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**~Unravelling The Mysteries of the Force~** True Seekers Only...

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by LottDodd, Feb 27, 2003.

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  1. jag29

    jag29 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2002
    Lott- I don't think it is a question of Qui-gon's faith. I thinks that anakin was conceived by the midi-chlorians.

    I'm no movie genius but I think he could have done without the midi-chlorians. He could have portrayed it some how different in measuring ones potential.
     
  2. jag29

    jag29 Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 13, 2002
    that last post is supposed to read. He thinks that anakin was conceived by the midis.
     
  3. bad radio

    bad radio Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 1999
    >>>> Does the Force have an Inherent "Light" and "Dark" Side or is that merley a Human (or Alien) Trait that has been subscribed to it??

    In his story meeting transcripts for TESB, George describes the Force in great detail. He says that every life form in the SW universe creates a Force ?energy? via the act of living, and that this energy grows and envelops the organism like an aura during its lifetime. When a life form dies, the Force that it created joins with all the other energy in the universe, thus giving rise to one giant mass of Force energy in the sky. All life, in other words, is a part of the Force because it generates the power that makes the Force live, and death in the SW universe isn?t absolute?all life continues as part of the Force. Perhaps this is what Yoda means when he says ?luminous beings are we, not this crude matter.? What?s more, George says that this giant mass of energy has a good and a bad side; when good people die they become one with the good side, while bad people become part of the dark side when they die.
     
  4. bad radio

    bad radio Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 1999
    >>>> And what is the will of the Force exactly? How can an energyfield have a will?

    [blockquote][hr]You see, in my own philosophy or religion, such as it is, I believe there is so much more going on than we can see or perceive, that we?re not alone in this space, that everything that has happened in this space is still there. So for me, Ben always related to this notion, to a Force that all humans contribute to. The Force is the combined vibrations of all living things.

    ? Lawrence Kasdan, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays[hr][/blockquote]In the SW universe there is another dimension of reality?the dimension of the dead. As I said previously, the ?energy field? is made up of the Force energy that all life-forms generated during their lifetime. When each life-form died its Force energy joined with all the other Force energy to create the larger ?energy field? that Ben describes in ANH. The will of the Force, accordingly, is the combined will of all the life-forms that have died and become one with the Force. This also means that the will of the Force can be good or bad, depending on how many good and bad people have died.
     
  5. bad radio

    bad radio Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Aug 26, 1999
    >>>> But why do you think Lucas brought the midi-chlorians into play. I don't understand why.

    [blockquote][hr]Midi-chlorians are a loose depiction of mitochondria, which are necessary components for cells to divide. They probably had something?which will come out someday?to do with the beginnings of life and how one cell decided to become two cells with a little help from this other little creature who came in, without whom life couldn't exist.

    ? George Lucas, [link=http://www.eonline.com/News/More/lucas5.html]E!Online Press Conference[/link][hr][/blockquote]In the above quote, when he mentions that mitochondria had something to do with the beginnings of life, George is referring to the Endosymbiotic Theory. The following is from James Lovelock?s book Gaia: The Practical Science of Planetary Medicine in which he explains more about the Endosybiotic Theory (this is relevant because the Force is based on the notion of Gaia, which is the idea that the Earth is alive and that everything that lives on the Earth is part of this larger superorganism):

    [blockquote][hr]Lynn Margulis is distinguished for her support of the endosymbiosis hypothesis, a view that I find extremely compelling. In this hypothesis the cells of all the more recent life on Earth are made up from assemblages of smaller organisms that were once free-living. A cell, for example, in the leaf of a plant contains within it small green bacteria-sized bodies. These are called chloroplasts and enable plants to use sunlight to produce organic matter and oxygen from the raw materials carbon dioxide and water. According to Lynn, these bodies are the descendants of one free-living cyanobacteria. Our own cells contain similar small bodies to the chloroplasts of the plants. These are called mitochondria, and they perform the reverse energy transaction by recombining oxygen and organic matter to provide the power that we need to live. Mitochondria and chloroplasts are genetically quite different from the genetic material of the cell nucleus. (There are, for example, distinct genetic diseases of the mitochondria.) I find this convincing evidence for the view that these organelles were once separate and free organisms.

