Saga Unpopular Star Wars opinions!

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Feelicks, Feb 23, 2013.

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  1. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    Yep, that's pretty much it.

    "Everybody was upset. I was struggling with the problem that I had this sort of climactic scene that had no climax about two-thirds of the way through the film. I had another problem in the fact that there was no real threat in the Death Star. The villains were like tenpins; you get into a gunfight with them and they just get knocked over. As I originally wrote it, Ben Kenobi and Vader had a sword fight and Ben hits a door and the door slams closed and they all run away and Vader is left standing there with egg oil on his face. This was dumb; they run into the Death Star and they sort of take over everything and they run back. It totally diminished any impact the Death Star had."

    It was like the old Bob Steele westerns where they all had about fifty shots in their six-shooters.

    "Right, but those kind of things dissipate without having a lot of real cruel torture scenes and real unpleasant scenes with the bad guys in order to create them as being bad or make them a threat. I was walking that thin line between making something that I thought was vaguely a nonviolent kind of movie but at the same time I was having all the fun of people getting shot. And I was very careful that most of the people that are shot in the film were the monsters or those storm-troopers in armored suits. Anyway, I was rewriting, I was struggling with that plot problem when my wife suggested that I kill off Ben, which she thought was a pretty outrageous idea, and I said, 'Well, that is an interesting idea, and I had been thinking about it.' Her first idea was to have Threepio get shot, and I said impossible because I wanted to start and end the film with the robots, I wanted the film to really be about the robots and have the theme be framework for the rest of the movie. But then the more I thought about Ben getting killed the more I liked the idea because, one, it made the threat of Vader greater and that tied in with The Force and the fact that he could use the dark side. Both Alec Guinness and I came up with the thing of having Ben go on afterward as part of The Force. There was a thematic idea that was even stronger about The Force in the earliest scripts. It was really about The Force, a Castaneda Tales of Power thing."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stone interview; 1977.


    So blame George and Marcia.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber and FRAGWAGON like this.
  2. Ittoogami Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 9, 2014
    Jake Lloyd did not suck as an actor and was an ok pick for Anakin as a boy. It was not his fault that TPM was a mess.
    Jarren_Lee-Saber likes this.
  3. Cushing's Admirer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 8, 2006
    star 6
    Thanks for the answers but I don't see Obi being a ghost as a 'cheap concept'. I likewise concur with PH at wondering if non-Jedi can/do have the ability. I have no reason not to consider that Sith and every day sapients as not having the ability just because it's not shown. And as I said before I don't pay attention much to EU when it comes to much of anything nor do I see GL as consistent. Largely I only go by the films now.
  4. TOSCHESTATION Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 17, 2003
    star 4
    That, in itself, might be enough of a problem for some.
  5. Lord Miggler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2013
    star 1
    I get the reservations with force ghosts, I think there are a few condradictions that became present in the OT (Anakin/Vader not disappearing at death probably the biggest and although there are possibles explanations the question will always be there). Those contradictions are compounded further with the PT trying to give some sort of explanation on how Yoda and Obi Wan developed the ability (through Qui Gon and years of training in solitude after ROTS). All of which gives the impression Anakin was in no way privy to it so then how could he do it.

    I agreed with PH it does lesson the impact of the scene of Bens death slightly especially once he takes full spectrul form and appears to Luke in Empire and Jedi, but conversely it does really add to the mystique of the Jedi and of Yoda and Ben more so, given that they were the only ones capable of the feat (Possibly Qui Gon, later Anakin)

    Personally I always saw it as simple plot device to help Luke whilst being a means of driving his story forward and also helps keep that connection to the force that for Luke who at that stage probably felt it was lost, to hear Ben's voice which could be interpreted as a voice or vision in his head or a manifestation created by him being connected to and using the force. Up until near the end of Empire when we know Luke's abilities have indeed grown stronger and Ben appears properly in ghost form it helped to keep that connection.

    Obviously it's evolved to be a feature of the story and it's been cannily done by GL but it's not without its issues, personally I still find it quite an interesting thread from both the PT and OT, one that I would like to see explored further in the ST.
    Last edited by Lord Miggler, Mar 10, 2014
  6. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    Lucas changes his mind a lot, but it doesn't bother me that much.
  7. DanielUK Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 3
    I *hate* the droids. So much.
  8. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9

    Prior to ROTS, the issue of ghosts was that only those strong enough in the Force could do this, but for the Sith and other dark side users, it is like a living hell for them. This according to Palpatine in "Empire's End". But with ROTS, this became an issue as Lucas wrote that only a Jedi or someone on of the light of the Force could do it. It requires no thought of self, no attachment, only a complete and total compassion. Something that a Sith Lord cannot do.

    Which is why Yoda and Obi-wan help him out. Note in ANH that he stomps on Obi-wan's robes as if he's suspecting a trick of some sort.
    Iron_lord likes this.
  9. Lord Miggler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2013
    star 1
    Surely Vader's stepping on the robes to make sure it's not a trick only compounds him never being aware of it further. Obi-Wan and Yoda helping him out is a very big leap with little or no evidence to support it and certainly not this. Like I say if anything the PT inadvertently makes it even more a grey area as we all perceived that after ROTJ all Jedi and possibly all force users could achieve it.

