Oceania Untouchable heroes? Or out of touch yobbos?

Discussion in 'Oceania Discussion Boards' started by MisFitToy, Mar 22, 2004.

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  1. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    Unless you've been living on Mars, even those who have absolutely no interest in sport on TV will have seen the news reports coming in of the allegations of the behaviour of footballers (either code) when it comes to the women they encounter.

    The culture that these men have been living in that encourages them to stick by their mates no matter what and the feelings of invincibility bestowed on them by a public in need of distractions and by corporate execs in need of advertising revenue has finally come into the spotlight as spilling over into their lives off the field and into their private lives, and the lives of those they have affected with their animilistic behaviour.

    While it can be argued that some of the women at the centre of the rape/pack rape allegations knew they were heading into an uncertain situation, going back to a players hotel room for example, nothing can excuse the events that occurred without the victim's consent.

    In one case, a women who had agreed to go back to a players hotel room, and slept with the player, was forced to lie in the bed while the rest of the team had their way with her also.

    This is the most vile and evil act a person can do to another human being, the demoralising act of forcing a person to surrender her body to the viscious needs of a testosterone fueled pack of dogs who have been led to believe that they can do what they like and soldier on to the next conquest is disgusting.

    Now you can't hold an organisation responsible for the actions of an individual or a group of individuals, even a team.

    But what about when the larger corporation they belong to steps in? What about when they step in and try to cover it up? When they offer money to the women involved to silence them?

    To the women's credit, they have refused the money and are, among more women starting to come forward with similar claims and allegations, spearheading legal action.

    I don't think this is quite good enough.

    We now have a large number of women coming forward, many at the risk of upsetting or even destroying the life they now have and have gotten on with since their various incidents, and two large business entities protecting the players and trying to cover it up.

    It's now time for the government to step in and remove this from the hands of individual lawyers, courts and prosecutors.

    It's time for a Royal Commission into these allegations and the acts of the two codes governing bodies to try and sweep this under the carpet and cover it up.

    Doubtless some will see this as not necesary and will be happy to let this go, or even just sacrifice the odd player here & there so it doesn't interrupt next weekends game. But doing this will only add further to the fantasy these men live in that they can continue to do what they want with that feeling of invincibility and the sure feeling that the team, or the corporate heads will bail them out if they have the whistle blown on them.

    I'd be interested in other people's opinions on this.

    Should there be a royal commission into the two codes?
    Do team sportsmen see anything wrong with this kind of thing?
    Is this going to be dealt with or do you think it'll just quietly fade away?
  2. -luigi- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 4
    I think you need to review your facts a bit.

    In one case, a women who had agreed to go back to a players hotel room, and slept with the player, was forced to lie in the bed while the rest of the team had their way with her also.

    The whole team? really?

    I do agree that rape is the most reprehensible crime there is and that actions need to be taken to weed out these bad apples but I think a Royal Commission is going a bit overboard.

    Whilst I have no doubt that this is not an isolated incident I can't believe that all the claims are genuine.

    I have a relative who works for an AFL club (that I will not name) and I have been associated with the club in one way or another since the day I was born and in this time I have seen many women who have made it their goal to sleep with as many of the players as possible (yes AFL players have groupies too).

    Now let me re-iterate, I believe that some of the claims are genuine and that the players in question should be punished to the full extent of the law (though sentencing for rape in this country is sadly lax). But I also believe that there are certain people in this world that will do anything for attention, the line between Fame and Infamy is getting blurrier everyday and the media is testament to this.

    Let's wait until we get some convictions before we start labelling people rapists, innocent before proven guilty and all that.
  3. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    I stand corrected on the first point, while she didn't say "the rest of the team" perhaps i should have reworded that to read "other members of the team".

    It doesn't really make it sound any better.

    A Royal Commission shouldn't need to wait for convictions, not if they can get started with the allegations of the powers in charge attempting to buy silence, at the very least a major investigation should be underway into those claims.

    I am also aware that some women will attempt to sleep with as many AFL players as they can, as you have put it, but this also doesn't excuse the allegations raised of pack rape.

    Also, if you go to the top of your explorer window, go to edit, then select search, enter the word "rapist" into the search field and you'll find the first instance of the word occurring in this thread is in your post.

    Please don't go saying I am calling any group of any people something which I have not said.
  4. -luigi- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 4
    Perhaps I could have worded it better but I never said you called them rapists. I was generalising.

