VIDEO Untitled BioWare Project

Discussion in 'Games' started by Reynar_Tedros, Nov 7, 2011.

  1. zacparis VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 7
    I was disappointed with DA2 before it came out. No race selection? Cartoony art style?? Emphasis on actiony awesomesauce?? Nooo!

    But like Rich said, it's a good game in its own right.
  2. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    Well, that still leaves it better off than The Godfather Part III.
  3. Alpha-Red Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 25, 2004
    star 5
    Speaking of which, does anyone else find Mass Effect 2's plot to be less than compelling?
  4. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    The storyline in DA2 was ten times richer and more compelling and more grounded and personal than DA:eek:'s was -- superior on so many levels, and I say this as someone who adores DA:eek:. There's an incredible amount of complexity going on, there.

    It's because BioWare removed some item-crafting and skill-trees that certain hardliner RPG nerds out there have proclaimed it to be the "W0R$T GaME E\/AR!!111!1!!". People who confuse "role-playing" with "ROLL-playing," in other words. Frankly, every time I read some of those so-called "complaints" on other forums, my bitchslap-hand starts trembling.
  5. SoloCommand Manager Emeritus & GTA Coruscant Developer

    Member Since:
    Jun 15, 2001
    star 5
    I'd argue that it wasn't. I found the "richness" of the plot lacking (at least in my single playthrough): character motivation was glossed over pretty quickly, especially in the final stages of the game; none of the other party members really gelled with me in the same level that they did in Dragon Age, with each character moving from stages of "Person I know", "Person I like", "Person I have a thing for" and "Person I want to jump bones with", with advancement gained by picking an obvious and arbitary "I want this guy to like me"/"I want this guy to hate me" button (with a handy icon to tell you whether you're being nice/nasty), and once you've reached that point, I struggled to find any further relationship development - It seemed a stark contrast from Dragon Age's veritable smorgasbord of character interaction and development, where working out what made each character tick in the ways you talked to them seemed like solving an intricate and involving puzzle.

    In relation to the plot, there reached a point that in every quest I did, I could see the resolution coming from a mile away. 9/10 times, it was "Blood Mage did it".

    Also, I found Dragon Age's level of tactical complexity a stark contract from pretty much every other AAA game out there, which was one of the main reasons I bought and was subsequently disappointed by the second game.

    So yes, feel free to bitch slap me for having an opinion.
  6. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    I respect both SoloCommand's and Leto's option...so I still don't know whether or not to invest the time to try it
  7. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    It's cool, SoloCommand -- I wasn't referring to you, but to other folks on other boards who simply get butthurt because they couldn't craft ninety different unique types of poisons and traps, or what-have-you. That said, I think you're slightly underselling what BioWare accomplished in that game. Narratively, Dragon Age II was more sophisticated than DA:eek:, and very close to the mark that they were aiming for (and fell short of) in Origins.

    What Origins did, in a sense, was provide *too many* storyline options for the player -- you might face, for example, two tough, difficult choices during a key storyline moment, but all too often, you were also given a third option which completely removed any character consequences or narrative downside (such as breaking the werewolves' curse, instead of being forced to choose between either their genocide, or that of the elves, or having the Mage's Circle intervene during the Redcliffe crisis, and save both Connor and Isolde's lives without any further fallout or repercussions).

    Dragon Age II, on the other hand, had a stark ballsiness in how it presented its decisions to the player -- Anders is always going to destroy the Chantry no matter what you do to try and dissuade him; Leandra is always going to be killed by Quentin before you're able to rescue her; and Marethari is always going to submit to the demon regardless of whether or not Merrill's plan works. You're given some choices as to how to respond to these situations as a player, but it's still always going to end in tragedy.