    Endosymbiosis began when, sometime early in the history of life, consumers ingested other bacteria, or bacteria were invaded intracellularly by other bacteria. These events were, of course, usually fatal to the victims, but once in a while, instead of death of one or other of the pair, a truce was called and they lived together in symbiosis, each benefiting from the other?s presence. An ingested cyanobacterium, instead of dying, continued to photosynthesize and feed not only itself but the cell that had eaten it. Endosymbiosis led to the emergence in the Proterozoic of a new kind of cell, the eukaryote. Larger and more complex than a bacterial cell, eukaryotes are the cells from which all of the larger manifestations of life, animals, plants, fungi, and protoctists (unicellular organisms), have evolved.

    ? James Lovelock, Gaia: The Practical Science of Planetary Medicine[hr][/blockquote]Midi-chlorians, just like their real-world counterparts, mitochondria, are responsible for jump-starting life in the SW universe. This is important to the cosmology of SW because we know that life creates the Force. What?s more, because they were so essential in the origins of life in SW, George gave the midi-chlorians one more characteristic?they allow people to hear what the Force wants to tell them.
     
  6. bad radio

    bad radio Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 26, 1999
    >>>> They are only a conduit. There is much left to the force that is not scientifically explained. How do you do the mind trick? How do you levitate items? How do you sense others emotions? etc...

    [blockquote][hr]Briefly formulated, the universal doctrine teaches that all the visible structures of the world?all things and beings?are the effects of a ubiquitous power out of which they rise, which supports and fills them during the period of their manifestation, and back into which they must ultimately dissolve. This is the power known to science as energy, to the Melanesians as mana, to the Sioux Indians as wakonda, the Hindus as shakti, and the Christians as the power of God. Its manifestation in the psyche is termed, by the psychoanalysts, libido. And its manifestation in the cosmos is the structure and flux of the universe itself.

    The apprehension of the source of this undifferentiated yet everywhere particularized substratum of being is rendered frustrate be the very organs through which the apprehension must be accomplished. The forms of sensibility and the categories of human thought, which are themselves manifestations of this power, so confine the mind that it is normally impossible not only to see, but even conceive, beyond the colorful, fluid, infinitely various and bewildering phenomenal spectacle. The function of ritual and myth is to make possible, and then facilitate, the jump?by analogy.

    ? Joseph Campbell, The Hero with a Thousand Faces[hr]
    [hr]I tried, in my going through mythology, to distill down into certain basic ideas things that seem to exist in a great deal of mythology. Again, to try to find the themes and ideas that continue over a great amount of time and across a wide spectrum of cultures. The Force is a result of that. The Force is the way that many people view the great mysteries of ?Is there other realities at work other than the one we can perceive.? I think that the Force represents life?I mean another way to describe it is ?life-force.? It?s the spirit of life rather than the physical manifestation of it.

    What Luke is doing in the beginning of Star Wars is finding his own responsibility for his place in the world. He thinks that his responsibility is with his aunt and uncle, and to do his chores. His ultimate responsibility is much larger than that because it deals with a much larger base of humanity?larger more cosmic issues. He is unwilling to look up and see those as something that relate to him. He?s much more looking at the ground and plodding along in his everyday life. So it?s that awakening, first of all, that is the performed by the insider, the magic of Obi-Wan that sends him on the path to self-discovery.

    ? George Lucas, Laserdisc Commentary, Star Wars Trilogy Definitive Collection[hr]
    [hr]The Force itself breaks down into two sides: the living Force and a greater, cosmic Force. The living Force makes you sensitive to other living things, makes you intuitive, and allows you to read people?s minds, etc. But the greater Force has to do with destiny. In working with the Force, you can find your destiny and you can choose to either follow it or not.

    ? George Lucas, quoted in L. Bouzereau, Star Wars: The Making of Episode I[hr][/blockquote]The Force is split into two aspects: the cosmic Force and the living Force. The cosmic Force is the invisible ?energy field? that is everywhere at every moment; it?s all the dead people who have become one with the Force. The living Force, in contrast, is the corporeal aspect of the Force; it is all the assorted physical manifestations of the Force?it?s the universe and everything that lives within it. In the SW universe, life itself is a manifestation of the Force, and things like thoughts and feelings are also manifestations of the Force. A person who understands these things, who knows that a thought is just a form of the Force, can easily tap this component of the Force the same way he or she would tap the Force to move an object. Qui-Gon and Dar
     
  7. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 4, 2002
    Great Scholarship Bad Radio... Truly Helpful!
     