    Personally it isn't something that bothers me but it's there, like I said earlier what he's done although causing a bit of a hole adds more in other areas, so much so that it's something I would like to see developed further.
    Last edited by Lord Miggler, Mar 10, 2014
  10. Green Gogol Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    For those saying that an elected queen is ridiculous, I suggest you do a google search about elective monarchy...
  11. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    Not the same thing.
  12. Green Gogol Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    So a monarchy where the monarch is elected is not the same thing as a queen being elected. How so?
  13. Vthuil Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2013
    star 4
    The idea of elective monarchy, as it manifested in real history, normally involved nobles voting for a ruler from one of several specific families. You couldn't have Joe Q. Peasant from off of the street declare that he was running for king.

    Naboo, on the other hand, appears to be a standard democracy where the title for the head of state is king/queen.
  14. Green Gogol Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 11, 2014
    Well, the election mode is a bit different from most historical examples. But once in power she seems to function like a queen.
  15. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Maybe on screen, but Lucas mentioned it in the ROTJ DVD commentary and the idea also appeared in the Annotated Screenplays ( where it was a reference to Yoda doing it ). It's also covered in the Ryder Windham books The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader and The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi ( where Obi-Wan did it ).
    Last edited by Arawn_Fenn, Mar 10, 2014
    Iron_lord likes this.
  16. Iron_lord Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Indeed. Many EU sources (including Ryder Windham's The Essential Guide to the Force) also took the approach that Vader's body faded away offscreen.
  17. SarlacsDinerParty Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 2, 2014
    star 1
    TESB is not a "better/above" Movie than the others
    Jar jar is underated.....
    Hayden is a great Anakin :D
    Star WARs is NOT adult Entertainment (bracing myself) LOL [face_laugh]

    Star WARs is overly praced and a BIT overrated (love SW, dont get me the wrong way but IT IS !!! )
    I prace SW all the time, but dont like the godly pedestal People put Movies or People on at times. Its redicelus !!!

    Sorry about my typing :)
    FRAGWAGON likes this.
  18. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    In ROTS, Yoda tells Obi-wan that Qui-gon has returned from the Netherrealm of the Force and will train him. We see in ANH and ROTJ that both Jedi Masters vanish upon their deaths, whereas the other Jedi hadn't. You're to infer that when Anakin appears that they helped him. However, as noted, Lucas did address this.

    In the rough draft…Ben explains that…if "Vader becomes one with the dark side of the Force, he will lose all identity. If he turns to the good side, he will pass through the Netherworld" and in the revised rough draft, Yoda "will rescue him before he becomes one with the Force."

    --Lorenzo Bouzereau, explanation from Star Wars The Annotated Screenplays page 300.

    "This little scene where he burns his father's body, it wasn't originally in the script. But I decided it gave more closure in terms of Luke's relationship to his father, letting go of his father. Even though later on, as we get to the end of the movie, as he joins the Force, he was able to retain his original identity, it's because of Obi-Wan and Yoda, who learnt how to do that: how to join the Force at will and then retain your identity. But it was his 'identity as he was when he died as Anakin Skywalker.'"

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.


    bstnsx704 likes this.
  19. Yanksfan Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 3, 2000
    star 5
    I actually don't understand how one could think "Force ghosting" would be possible for non-Jedi. I mean, the technique was clearly mastered by a Jedi (Qui Gon), and we've only seen Jedi come back this way. I mean, does anyone remember a Biggs "Force ghost" congratulating Luke on blowing up the Death Star? I think we're supposed to assume that only Jedi can do this.

    And I don't think "Force-sensitivity" would be enough either. For instance, if Leia had actually died at the Battle of Endor, she wouldn't have had the skill or know-how to return. But, depending on her training in ST, she might be able to do it. I mean, if (gaaah!) Han were do to die in the ST? I wouldn't expect to see him again. And if I did? I wouldn't be all "Yay! Han! Thank god!" But more like "Wait…what? Huh….WTF is this???"
  20. Kenix Killer Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 11, 2014
    I think that the only bad dialogue in the saga is the scene with Anakin and Padme from AotC near the fire place. The "I'm in agony" stuff
    SarlacsDinerParty likes this.
  21. Darth_Articulate Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2012
    star 4
    I like the flimsiness of the Battle Droids. I find them entertaining.
    FRAGWAGON likes this.
  22. I Are The Internets Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Nov 20, 2012
    star 7
    I prefer the droid voices from TPM and AOTC than in ROTS. They sound more menacing.
    mJedi775, TX-20 and Force Smuggler like this.
  23. Lord Miggler Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 6, 2013
    star 1
    http://www.grillwilson.com/2009/09/happy-labor-day-2

    Each to their own but I still feel even as you describe it's a fair old leap considering what we have seen and been told on screen. Also I'm not too concerned with trawling through endless interviews and books to find answers and explanations to inconsistencies on screen, as a film fan that's not really what I want from my movies.
  24. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
    star 9
    It's not a fair leap. In TPM, Qui-gon doesn't disappear. In AOTC and ROTS, no Jedi disappears. In AOTC, Qui-gon is heard by Yoda during the Tusken Slaughter. In ROTS, Yoda tells Obi-wan what he has training for him while he's on Tatooine. Tells him that Qui-gon has learned how to return from the great beyond and that he'll help him to communicate. In ANH, Obi-wan disappears but is heard as a ghost. Vader doesn't know what is going on. In TESB, Obi-wan starts to appear. In ROTJ, Yoda disappears. Later, the two Jedi Masters are seen watching Luke and then Anakin fades in, they look at each other and smile, before turning to Luke. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to connect the dots.

    What Lucas said only cements it.
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  25. scooper121s Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 4, 2014
    star 2
    They were flimsy and so prevalent, because they were cheap and easy to manufacture
    Darth_Articulate likes this.
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