    I am also aware that some women will attempt to sleep with as many AFL players as they can, as you have put it, but this also doesn't excuse the allegations raised of pack rape.

    I never said it did, I was just making the point that some of these women may have willingly slept with these players and then cried rape for the media attention or monetary gain.
  5. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    "I was just making the point that some of these women may have willingly slept with these players and then cried rape for the media attention or monetary gain."

    What about the ones who turned down a large offer of cash and are determined to have their day in court?

    I'm not going to debate the ones who may have jumped on a media bandwagon. The fact is these allegations have come from somewhere and these women have turned their lives upside down by pursuing justice, and those that have been offered cash for silence have refused the cash, in order to have justice.

    You are generalising again, by suggesting that all of these women are making false allegations for "...media attention and monetary gain." while it's a fact that many of the victims won't speak to the media, and are not taking silence money offered to them.

    So, do you think this is unfounded? do you think it should be swept under the carpet?
    Should not justice be sought and punishment served?
  6. Shara_82 Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2001
    star 5
    "I was just making the point that some of these women may have willingly slept with these players and then cried rape for the media attention or monetary gain."

    I'll be the first to admit that yes, that possibly does happen in a very small minority of cases. However the majority of women who cry rape are telling the truth. As MFT said, it's a highly shattering and demoralising experience - it's hard enough for women to come forward in the first place after something like that has happened. To do so usually gets them labelled as, here we are, liars making it up for their own gain.

    They're faced with torment and ridicule. They have to face their attacker in court and be told, as it looks as though these women will, that this horrendously painful experience they went through was consensual.

    Yes, I admit that there are several spineless and disgusting women out there that would make it up, but they are few and far between. The majority will either not come forward, or if they do, do so in the hopes that they will prevent the man/men that have hurt them doing the same to someone else. Hence the media attention - what better way for these women to prevent AFL stars from hurting someone else? By creating a public outcry and making sure that everyone else is warned about it.

    The culture that these men have been living in that encourages them to stick by their mates no matter what and the feelings of invincibility bestowed on them by a public in need of distractions and by corporate execs in need of advertising revenue has finally come into the spotlight as spilling over into their lives off the field and into their private lives, and the lives of those they have affected with their animilistic behaviour.

    You have it exactly right. The culture behind these attacks come from men who have been made to feel they are superior to everyone else. They are made to feel like heroes, like gods, to those around them, and as such feel free to take whatever they want from those around them. They don't understand that when someone says no, they mean it. After all, what is that persons opinion compared to their belief that they are more important than the person they are overpowering.

    (though sentencing for rape in this country is sadly lax).

    That is always going to half the problem in these cases. Even if the man is convicted of rape, a tiny minority of the time, the maximum amount of time they would most likely go to jail for is 4 years. I find that horrendous, personally - this man has taken this woman and violated her in the worst way possible, and he gets 4 years in prison while she has to live with the after affects of this for the rest of her life, which can be up to 20 times the amount of time the man paid for it.

    To make this worse, the conviction rate on rape is appalling. I honestly think lawyers must smile when they are handed a rape case, it's easy money. They walk into court and claim it was consensual. They parade around the outfit that the woman was wearing at the time, and the way she was acting. She may have just smiled at the rapist once, briefly, but that's a sign to the defence that this woman was asking for it. She was asking for this terrible thing to be done to her.

    I think this case should be investigated to the full extent that it possibly can. I think that all the people found to be involved should be punished according to the precedent set for the 2000 Sydney gang rapes - in other words, send the offenders away for a good, long time.

    However, as I brought up earlier, it's most likely that it won't. These players are protected by huge companies, huge amounts of money, and a lot of public good will. This will all be swept under the rug. On the off chance that someone is convicted, they will most likely get a slap on the wrist and a "don't do it again", which really just translates as "be more careful next time, moron".

    Well they're not protected by my goodwill.

    Incidentally, before those who don't know me tear into me for being ?anti-football'
  7. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    I've got to say here, that women throw themselves at these footballers like you wouldn't believe. I had a guy in my class at school who went on to play League for NSW and the Kangaroos. I've been with him after games at his club and have seen the reaction he and his teammates got from the women there. The man was married and still, he could have had his way with a dozen girls each weekend.

    Now, no means no, but when you are a guy not gifted with great brain power, high on alcohol, who usually gets what he wants, who has a perpetual team mentality thrust upon him, who is idolised by thousands and is sexually attractive to many females, problems can occur.

