Unshakeable proof on why Luke was not being trained to kill Vader

Hey MobarZmuda, great theory!! I think most of the points are totally right, except for one thing, I think that OB1 was not testing luke while telling him that Vader is a lost case. I have the impresion that OB is not always very bright as we could see on ATOC when he is glad that they WON, and Yoda has to kind of slap him into reality and make him notice the reality. I think its the same here, Yoda didn't wanted Luke to kill Vader, but OB had no problem with that idea, he is kind of sees things as black or white, not grey. Well that is my opinion.

 

"Obi-wan never gave up on Anakin being the Chosen One."

That's funny because in both TPM and AOTC, it didn't look like Obi-wan actually believed that Anakin is the Chosen One because he never believed if the prophecy is ture at all and neither did Yoda, Mace Windu, nor any other jedi.

Despite the midichlorian count and Qui-Gon's beliefs, Obi-wan still considers Anakin an ordinary jedi like everyone else had which is all the more reason why he lost faith in Anakin and he wouldn't be decieving Luke into wanting to kill his own father by telling him that Anakin and Vader are 2 different people if all he wanted was to redeem Anakin.

"I think the real-world explanation as to why Ben never says anything about redeeming Anakin is to keep the ending of ROTJ a surprise."

Surprise or not, the fact that Obi-wan has been manipulating Luke into believing that Anakin and Vader are 2 different people says to me that he wants Luke to kill his own father and since Yoda wasn't honest with Luke either until he's on his deathbed shows that he feels the same way Obi-wan does about Anakin.

As we watch TPM, neither of them wanted Anakin to be a jedi in the first place but they had no choice since Qui-Gon was proven correct about the Sith's return at the cost of his own life, that Obi-wan had to keep his promise and train Anakin, and that the majority of the council agreed with Obi-wan's decision.

When Anakin becomes Darth Vader in Episode 3, Yoda and Obi-wan will regret ever agreeing to make Anakin a jedi which is why they are using his own children to destroy him and the Emperor.

"So why exactly did Yoda tell Luke we didn't need his weapons in the cave?"

In the same equivalent as "A jedi uses the force for knowledge and defense, never for attack", Yoda was trying to teach Luke that until the situation calls for it( i.e. your life being threatened by a dozen gunmen or a Sith lord), Luke shouldn't use his weapons for personal reasons.

Please note that the quote "Your weapons....you will not need them" doesn't necessarily mean "You cannot take your weapons with you" because if that were so, the Jedi in the prequals would not be carrying lightsabers at all.

 

Well, Obi-Wan is convinced that Luke must kill Vader and Palpatine or "The emperor has already won".

If Luke is really Anakin's son, he can destroy both Vader and Palpatine. The emperor has foreseen it.

Now, say it isn't true and Luke really can't kill Vader or the Emperor. He is too young, had too little training, or, worst, isn't even Anakin's son. Obi-Wan and Yoda could make a very clever plot in order to "cheat" Vader into sacrificing himself to save Luke and destroy the Emperor. Luke himself had to believe he was able to destroy the Emperor, even if he wasn't. I post a more elaborate version of this on "THE TRUTH ABOUT LUKE" thread.

Actually, in order for this party of that my theory to work (a theory that, btw, that is half-serious) Luke should be actually unable to kill Palpy and Vader, but only Obi-Wan and Yoda could know it.

 

Okeydokie.
If Georgy says so I guess that's how it is.
I don't think he did a very good job of illustrating the point though. And I could still counter each point, but Sophita already did it the way I would've and I don't think you need to hear very similar points tossed around twice
Actually, I'm still undecided on the issue.

 

"If Luke is really Anakin's son, he can destroy both Vader and Palpatine. The emperor has foreseen it."

I wouldn't put so much faith in what the Emperor tells Vader as being absolute fact. The Emperor is a great manipulator and everything he does and says is for a reason. I think the Emperor tells Vader that his son will kill them because at the start of ESB, the Emperor wanted Luke dead, no questions asked. Vader manipulated the Emperor into allowing him a chance to turn Luke before they killed him.

Even if we believe that the Emperor did foresee Luke destroying Vader and the Emperor, I don't think the Emperor actually saw Luke strike the two down with a lightsaber or anything. If that were the case I don't think the Emperor would have sat around for a year or two waiting for Luke to come to him, I think the Emperor would have hunted Luke down and had him killed by the entire Imperial legion.

I think what the Emperor might have actually envisioned is that Luke brings Vader back to the lightside and together they kill the Emperor, which makes the Emperor's comments true from a certain point of view because both Vader and the Emperor are destroyed because when Vader becomes Anakin again Vader is no more. That's why the Emperor was constantly questioning Vader's loyalty.

 

Great theory MobartZmuda this is one of the most intelligent threads that i´ve ever read.

 

I doubt that the Emporer ever doubted Vader's loyalty. His behavior doesn't indicate that.

