**~Unravelling The Mysteries of the Force~** True Seekers Only...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by LottDodd, Feb 27, 2003.

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  1. LottDodd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2002
    star 4
    Is the Force Better Described as an Energy Field, A Symbiotic Microorganism, Or A Spirtual State of Being?

    Understanding the Force, had always been to me More about understanding the Spiritual Nature of the Universe. An Awareness if You Will. An Intangible Religion.

    Lucas has Always wanted to add in a "Scientific" Explanation to the "Supernatural" Aspects of the Force. It has been described as an "Energy Field Created by all Living Things..." but "Without Midichlorians we would have No Knowledge of the Force."

    Do the Midichlorians Produce the "Energy Field" Or Do they Mearly allow A Jedi to Tap into that Field? Can the Force Be Understood through a Scientific Method? Are their Other ways to Tap into this Energy Field other than the Ways utilised by Jedi, Sith, or your random untrained Force-User.... Scientific Ways?

    Or is this Religion beyond the Realms of Science. More An Emotion State of Being, Filled with Omens and Signs and Dreams? Power drawn from Faith and Will?

    Is the "Force" Merely a work of Fiction, or is their truth, both in it's teachings and physical manifistations, That Apply to the Real WOrld?

    Luminous Beings Are We... Not this Crude Matter.
  2. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    Excellent thread title :D

    I think the midis are only a scientific reason for why certain people can use the force and others can't. It doesn't explain things like how the mind trick is done, or how to levitate objects, etc....

    I've always looked at it as a mysterious energy field. I don't think we'll ever see a truly scientific explanation of it. And I think it's better that way. In fact, I wish that midis were never brought up to tie in the science. The force makes more sense as a magical entity.

    I'm not sure about the teachings of the force, but I do think that the teachings of Yoda have magnificant applications in the real world. I've taught percussion at various places and some of his wisdom is the wisest.

    The Picnic :eek:
  3. VadersLaMent Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 3, 2002
    star 9
    In one model of the Universe everything is a collection of interacting, basic particles called quanta.
    In this method all the "forces" we see take place are exchanges between particles. Gravity may not be the bending of space but instead an exchange between interlocked packets of gravitational energy we would call gravitons.

    Sidestep for a moment. There was a short lived RPG in which the characters you played "awoke" to the singing of the Universe. Everyone was a potential immortal, and had the potential for great powers. SOme of these were very Force-ish, others were flat out super hero powers.
    The way the game played it out was that everything in the Universe is tuned to a frequency, and to manipulate the various forces all one had to do was focus there mind and/or voice to these very specific frequencies, and in various combinations, to use the various powers possible.

    In this sense then The Force is simply another term for all the packets of quanta, and the frequencies produced by them. The midis are simply an enforcement, an extra bit of life that is attuned to the vibrations of quanta, allowing the host of the midis to become more attuned to the Universe, and manipulate the various forces in it.

    Does that take away from the spirituality of The Force? I don't think so. The Universe is deep, you may have been in an area far away from the city lights and marveled at the increased number of stars visible. Imagine your mind and senses opened to a Universe as it sings to you its magestic music. I think that would humble anyone into a deeper sense of being.
  4. stainlesssteelrat Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2003
    I think the 2 philosphies work together. the midiclorians let the Jedi get in touch with the mysterious energy feild that is the force. They (the midi's)are the middlemen.
  5. __clairvoyant__ Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Feb 10, 2003
    Well, I think its an energy field that exists in all the Galaxy, has a divine will based on positive outcome.(The negative always loses in the long-term) Midichlorians are the microscopic things that connect you to this energy field (A contradiction exists here, how can you be connected by them when you are already part of this energy field; this is not the point anyway)
    and give the you the power to use in the way you want.You access it with training etc...Works with your feelings when your mind is quiet....
    Untrained ones have their skills 'active' at minimum, like Anakin with the Pod or Leia starting to sense Luke at the end of ROTJ.