    I'm not condoning what happened (if anything did - we don't know yet), but I think that there are reasons why things happen and before we start condemning people or codes, we need to look at what can be done to change behaviour of not only the players but everyone involved.
  8. -luigi- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 4
    Couldn't agree more Uruk-hai.

    Shara, I know that the majority of rape claims are legit but what we are talking about here is allegations against one particular segment of society where money and fame come into play. And as I have said before I do believe that some of these Women are telling the truth and deserver justice.

    Sportsmen are a popular target world wide for false claims of rape. Wether it be because of money, fame or how they were treated after the act it does happen.

    Does anyone remember what happened with Kobe Bryant?
  9. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    That is always going to half the problem in these cases. Even if the man is convicted of rape, a tiny minority of the time, the maximum amount of time they would most likely go to jail for is 4 years. I find that horrendous, personally - this man has taken this woman and violated her in the worst way possible, and he gets 4 years in prison while she has to live with the after affects of this for the rest of her life, which can be up to 20 times the amount of time the man paid for it.

    Okay, I'm only going to step in here and point out that until (perish the thought) you actually do a few months' lag in a prison, you don't know what it's like. 4 years imprisonment is not at some glorified country club...at least, not here in WA. It's hard time in maximum security with the risk of having a homemade knife stuck in your ribs if you look the wrong way at someone. That's putting completely aside the fact you lose your liberty, you can't do anything without permission, and you are referred to only by your surname. I'm not saying rape isn't a horrible crime--it is, and it deserves punishment. But please, for a second just step back and ask yourself what an appropriate punishment would be bearing in mind the conditions of most prisons.

    To make this worse, the conviction rate on rape is appalling. I honestly think lawyers must smile when they are handed a rape case, it's easy money. They walk into court and claim it was consensual. They parade around the outfit that the woman was wearing at the time, and the way she was acting. She may have just smiled at the rapist once, briefly, but that's a sign to the defence that this woman was asking for it. She was asking for this terrible thing to be done to her.

    That argument is as old as the rolling hills, and most juries are alive to it. But for the record, no criminal lawyer over here, especially me, smiles when a rape case comes through the door. It isn't easy money by any stretch of the imagination. And for that matter, I take a lot of offence when the implication is made that I enjoy getting people off deserved punishment or take some obscene pleasure in watching a rape victim crying on the witness stand. How long is it going to take before people realise that a lawyer is doing his job when he represents his client on the instructions he is given and does so to the fullest extent permitted by the law. You can complain about lawyers "hammering" witnesses or complainants on the stand, but if you do so, take a second to think about this: if you were on trial, facing even the potential 4 years' imprisonment you say is inadequate for a crime you did not commit, wouldn't you want your lawyer to do all he could permitted by law to have you found not guilty? Doesn't that include critically cross-examining witnesses, testing their stories?

    One other thing. Comparatively speaking, a minority of charges laid against accused persons actually are the subject of a plea of not guilty and proceed to trial. The vast majority usually end up as a plea of guilty. And for that matter, on WA statistics, a minority of people are actually found not guilty. Have you got some statistics on your claim that the conviction rate on rape is appalling?
  10. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Rape is a difficult issue though. It's usually one person's word against another without any corroborating evidence. It's damn hard to prove, that's why the DPP doesn't press ahead with rape cases unless there is irrefutable evidence and even then it's difficult.

    I do believe the majority of rapes go unpunished.
  11. Shara_82 Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2001
    star 5
    The 'conviction' rate I was referring to what not what hits the courts, but the number of rapists that get convicted after committing the crime. Since only (and this is from what I remember reading on some government website back in school) that only 1/3 rapes get reported. Now since not all of the reported rapes either get to court, or get a conviction when they do, I maintain that the amount of rapists in jail as compared to the amount of people who rape is ridiculous.

    Edit: Forgot this part.

    . But please, for a second just step back and ask yourself what an appropriate punishment would be bearing in mind the conditions of most prisons.

    I'm sorry, but I fail to have sympathy for those who have done so much damage. Yes, the rapist is in a terrible place, I don't deny that. But what of the woman? How is her torture any less? It isn't. The only difference is that one person did something that deserved punishment.

