" Lucas was murdered by George "Vader" Lucas (I officially submit this as an unpopular opinion): "That original, theatrical version has no longer any meaning for me".

 

You wrote a lot regarding my rather small comment of respecting another person's decisions, and I see it has garnered some likes. You've explained your issues with the originals being altered. I'm telling you: I do not disagree. For the third -- and maybe last? -- time. I am not saying I AGREE with what Lucas did. Okay? The truth is, like with all things, some of the changes he made were good, and some were not. There were some shots from the special editions that looked spectacular, and some that did not. Some serviced the story while some didn't. But you know what? It doesn't even matter. Here we are, as grown men, worrying in 2016 about whether Greedo really should have shot first back in 1977 or not. Isn't that a little sad? As an adult man, I can handle the fact that the original versions of a space opera might not be released. There are bigger things to disrespect people over. Because all of that is meaningless. And even if it did have meaning, guess who gets to decide it? Not us. George. I can tell you really don't like that part of the equation. Well, I'm sorry, but sometimes things are like that. We don't get to decide. George does. I've listened to why he's made the changes. Even if he's changed his mind since the 70s on some things, his view is relatively consistent. I'm telling you I respect him for that. In spite of my disagreement with the results.

You seem to be symbolizing the kind of fan I wrote against in my original post. Beyond this, you seem to be so far in your bubble of admiration for Star Wars that you cannot step outside it. I already agree with you that I would like the originals to be released, and I already agree with you that some changes were unnecessary. You could even argue all changes were unnecessary, and I could see your point. I could concede all these things. Yet, I said that, in spite of my disagreements with him and his choices, I respect his viewpoint as a human being. That doesn't seem to be enough for you. You want me to go so far in my fan(atacism) for a space movie that I will actively disrespect the one who made what we all love and who has given so much to humanity, all over whether he should alter his art that he owns the rights to? Just because I like it a lot and don't want him to? Well, I won't, and it's a very, very childish attitude to expect people to do that. Or even to do it yourself.

Give me a break. 'Spin-doctored propaganda?' Do you really believe what you say? Or do any of those other people who liked your post actually believe that? You think that George Lucas is, and has been, for many years, purposely misleading fans, misdirecting them here and there, lying about his artistic intentions, all for his grand plot of... what? What would be the goal? And the notion that Lucas has a spin doctor? Or is one himself? This is not an opinion that any thinking person can respect because there is no evidence whatsoever for it.

The actual truth of it is that Lucas is a human being. A what? Oh yeah, that's right, a human being. That means that he's not always consistent like a robot in every single instance. He's got multiple reasons for things, and sometimes he says different ones, and sometimes his ideas are in the process of changing. Lucas is someone who always has ideas floating around in his head, and if you actually listen to him he usually has pretty good reasons for what he thinks. I am impressed that you, random internet user, have uncovered this grand spin-doctored propaganda plot without even having to consult Lucas to figure out, if you know, he really did mean what he has said in all those hundreds of interviews he's given over 40 years. But are you gonna listen to what I have to say? Doubt it.

I respect Lucas the human being for his reasoning even if I don't agree with the end result. He's not the only person in history to think what he thinks. It's a valid viewpoint. It may not be what you or I like, but guess what? We don't get everything we like. That's what we're supposed to learn as small children, but apparently with mixed results.

The internet doesn't like to hear that it's opinions don't matter. It wants what it wants, and it's right and we should get it, for reasons A B and C, anything else be damned. In this instance, the internet's opinions don't matter. Yours and my opinions don't matter. As always, the response to that is predictable.

The good news is you will be happy very soon. I'm sure that Disney will be rolling out the originals any year now, against the creator's wishes, and that will please most people. And if this ever happens again, you will also be happy. Disney knows they can make money wherever and as long as you ask, they'll give. That's how it's supposed to be, right? They are the manufacturer, and you are the consumer. Customer's always right, you know. That's how art works these days... and how it should work, right? Well, if you believe that, you are in for good things ahead. But Lucas wasn't in it for the money. Think how much money he could have made if he had released the originals? And yet he didn't. And I respect someone who is in it for more than just short-term profit and getting easy acclaim from people. He took the hard road and will endlessly be hated by short-sighted people, and disrespected by people with viewpoints like your own. But for that, my respect for George increases. So, you gonna argue that my respect is misplaced? That, instead of respecting the man who walks alone by his own code, I should fall in line and clamor for what isn't mine? Sorry. Though I'm sure you'll find much success among the internet fandom -- they'll eat what you are saying right up, as evidenced already. I should thank you for proving my point.

 

Hmm..

Woo nelly batman, this thread just went from 0-100!

 

That's a spin off I'd like to see "Lucas the Human Being".
It could go anywhere.

 

Technically speaking your replies seem to be much longer in comparison.

I have to deal with it, but we are objectively talking about the culturally most influential film(s) of the 20th Century, yet new generations (and the old ones) are deliberately kept from experiencing these in their original context because the filmmaker says so.
Yet a rather insignificant comedy show (The Three Stooges) must be experienced in its original context according to the same filmmaker.

I vividly remember George Lucas claiming in an interview, that he had always intended Darth Vader to be Luke's father. That's incorrect. In the home video documentary From Star Wars to Jedi - The Making of a Galaxy, George Lucas, sitting behind his desk, said candidly that changing Vader into Lukes father (in ESB) was the right thing to do.
Him saying the theatrical versions were just a "rough draft" falls into the same category, IMHO.
I'm not a psychologist so I have absolutely no idea why George Lucas did some of the things he did. I just never understood why he felt the need to create such myths, as if people would think less of him had he told him why he really did some things the way he did.