  8. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 4, 2002
    Are the Jedi (Not Force Adepts or Rogue Powers) Unified in their Interpretaition of the Force? Is their beliefs and teachings codified... or is it open to the interpretaition of the master who instructs you? What is Jedi Dogma? Are their Heresies in the Force?
     
  9. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2002
    Do Midichlorians have "Force Ghosts"?
     
  10. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    "The Force is an energy field, created by all living things."

    "Midichlorians are microscopic life forms that live inside our cells."


    The Force is created by every living thing. It has a Will, which is influenced by every living thing. This Will is therefore the ultimate democracy, which the Jedi use their powers to follow and carry out it's wishes.

    So midichlorians generate the Force. More of them mean that this "mystical energy field" is stronger with the individual, and therefore easier to "hear."

    However, the Force being strong with someone isn't the same as someone being strong with the Force. Midichlorians have nothing to do with being able to use or manipulate the Force, which is what gives someone strength with the Force- that's purely a result of Jedi training. However, there is a connection of sorts- Jedi only train those with a high midichlorian count, presumably becaue they will be more able to hear the Will of the Force, and to carry it out (which is the basis of the Jedi philosophy.)

    The Force is very strong with Anakin in TPM, and yet he has no strength over it. Without training, he doesn't have a natural ability to control it, despite a prodigious midichlorian count.

    "When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear it too."

    "But how will I know the good from the bad?"
    "When you are calm... passive..."


    No matter how many midichlorians someone has, if they haven't learnt to quiet their mind and listen to the Will of the Force, they won't do any good. Without a quiet mind, they won't know whether they are using the Force to carry out the Will of the Force (ie. "the light side"- using the Force to serve the Force, treating it as an ally) or using the Force for their own personal ends (ie. the Dark Side, treating the Force as a tool.)

    On the other hand, the Sith don't care about the Will of the Force, any more than the Emperor cares about the will of the people in his Empire (the "democracy" analogy returns...) To a Sith, the Force is a tool rather than an ally.

    >>>I think the midis are only a scientific reason for why certain people can use the force and others can't. It doesn't explain things like how the mind trick is done, or how to levitate objects, etc....

    I think that's entirely dependant on Jedi training- bear in mind that Anakin has no power over the Force in TPM.

    Also note that if Palpatine was born on Naboo (ie. within the Republic), wasn't detected and trained by the Jedi, and yet became more powerful than any Jedi, then a) he can't have a high midichlorian count, and therefore b) midichlorians can't be involved in using the Force.

    >>>Qui-Gon also said to Ani that without the midi-chlorians they would have no knowledge of the force. I take this to mean that the force is more related to the midis than us.

    I think it comes back to the mitochondria analogy. (Personally, I don't see a difference between mitochondria and midichlorians...) Without mitochondria, multicellular life forms simply would not exist. That means that life wouldn't have developed past the stage of amoebas- ie. no eyes, no ears, no brains- and no knowlegdge of pretty much anything.
     
  11. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 4, 2002
    There is a Mystery surrounding why Palpatine wasn't detected... exspecially if he is from Naboo or anywhere in the Republic... But I Doubt that a Low Midichlorian Count is the Cause of that.
     
  12. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    All we know about midichlorians is that they "speak to us, telling us of the Will of the Force."

    Why would a Sith need/want to know of the Will of the Force?
     
  13. byrdnest

    byrdnest Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Apr 11, 2001
    is it so hard to believe that a force does exist? we only use 10% of our brains. what if the force is a way to tap into that other percent. come on, there is no spoon.
     
  14. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    I think the Force exists... kind of...

    The Force is Love.
     
  15. LottDodd

    LottDodd Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 4, 2002
    Man, I know how often I've Levitated objects with love...
     
  16. SomeRandomNerd

    SomeRandomNerd Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 20, 1999
    Well, I've seen thing mysteriously rise before...

    8-}
     
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