1. He lets Vader alone block the saber blade.

2. He lets Vader stand directly behind him when he's zapping Luke.

I

 

"I doubt that the Emporer ever doubted Vader's loyalty"

Remeber this conversation between Vader and the Emperor from ROTJ:

Emperor: "I told you to remain on the command ship."

Vader: "A small Rebel force has penetrated the shield and landed on Endor"

Emperor: "Yes, I know"

Vader: "My son is with them"

Emperor: "Are you sure?"

Vader: "I have felt him, my Master"

Emperor: "Strange that I have not. I wonder if your feelings on this matter are clear, Lord Vader? "

Vader: "They are clear, my Master"

That's a prime example of questioning Vader's loyalty.

The two examples which you've provided I would classify more as the Emperor's overconfidence than I would the Emperor trusting Vader's loyalty. Besides, my comment was directed more towards the time between the Emperor's conversation with Vader in ESB and Vader finally bringing Luke before the Emperor in ROTJ--which accounts for about a years worth of mistrust between the two. I'd also say that the Emperor's lack of faith in Vader is one reason he wanted to replace him with Luke, since he realized Vader was becoming a little soft and the Emperor was overconfident enough to believe that Luke would become his new servent.

 

I don't agree with the premise at all. I think Luke was sent to Kill Vader by Obi Wan and Yoda reluctantly agreed to provide some training. I don't think Yoda even has a plan in the OT, outside of chilling in the swamps. The dialogue of the OT indicates they wanted vader dead. You made a lot of points and gave good explanations, but I don't have time to address all of them now. So I'll just go to your first 3.

Rember Luke's "failure at the cave". If Luke is being trained to kill Vader, why does Yoda consider this trial a failure?

Yoda told Luke he didn't need to bring his weapons into the cave, so saying that Luke failed because he attacked first is a moot point--he should not have attacked the illusion Vader at all because he should never of had any weapons with him.

Luke failed his test in the cave because he is NOT being trained to kill Vader. That is why Luke didn't need any weapons. I believe that if Luke had went into the cave without his weapons and without giving into his fear or anger (thus demonstrating he was ready for the burden to come), I believe the Vader illusion would have revealed many things to Luke--including Vader's true identity.

Luke failed this test because he was not listening to Yoda. This disobedience led him to take an agressive physical stance for a battle that was taking place in his mind. It wasn't so much that he 'attacked' Vader, it was that Luke was not realizing that the Force could even prtoect him from his fears, let him confront them and defeat them. The image of Vader was all coming from within him. By entering with aggression and combat on the mind, the darkside brought it out of him. As Yoda said, what is in the cave is what you bring with you. Luke failed by bringing in too much anger and aggression. It had nothing to do with wanting to turn Vader.

2) If Luke was being trained to kill Vader and the Emperor, why was he never shown how to block force lighting? You don't train a weapon without showing them how to block their opponents' greatest skill.

This is just a plot hole. In the OT, I think Force Lightning was supposed to be an unstoppable power. Maybe Yoda did not even know Sidious had mastered it. but AOTC has no changed it to little more than a gimmick that can be easily blocked and neutralized with a saber. Even if Yoda wanted Luke to turn Vader back, not teaching him about lightning is still ridiculous!!!!!

3) The problem most people find with believing in my theory is Old Ben's conversation in ROTJ in which he states that Vader "is more machine than man, twisted and evil". But, this is only another trial for Luke, whereas he failed in the cave, he passes this one.

By the time of Luke's conversation with Old Ben, Luke believed that his father was redeemable, that there was still good in him. This is why Yoda said Luke required no more training, that all he had to do was confront Vader.

I know this position often falls on deaf ears, but if you were really right, why would Obi Wan and Yoda never say this???? Why wouldn't they say, "there is a chance that Vader still has love for you. You can use that love to redeem him." Why leave it as a sort of test to see if Luke can figure it out?? This is a desperate, deadly situation with permanent galactic tyranny at stake. This is not the time to quiz people and let them guess the solutions. When it's time actually head in, Yoda and Obi Wan are look two parents over Luke giving him last minute advice. Why withhold something so crucial? It just defies logic.

The lessons Luke receives are geared at protecting his mastery of the Force. Yoda and Obi Wan know Luke will have to cofnrotn Vader and fear and anger can push him to the darkside and lead him to join the Sith. They are just trying to make sure Luke does not crack under pressure. Luke, who has realized the great Flaw of the Jedi, not only masters his control of his emotions and the Force, he also unleashes his love for his father and uses that to defeat the darkside. It was not the idea of Yoda and Obi Wan. It was Luke'

 

"but AOTC has no changed it to little more than a gimmick that can be easily blocked and neutralized with a saber"

I'm not so sure about that. It may look like Obi-Wan just holds his saber up and blocks it, but there may be more to it than that. Maybe using the Force to channel it to the saber, and water it down, for lack of a better term. As far as Yoda not teaching Luke how to absorb it, I always assumed it was just beyond what Luke could master at the time.