    Which is quite ironic considering that one of the most common things heard from a female rape victim is "this is my fault. I shouldn't have (insert worn item of clothing, smiled at particular person, taken other route home, gone out with, etc here)..."
  12. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    Excuse me, but now we have two people in this thread saying they know football players and they see women throwing themselves at them.

    Can someone please explain to me how if a woman "throws herself" at a player (much the same way guys throw themselves at women, but with a far less succesful strike rate) that this makes it ok for the player who got lucky to forcefully share the girl with his mates?
    The bottom line is that it doesn't. I don't care if one of these women has headed back to a hotel room with the express desire to re-enact Paris Hilton's porn video. This still does not make it ok for this woman to be held against her will so the other boys can have a go.

    So the argument that the woman in a given incident is throwing herself at a player is invalid, certainly she doesn't have a case for rape against him, but she would against the other players, and i think you can throw in deprivation of liberty as well.

    To the point I raised in my first post though, it has now gotten out of control, too many people have come forward reporting incidents stretching back years, sometimes decades.
    When we now have reports of execs of the clubs stepping in and trying to cover up, it now becomes an issue concerning a number of corporate bodies, if left to individual cases, it is likely that some offenders, either those committing, or those covering up the acts, will slip unnoticed through the system.

    Only a full, public open inquisition into this situation will do anything to clean out those responsible, and restore public faith in an institution that will otherwise be forever stained by this outrage.

    Surely if there is nothing to these claims, or the allegations of coverup, the two codes involved would welcome an open investigation to clear their names.
  13. Saintheart Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Dec 16, 2000
    star 6
    On that point, I think an independent investigation would go a long way towards resolving those concerns.

    But the reality I think is that the clubs in both codes would see it as minor gain for major downside. In such a hypothetical "cleaning-house", even if each and every player in both codes is cleared of wrongdoing, the bad publicity generated before and during the hearings would be colossal, perhaps potentially fatal for clubs that are already on the brink of dissolution...and right or wrong, convening and conducting a full-bore independent review like a Royal Commission (for instance) takes a hell of a long time.

    I'm not saying that's the right way to think about it; to the contrary, a willingness to sweep the boards clean (to my mind) is the best way a club could preserve its integrity and standing in the community. In submitting to such a review the clubs would demonstrate these sorts of crimes towards women are not to be tolerated...especially in a sport/s that's seen as "manly" and is a source of example for thousands of young men and boys around the country.

    The hesitancy of the clubs to submit to such a review stinks to high heaven.
  14. -luigi- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 4
    I don't condone rape in anyway I am simply saying that there are people out there willing to slander someone else to make a buck or become famous.

    I don't know how many times that I can say that I think that many of the women that are coming forward have legitimate cases and many do not.

    All I know is that none of us here are privy to all the facts and thus should not make judgements against those who are accused.
  15. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    NOONE in this thread has made ANY accusations against ANYONE.

    The point i am making here is that a larger authourity than a court chasing several independant rape cases should be placed in charge of an investigation into the culture as a whole, and the allegations of corporate cover up and player protection by the execs from the teams involved, and the managing bodies as a whole.

    You are generalising yet again! You never did answer my point about the women who are staying quiet to the media and have refused silence money.
    Just what do you think those women are after? Meeting a good looking lawyer?

    The point you are making of gold diggers is moot, because if there are any women in this case doing that, then they are in a very tiny and sad minority, and there is no way that these women can be used as the excuse that there shouldn't be a full and open investigation into this.

    Stop making excuses for preventing the course of justice into an occurrence that has ruined the lives of so many at the hands of a group of animals led to believe in their own invincibility [face_plain]
  16. Shadow_of_Evil Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 2001
    star 6
  17. -luigi- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 4
    tell me about it.

    I never said anyone was making accusations about anyone, I said that we shouldn't make 'judgements' when we are not privy to all the facts.

    Stop making excuses for preventing the course of justice into an occurrence that has ruined the lives of so many at the hands of a group of animals led to believe in their own invincibility

    And you accuse me of generalising! I have aknowledged that I believe that many of the women that have come forward are telling the truth.

    I get the impression from your posts MisFitToy that you have already made up your mind that all the accused are guilty, am I wrong for thinking that?

    I am not saying that all the claims shouldn't be investigated, I just think that a Royal Commission is going overboard.
  18. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Can someone please explain to me how if a woman "throws herself" at a player (much the same way guys throw themselves at women, but with a far less succesful strike rate) that this makes it ok for the player who got lucky to forcefully share the girl with his mates?