    In Reality, the energy field idea is almost identical to the Japanese Healing Technique Reiki..'Ki'is the universal energy which exists everywhere.If you want to know more about it, read about Feng-Shui also.(search the net, you'll find these things easily.)
    I think the Force can be applied to the real, but it will be hard to explain it scientifically.The Force is just the combination of many beliefs that George and other script writers has, they make it universal by gathering ideas from every type of faith.It is real like bits and pieces from different beliefs, but its too large to associate with one religion to be exact. The Force-users have a will that makes the Force obey their mental commands.They have to clear their minds to telekinise etc...So it is a belief but unclear intentionally so the fans will be obliged to think about it and discuss it.It is a mystery after all...
  6. LottDodd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2002
    star 4
    Does the Force have an Inherent "Light" and "Dark" Side or is that merley a Human (or Alien) Trait that has been subscribed to it??
  7. Darth_Shade Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 9, 2003
    star 1
    I think the force has an inherent dark side and an inherent light side because if the only you have to fear is the anger inside you then why does Anakin being angry lead him to slaughter the keepers of the peace in the galaxy(Just reading sig would have explained my thoughts on the light and dark sides)
  8. LottDodd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2002
    star 4
    Are You Saying Personal Anger Could not tinflict tragedy and Change? That it has to be A "Cosmic Anger"?
  9. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    Its hard to get an understanding on what it is, this is due to Lucas. First he tells us through the originals that the force surrounds us binds us and penetrates. Then he brings up the midichlorians in the phantom and then he springs this chosen one thing on us. He uses all three of what you've stated. Its hard to get a grasp on just exactly what it is.
  10. Apprentice_Skywalker Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    Totally agreed! The midichlorian thing totally screwed up the whole fantasy for me personally. To me I still adhere to the definition "Surrounds us, binds us, ...etc".
  11. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    The midi-chlorians do not de-mystifie the Force, they are simply messengers who tell us the will of the Force if we quiet our minds.
    And what is the will of the Force exactly? How can an energyfield have a will? I think TPM further mystifies the Force, not the other way around.
  12. Apprentice_Skywalker Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Mar 5, 2003
    I see your point Lars and your right it definitely furthers the mystery about the force and how it works. The only thing that I might argue is that sometimes the only thing better than knowing is not to know.

    I akin that to the Vader effect. Anakin is awesome in his own right but he is much cooler and myserious with that damn suit and mask on. Kinda cool when you only know bits and pieces about a certain person or thing...it lets us BS about what is and what isn't. Kinda like were doing now.
  13. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    We still have Yoda.... ;)
  14. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    About the light vs. dark side:

    I believe that the choice of light vs. dark is not in the force itself, but in the user. The force can be used for evil and it can be used for good. In herently, it MUST have elements of both in it. If the force surrounds all living things, this would make sense. It possesses both evil and good. The person makes the choice of how they will wield the force. I also believe that there are consequences to the force depending on how you use it. Thus "the dark side clouds everything".

    I believe that the "sides" are merely a way of labeling what constitutes evil and good. Did anyone ever notice that it is only usually referred to as "the dark side", not the "dark side of the force"? I can only think of 2 times it is mentioned that way.

    "The dark side" could be your dark side. Everybody has one.

    The Picnic :eek:
  15. LottDodd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2002
    star 4
    How Would Yoda Have ANswered Luke If Luke Had Asked "Is the LIGHT SIDE More Powerful...?"
  16. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    Lars

    I tend to disagree. When I first watched the movies back in the eighties I thought of the force as some cosmic thing. When George brought up the midis in my opinion it does demystify the force. He is pin pointing a reason for it being. A tiny organism in your body i think is what Qui-Gon said.
  17. LordIsurus Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 1999
    star 3
    Is the Force Better Described as an Energy Field, A Symbiotic Microorganism, Or A Spirtual State of Being?

    The Force could be one of these things...all of these things, or something completely different. Understand that the Jedi Order came from a group of philosphers who somehow tapped into this indescribable field of Force. They further studied it and developed ways to control things...see thoughts...see the future. To do this, I'd imagine at first they used to meditate or something. Maybe to a dreamlike state at first. I imagine they could move a hair a millimeter in the beginning. But to move that hair, they must have believed they were at a very high spiritual state of being. Further along the way, they realized more things they could do and the invisible power they had would be thought of as some kind of energy field. A force which can not be quantified but can affect objects or thoughts or a number of things. All these explanations are completely right, so far. Now, we know at some point they developed a way to measure someones ability to use the Force. When something becomes measurable, there is a certain science to be learned about it. I think the Midichlorians are still a grasp at how the Force works, but a step under the belief that they could apply scentific method to understanding the Force. But we dont know how long the Jedi even used the idea of Midichlorians to describe things. Qui-Gon sounds quite excited when he talks about them and that may partially be due to the fact its a newly found technology...being able to detect a Force user. And since they Jedi felt the ability to use the Force can be quantified, the Jedi would naturally apply those scientific terms to it but still not completely understanding whats going on, they 'assume' its a living symbiote. This doesn't mean they were right.
    By ANH, we never hear another mention of Midichlorians. So while we know the Jedi did think they knew what the Force is, Midichlorians, we know they must retract that system. But, nonetheless, it cant be possible to ignore the fact that they had devices which could detect a Force-user.