And George Lucas should be one of them, since he felt that you, me and everybody else should be able to experience movies in their original and unaltered historical context like The Three Stooges.

I have nothing but the sincerest and deepest appreciation for the young George Lucas and his stamina and persistence he demonstrated when he made the OT. This doesn't automatically imply that I need to agree with everything he later did or believe everything he later said, and retroactively labeling the original versions to "rough drafts" is just one of these things. You promoted his point of view, I presented a counterpoint. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

Bob Iger and Alan Horn ruined the Sequel Trilogy. Before it´s even finished.

 

How so? How did they specifically? As far as I know they don't have much creative input at all. They purely supervise and suggest improvements.

 

Ditching Lucas´s story, ditching the original screenplay Lucas and Arndt worked on together, firing Arndt, kicking Lucas out of the creative proces, hiring the OT only worshipping hacks like JJ. Abrams, buttkissing the OT fanboys, deciding "to do a retro movie", you name it.

 

You must be a lot of fun.

 

Snoke is Darth Plageuis

 

Agreed. I think they seem very 'safe' in how they were constructed. I want flaws, dammit.

 

The Holiday Special is better than Spaceballs.

 

..................I like Anakin Skywalker! As we see him in Ep. I-III!










.........There, I said it..........

 

I hear what you are saying, but I think it was done purposely much like ANH was in 1977. Although Rey, Finn and Poe seem like safe, likeable characters, I think that they will flesh them out in Episode 8 & 9 (mostly Rey & Finn).

Episode 7 had the huge task of introducing new characters/new story, yet re-introducing all of the OT characters so something had to give in the movie. I think Disney/JJ/Kathleen Kennedy/Larry Kasdan all decided that TFA was going to give you 'just enough' of everything, and Episode 8 & 9 will dig deeper into the characters, the story, the mythology.

Yes, they could have made a 3 hour SW movie and really fleshed out Rey and Finns characters, but SW is not Lord of the Rings. SW are 2 hour movies that move from point A to point B and never stop.

 

It felt different from ANH for me certainly.

Han in ANH was a bit of a selfish jerk until they reached Yavin 4. Where his selfish persona wore off, Han basically become Luke's ''friendly older brother''. Same applies to Leia. During the first moments we see her, she is a bit of a stuck up princess. But time of dangers, she shown her human side.


So I mean to say the likability of ANH's characters felt more more ''organic'' to me.

 

Well hey now! This is the unpopular opinions thread! Everyone we all have our fair share of "fun" in us


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We know literally nothing about Lucas's script and or his ideas for the ST. It seems like he is making the assumption just because Lucas has a hand in it it will be better.

Maybe Lucas's ideas for the ST are better. But we know nothing.

 

Not entirely true. We do know some of the storyboards of ardnts script but I have only seen a few.

 

As much as I agree (TFA was depressing to see opening night - like it was being murdered scene by scene in some sorta parody), I don't blame them.

I have to call you out on certain things though because you are wrong.

Lucas left a Story treatment for Lucasfilm as a possible route but that wasn't the story, he knew that- he left it because that's where he would have taken it. (I agree though it's probably better than what we got). You can't honestly say that any filmmaker would pick up a script and adapt it fully without changing the slightest bit. Even GL would have changed it through the process, naturally as he saw fit.

Lucas was never involved in the Creative Process, he hadn't been involved once the company was signed over. He (as far as officially known, and I believe that this is the case) never visited production at any stage. He wasn't kicked out, he decided he didn't want to do it (because "the films I make are always moaned at, so what's the point?" Paraphrasing but he is right however wrong I think he is for taking it to heart).

Arndt being fired didn't happen. He came to the agreement to leave because the studio decided he wouldn't meet the release date at the rate he was working. Naturally, not off the cuff. Maybe it was the work itself that was not what they wanted but officially nothing like that has been stated. Rumour wise though that could have been the case.

Hiring JJ was one of the earliest things they did, and I suspect under GL's instructions. JJ might be "a hack" (both sides have a point) but the Star Trek films proved he had an appreciation of the OT and they slightly harkened to that.
JJ was a friend of GL and Steven Spielberg since he was little because he edited some of SS's old home movies together. Naturally it fits.

OT worshipping as well, well yeah. Most people that grew up with those films, love them. JJ wanted more of what he had as a child. Is he wrong to do that? (No but it was a little too much and I wanted something different)

Butkissing the OT fanboys, yeah well again you can't market it foe those that liked the Prequels because the general public think they suck (they are idiots). The film had to. HAD TOO. overcome that general attitude against SW that existed everywhere and was generally made fun off.
Nostalgia works and the OT to most people is SW and the only SW.

Deciding to do a retro movie again was a decision to overcome that CGI terror of the Prequels. People didn't like it so they had to win them over again.


I may sound rude but it makes sense, however much I didn't like it and didn't like the end result. They enjoyed making the film for everyone and put everything into it.

 

I still have high hopes for episode 8. There are rumors that Rey is supposed to be next reincarnation of the next ''Chosen one'' if they attempt something like that, then it would be awesome. It shown us that they really do care about the prequels and willing to take concepts from it and build on it. Seeing a running idea from the prequels endure in the ST.