    If a girl says no, then that's where it should stop. I'm not condoning what's alleged to have happened at all.

    On the other hand, a girl who has group sex with 6 players one week and shows up the next week to do the same doesn't have much credibility when she cries rape.

    I think everyone involved in the whole sorry saga needs to have a good long look at themselves.
  19. Sith Magician Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1999
    star 5
    On the other hand, a girl who has group sex with 6 players one week and shows up the next week to do the same doesn't have much credibility when she cries rape.

    You know, just from what I've seen on the news, this isn't the case, the women who I've seen interviewed have appeared to have not had any previous encounters with the players before. Not that they are claiming to be angels either.
    I spent 11 years on and off in the Army, and I've seen female behaviour that would make Benny Hill blush. On the other hand I've also seen girls who have had a bit too much to drink have a money laden lout try and take advantage of them.
    Just to be clear, I have never witnessed in the army anything like what we are talking about here, but I've seen it come damn close.
    But let me give you an example:
    "Pack mentality" probably isn't something a girl is expecting if she meets some guy out at a club buying drinks and lavishing attention on her, but let's say that girl decides she's met a guy who she likes, she's not exactly Mother Theresa on the moral scale, but nor is she Madonna, so she decides to go back to this guy's hotel room for a night. She then finds herself in a position where she's in a building or room with several of this guys drunken mates, and finds that the guy is more than willing to share her around after he's done with her.
    You don't think under those circumstances she has a right to A) Refuse the other players or B) Cry rape if she's forced to go through with sex for the other players?

    So Uruk, Even in the case of a team groupie like you've described, you seem to think it's ok for a girl to be held down and pack raped if she's happened to have already slept with a couple of the guys doing it to her?
    Hmm, interesting...

  20. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    I don't know anything of the case you described, really. I think it is totally wrong that a girl who intends to have sex with one person can be set upon by a group of men. It's totally wrong.

    I do however have some information regarding the other group incident. I do know some people who have contacts within the club in question and from what I've heard, the girl is no angel.

  21. Shara_82 Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2001
    star 5
    I do know some people who have contacts within the club in question and from what I've heard, the girl is no angel.

    So? Are you telling me now that if a girl has more than a set number of partners, or has a history of experimentation, that makes her unable to say no and as such obliged to go along with whatever they say?

    I don't think so. If a girl says yes 999 times out of a thousand, that one no is still a no. If it's ignored, it's still rape.
  22. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    That's not what I said. I'm saying I have heard a version of what happened by people who are in the know and if true, I'm of the mind that she can't be crying rape.

    However, if it turns out they did rape her, I have no sympathy for them and they should get whatever is coming to them.

  23. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    Thank you for your concise dismissal of this thread SoE, I agree you are entitled to your opinion, but please let me say that I think the same of most of what you post. so i'll just leave that at that.

    "And you accuse me of generalising! I have aknowledged that I believe that many of the women that have come forward are telling the truth.

    I get the impression from your posts MisFitToy that you have already made up your mind that all the accused are guilty, am I wrong for thinking that?"

    I have made up my mind that this should be investigated and those found guilty should be punished, don't go putting opinions in my mouth please.
    I also agree with SaintHeart's statement that a story must be tested in court, if there is nothing to a person's story, so be it, but this has gotten big and way out of hand, so no, i don't feel a royal commission is going overboard.

    And a good point from Shara about the 999 out of 1,000.
    UrukHai, let's say you have a neighbour, at 5pm every friday he turns up on your door and borrows $20, he repays it on monday. he does this every week for a year, then one dayy he says no. He then takes out a golf club and smashes you to the floot, removing the money from his wallet.
    Are you going to have him charged for theft? even if he thinks he's entitled to the money because you've given it to him every week for a year?

    I'd bet you'd have him charged for assault and robbery, and you'd be more than entitled to your day in court.

  24. Silmarillion Manager Emerita/Ex RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 1999
    star 6
    That's not what Uruk said though.
  25. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    It's called an analogy.

    Dictionary.com

    EDIT: Bah! i can't edit my previous post, so let me clear up my typos from that post here so it makes sense:

    "let's say you have a neighbour, at 5pm every friday he turns up on your door and borrows $20, he repays it on monday. he does this every week for a year, then one day you say no. He then takes out a golf club and smashes you to the floor, removing the money from your wallet."

    Sorry, long day [face_plain]
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