    While some folks complained that this "removed role-playing options" from the game, I would argue that it actually made for stronger and more focused writing. Concerning this, Lead Writer David Gaider had this to say on the official BioWare boards:

    In other words, being given the ability to make things "turn out okay" is not truly part of the series' core dramatic underpinnings/intentionality, unlike franchises like Mass Effect or Star Wars. Dragon Age II completely dispenses with an "epic" backdrop, with the Hawkes' storyline only occurring piecemeal as the player themselves gradually learn more and more about the political situation in Kirkwall, and why events are building to a head there. This effectively managed to turn Dragon Age II into a far deeper character-drama than Origins, with the personal interactions that are BioWare's key strength being brought much, much more to the foreground than they were in the previous game.
  8. Reynar_Tedros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 3, 2006
    star 6
    I <3 this post.
  9. zacparis VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 7
    No no, BioWare undersold the game. The tragic story that runs through DA2 was completely buried under the mainstream marketing spin that focussed on stripping down character creation and one-button "press A for awesome" action mechanics. Then once the critics got their hands on it, they blasted the questionable graphics, the overuse of repeated environments and the relative lack of tactical depth. People didn't even give it a chance after that, and even if they did, they were more than ready to jump on the hate bandwagon. I'd really be interested to see the completion rates compared to DA:eek:, a game that hardly anyone completed according to BioWare.
  10. MarcusP2 Games and Community Reaper

    Manager
    Member Since:
    Jul 10, 2004
    star 6
    DA2 was a good game. It just wasn't 'more Origins', which is what I think a lot of people wanted. Particularly those that weren't bothered by DAO's mechanics.

    But yes, the 'ultimate happy quest solution' missing doesn't bother me...it still frustrates me to this day that I can't solve all of Kirkwall's problems and there is unavoidable genocide of the mages, but it's realistic when dealing with insane fanatics. It might frustrate some players because they don't feel they can affect what happens (your choices only affect what bosses you fight, really) whereas the decisions in DAO seemed to have more import behind them.
  11. DarthXan318 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 6
    I liked DA2 much more than DA:eek:, though I do understand why some people preferred the first game. DA2 is an entirely different, new, kind of game, whereas DA:eek: is more "traditional" RPG in that you're a silent protagonist charged with saving the world.

    This, exactly. And a lot of the conversation options didn't matter in the slightest. I felt oddly cheated when I played DA:eek: the second time around and realised most of the choices didn't really matter at all, and at the end of the day I was still going to wind up fighting the archdemon at Denerim.
  12. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    Much of that can be chalked up to one acronym, though:

    "EA."

    As well as the extremely compressed, way-lowballed 15-month development cycle they gave the creators. It's been revealed that the main reason for the use of repeated dungeon-environments was because of this -- the devs simply didn't have enough time to create additional maps. Also, as for the whole "Press A"-thing, well...an RPG where you actually have to hit a button once in awhile, instead of having the computer run things for you? What is this world coming to? Personally, I never had a problem with this. ;)
  13. FlareStorm Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 2000
    star 6
    Pretty sure this is the KOTOR 1 vs 2 arguments with the serial numbers filed off
  14. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    Well, that and the Dragon Age games were actually finished on time.:p
  15. The Great No One Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 2005
    star 8
    DAII being finished is a little bit of a misnomer though. it's probably the most unfinished feeling actually finished game i've ever played.
  16. DarthXan318 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 6
    I never got that "Press A for Awesome" thing until I discovered that DA2 didn't have autoattack on console, so you were forced to keep mashing A or your character would stand around gawking like an idiot. How bizarre. (The PC version was "Right click and occasionally press a skill hotkey for awesome".)
  17. zacparis VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 7
    They patched in the option for auto-attack on console, so it's a little more bearable.
  18. Pyrotek Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 9, 2010
    Definitely can't wait to see Bioware's new offerings - loved DA:eek:, trying DA2 now, then the Mass Effect series, and I'll probably get back to Baldur's Gate / KotOR eventually.

    People majorly disliked DA2, but I'm hoping that was just the gameplay aspects and I can get into the storyline instead - what someone above (sorry, I'm bad at remembering names!) was saying about DA:eek:'s far-too-expanded story choices made good sense. I'm willing to sacrifice choices that can't be fully upheld for stricter yes/no storylines.
  19. Ramza JC Head Admin and RPF Manager

    Administrator
    Member Since:
    Jul 13, 2008
    star 7
    I really like mashing A to string my attacks together. But then, I'm a Dynasty Warriors fan.
  20. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    This is a rather idiotic quip against those who felt Bioware lowered the role-playing of DA 2.
    Sophistication/complexity =/= good.

    Had they not put those "third" choices in, you would have been left with a false dichotomy, because frankly, those third choices, save the dark ritual deus ex machina at the, were valid choices. Curses CAN be broken. The Circle can get you into the fade without blood magic. These aren't cop outs, these are valid options.