    So...all these ways of describing the Force are fine. And with regards to religous aspects in the real world.. as I've said before, one of the most intriguing aspects to the Force is the fact that it's not bound to one interpretation. Even if we were to say it has to be one of those options at the top of the page, you know there's a lot anyone can build into it. To each their own. Some would say there's a dark side and a light side, Jedi and Sith..many things. And I think thats a good thing. It's like everyone is looking at the same picture, but since noone is standing in the exact spot as another, they see something similar but unique to themselves. As to my own interpretation of the Force, it's simple, but takes a lifetime to figure out. At the moment, I'm thinking of a crystal, though. When sunlight passes through one, you get a rainbow of colours which all came from that initial bright light. Yet even though there's an infinate number of colours in that rainbow, you know it's connected and there's a flow to it. Who'd ever imagine hearing talk of rainbows from a Sith Lord, eh?

    May the Force be with you

    Isurus the White

  18. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    jag29: ANH explained how the Force exists:
    - It´s an energyfield created by all living things that surrounds us, penetrates us and binds the galaxy together.

    TPM explained how the Jedi communicate with the Force:
    - Without the midi-chlorians, life could not exist and we would have no knowledge of the Force. They continually speak to us, telling us the will of the Force.

    Midi-chlorians are not the Force. They allow life to exist and it is life that creates the Force. So, the Force is really more closely related to us than to the midis.
  19. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    Lars- I do see your point. Qui-Gon also said to Ani that without the midi-chlorians they would have no knowledge of the force. I take this to mean that the force is more related to the midis than us.
  20. Naccha Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 3
    I think the midichlorians are conduits between the Force and the Jedi. That is why they can feel the Force. The Force itself is really not able to be explained. It supersedes all explanations, like the realm of consciousness and the phenomenon of light. I'm reading a book by Peter Russell called "From Science to God" and he tackles those two subjects very well. Even Einstein could not explain light, he made a comment that "...for the rest of my life, I want to ponder on what light is." The Force is that way also. GL has said that he came upon the concept of the Force as a way to make people, particularly young people, question spiritual concepts, to give them a sense that there is more to life than what meets the eye. (TIME magazine 1998 article) He certainly was successful in doing that. I know I'm drawn to SW because there is substance behind the story, something more than just a fantasy/sci fi tale. GL definitely perked my fascination.
  21. TheOzhaggis Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 1, 2000
    star 5

    When Time magazine asked Lucas what religion he is, he replied, "I was raised a Methodist. Now let's just say I'm spiritual. It's Marin County. We're all buddhists up here."

    In the original trilogy, what (little) we were told about the Force sounded a lot like buddhism.

    In the prequels, it sounded even more like buddhism, and the Jedi themselves acted and thought very much like buddhist monks - with a dash of shaolin monk thrown in for the action scenes.

    In AOTC, the Jedi are so close to buddhist monks that it almost becomes a lesson in buddhism.

    The conversation in AOTC between Anakin & Padme, about the Jedi not being allowed to love, sounds like Lucas lifted it straight out of the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying:

    PADMÉ: Are you allowed to love? I thought that was forbidden for a Jedi.

    ANAKIN: Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion, which I would define as unconditional love, is central to a Jedi's life, so you might say we're encouraged to love.

    One of the central tenets of buddhism is love and compassion without attachment (ie, possessiveness). But Anakin twists the definitions to get around that. And that is his undoing.

    "Anakin becomes Darth Vader because he gets attached to things. He can't let go of his mother; he can't let go of his girlfriend. He can't let go of things." - Lucas (Time, April 2002)


    So if you're trying to unravel the mysteries of the Force, buddhism is probably not such a bad place to start ...
  22. Lars_Muul Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 2, 2000
    star 6
    jag29: Yeah, I guess it goes in a circle. midi-chlorians - life - the Force - midi-chlorians - life etc
  23. jag29 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 13, 2002
    star 3
    That was a nice read Ozhaggis. I see the relation. But why do you think Lucas brought the midi-chlorians into play. I don't understand why. That and Jar Jar are the only two things that bother me about the prequels. I know this is Lucas's baby but we are the ones that have to pay to watch it.
  24. LottDodd Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 2002
    star 4
    Qui-gon Seems to have "Faith" That The Midichlorians Could somehow Concieve Anakin. The Midichlorians are brought in partially as a Pseudo-scientific explanation for the force... and than used as a pretext for the most metaphysical aspect to date... The Virgin Birth.
  25. urgent_jedi_picnic Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 14, 2003
    star 4
    Midis do not scientifically explain the force. All they do is explain why certain people can use the force and others can't. Well, that and occasionally knock up desert slaves. They are only a conduit. There is much left to the force that is not scientifically explained. How do you do the mind trick? How do you levitate items? How do you sense others emotions? etc...

    The Picnic :eek:
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