 

true, the lightning was obviously guided to the saber by the Force.

 

quote: I doubt that the Emperor ever doubted Vader's loyalty.

"Your overconfidence is your weakness." That sums up the Emperor.

 

I wouldn't put so much faith in what the Emperor tells Vader as being absolute fact.

Well, the Emperor was right, from a certain point of view. But that's not the point.

The Emperor said THE SON OF SKYWALKER can destroy him and Vader. Not "Luke" per se. So if Luke isn't Skywalker's son, there would be no pointing in training him to kill Vader, but actually to make Vader destroy the Emperor as happened.

 

I doubt that the Emperor ever doubted Vader's loyalty.

"Your overconfidence is your weakness." That sums up the Emperor.

I think it was the nature of the Sith for the apprentice to always seek to learn as much as he or she could from the master, then make an overthrow attempt. The RotJ novelization explicitly says this was Vader's intent. Dooku almost certainly would not have turned to the dark side to be subservient to anyone unless it were also his intent. Darth Bane instated the rule of two because the Sith lords were continually engaging in infighting and trying to kill each other. We may be able to generalize from these examples to all Sith. I'm sure Palpatine knew from the first day he began trying to tempt Anakin that he had to fear the day Anakin/Vader became strong enough to threaten him.

 

I think it was the nature of the Sith for the apprentice to always seek to learn as much as he or she could from the master, then make an overthrow attempt.

Vader says on TESB "he will join US or die", not "he will join you or die".

Vader never makes a real attempt to overthrow Palpatine. He wanted to freeze Luke and send him as a gift.

 

"Vader says on TESB "he will join US or die", not "he will join you or die".

This is what Vader tells the Empero, but not necessarily what Vader believes. Why would Vader tell the Emperor he really wants to turn Luke so that together as father and son they could overthrow the Emperor? I don't think the Emperor would have let Vader continue on with his plans if he spoke his true feelings on the matter.

"Vader never makes a real attempt to overthrow Palpatine"

Remember in ESB, when Vader was talking to Luke:
"With our combined strength we could end this destructive conflict and bring order to the galaxy"

"Luke, you can destroy the Emperor, he has foreseen this."

"Join me and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son".

That doesn't exactly sound like Vader was planning on bringing the Emperor along for the ride.

 

I'm not so sure about that. It may look like Obi-Wan just holds his saber up and blocks it, but there may be more to it than that. Maybe using the Force to channel it to the saber, and water it down, for lack of a better term. As far as Yoda not teaching Luke how to absorb it, I always assumed it was just beyond what Luke could master at the time.

I don't agree with this for 2 reasons: 1) We never see Obi Wan give any indication that he is chanelling the Lightning and 2) He has never seen lightning before Anakin was just zapped. So I don't see how he would be so adept at handling it. I am willing to give Yoda a benefit of doubt since he is so old-school, maybe he had been trained in it at a time the Sith were still around. But I think Obi Wan just blocks it. That's hot it appears to me. It did not seem like a problem for him at all. And it's a hole because even if Luke was not skilled enough to absorb it, Obi Wan or Yoda could have at least given him a heads up that Sidious might zap him. Don't you guys se how crazy it would be not to warn him?!? Especially whenhe canjust hold up his saber and nuetralize it?
The Force Lightning is really not that big a deal anymore.

But on topic, I still think Yoda and Obi wanted vader dead.

 

From what we see on screen you may be right. But then again, who is to say you have to wave your arms around or close your eyes and take deep breaths to use the Force? We just don't know what was involved in that block, but it does look like it's easy. But then again, they say great players make great plays look easy

 

I sincerly hope that in Episode III Obi-wan tries to block the Emperor's lightning with his lighsaber but he can't. I want the Emperor's lightning to unblockable by a lightsaber.

 

I'm telling you. Obi-Wan used the Force to move the lightning to the blade. That OR the saber is some sort of magical energy magnet. The lightning arc into the saber. I guess is that ether Obi-Wan directly learned this ability or was just using the default Force ability to do what needs to be done.

 

My guess is that after Obi-wan's first encounter with a Sith Lord which resulted in the death of his beloved master, he would want to know as much about the Sith as possible in the event the other Sith Lord comes looking for him seeking revenge. Perhaps Yoda showed him the trick of absorbing the lightning. But Yoda was definately taught the trick by some other Jedi since Yoda is about 880 in AOTC and the Sith had been extinct for a millenia.

 

Or maybe it's part another more broad ability, since Anakin and Obi-Wan flew thru that huge power coupling and didn't "go numb for hours".

 

If someone else has a theory about Luke being/not being trained to kill Vader, they can also post it here, like the way mulitple theories are posted in the unshakeable Palp=Sidious thread

 

Awesome theory and great read. GJ everyone.

 

Sweet, I thought my baby had died and I was to embarrassed to "up" her myself.

Any other theories on the subject matter? I'm all ears, or I guess eyes