    So what you're praising is the inability for someone to actually change the outcome, despite the fact that part of Bioware's signature is to be what makes the difference?

    It's amazing how you make the criticism right here. If I wanted a drama show, I'd have watched a drama show. I know because I do watch drama shows.

    But since you wish to defend any criticism against it like an overly enthusiastic press secretary, here's some for you:
    1) Dragon Age 2 was visually dull and utilitarian, where as Dragon Age Origins was elegant.
    2) Kirkwall got boring after the first act. Dragon Age Origins was about exploring the world of Ferelden. The stones of Orzammar, the majestic tower of magi, the mountaintops where you found legends. Dragon Age 2 took place in one city and four surrounding areas. That you went to again. And again. AND AGAIN. How many times did you have to run to the same place in uptown to get something...go to the same dungeon again and again with a different name and a chest artistically placed somewhere else?
    3) The Third Act was horribly executed. The Magi rebellion took what, one hour? And what was with the character assassination of Orsino. They build him up only to make him a blood mage after all, reusing a golem from a DAO DLC with no explanation of it whatsoever?
  21. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    Er...wow, guy.

    What's with all the personal vitriol over what is -- at the end of the day -- a mere trifle of a hobby? Seriously, you act like I just raped Brent Knowles's ghost and pissed all over the ectoplasm. ("Overly enthusiastic press secretary"? Um...okay. Thought this was a gaming-discussion forum, or something...)

    I'm not going to go 'round-and-'round over this, and you're entitled to have your opinions, but know that there are plenty of other people out there who feel otherwise.
  22. zacparis VIP

    Member Since:
    Sep 1, 2003
    star 7
    DA:eek:, ME1 and ME2 all had single outcomes that only had slight differences determined by the player. Not sure how DA2 is any different.
  23. Lord Vivec Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Apr 17, 2006
    star 7
    lol Leto what are you on about? Way to not actually address what I posted. I at least had the decency to address most if not all the things you said in your post while barely mentioning the personal attacks in it. You, instead, completely ignore everything I said and commented on the "vitriol" that shows up nowhere in my post. No intellectual honesty when it comes to you, eh? Good job, guy.

    Zac, I wasn't just talking about the direct finale, and I wasn't talking about ME or ME2.

    In DA:eek:, you could recruit Loghain instead of killing him. Your army, depending on play-through, could look vastly different. In Redcliff you could have a thriving town or a deserted one depending on how you played. You actually made a difference in the places you went to.

    In DA 2 you had no control over any outcome. Bioware took the lazy way out and made you fight both Orsino and Meredith. Your mother died no matter what you did. Heh, I completely forgot to list the whole lyrium artifact in my list of complaints. Any explanation of what happened? Why it was relevant? No, it just showed up, disappeared, then showed up in the final battle.

    It was basically this guy in the Other M trailer: [image=http://wagonwhale.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/remember-me.png] "remember me?"

    But I digress. The difference here in DA:eek: and DA 2 are easily established. Does it make DA2 horrible? Probably not. I can't play it without being bored, but I know others who can. But does it make Leto's defense crumble? I believe so.
  24. Leto II Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 23, 2000
    star 6
    This is purest squoggle-drillp.

    "Personal attacks"? Where did I actually attack you, personally? Very strange, indeed. (Also -- don't forget that you're the one who came into the thread out of the blue, guns a-blazin', ready for a shootout with anyone who'd dare defend Dragon Age II and BioWare.)

    You're taking this all way, way too seriously, guy. [face_laugh] o_O

    Remember: They're only video games.
  25. DarthXan318 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Sep 12, 2002
    star 6
    In DA2, you can:

    - kill all the Dalish in Sundermount, or leave peacefully (or not do the quest at all)
    - become Viscount of Kirkwall, or be forced to flee the city
    - return the Qunari relic, or have Isabela escape with it
    - be forced to fight members of your party in the final battle, if you made choices they didn't like

    ... etc, etc. I could go on, but honestly this is all just cherry-picking. The main difference in DA:eek: and DA2 is scale - DA:eek: "feels" bigger because you're dealing with armies rather than people, but that's like saying the universe of EVE Online is the biggest in any MMO because it spans the galaxy. Technically correct, but not the point.

    If you didn't like DA2, you know, that's fine. If you thought it was boring, that's fine too. But your opinion isn't the only one out there, so quit with the sweeping comments.