Oceania Untouchable heroes? Or out of touch yobbos?

Discussion in 'Oceania Discussion Boards' started by MisFitToy, Mar 22, 2004.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Silmarillion Manager Emerita/Ex RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 1999
    star 6
    Don't be so snide. Uruk said that he heard a different version of events -- probably that the sex with the players was entirely consensual. If it turns out that she was raped, I hope they prosecute the players to the full extent of the law, but you have to realise that not all women are angels.

    EDIT: I also wanted to say that the players need to pick up their game a bit and get in the papers for the things they do ON the field.
  2. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    "you have to realise that not all women are angels"

    Having of course, absolutely no bearing on whether this should be investigated by a more powerful authourity with wider scope for adjudication.
    Nor does it change the fact that this is only one case out of the ones that have come up.
    The words "innocent until proven guilty" have come up in this thread, surely that extends to any assumption that these women are lying?
  3. Silmarillion Manager Emerita/Ex RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 1999
    star 6
    That sounds like doublethink to me! ;)

    Honestly, I have no idea what effect Royal Commission or any other investigation would have on the players' or the accusers behaviours. I think it's something that the Clubs themselves should look at - encouraging players to act like respectable members of society would be a start.
  4. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    Doubelthink to you, commonsense to me.
    i agree that the clubs should be educating their players, and from online news reports about the place it seems they are doing this with determined gusto now.
    A pity that they could never figure oput acceptable behaviour for themselves, but these people aren't generally known for their brain power.
  5. Silmarillion Manager Emerita/Ex RSA

    Member Since:
    Jul 20, 1999
    star 6
    I mean that either the player or the accuser is innocent, not both. Reconciling that both, in your mind, is innocent is doublethink.
  6. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    I understand where you're coming from, that in order to give the accused the benefits of innocent before proven guilty, you are naturaly going to have to treat the accusation as yet to be proven.
    But what is being said here is that the accusation is a lie, made up by someone out for monetary gain, that is going to far in the view of presumption of the accused innocence, and turning the accusation back on the accuser.
  7. -luigi- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 4
    The assumption being made here is that some of the women may be lying.

    There are more false accusations of rape in this world than you think, many believe that there would be no reason for a women to cry rape when there was none. The sad fact is that it does happen. That does not mean however that we should assume that all rape allegations are false nor does it mean we should victimise the accused.

    The whole monetary gain thing is fairly mute in this argument I was just throwing it out there as a for instance as there are many documented cases of women trying to extort money from famous athletes.

    You seem to be missing the point with a lot of people's posts here MisFitToy, I don't think Uruk was saying that because a woman engages in group sex one week with a group of players it means that she's asking for it the next, I think what he was trying to say is that the act may have been consensual and she cried rape after the fact (for reasons unknown).
  8. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    No, i get his point, and it's not a lot of people's posts either.
    I understand his point being as you described it, but what i am saying that wheter he has contacts on the inside or not, he is still going off hearsay.
    The fact she cried rape after the fact has nothing to do with this whole thing needing a full, public investigation.
    A point YOU seem to be missing or ignoring.
  9. -luigi- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 4
    I'm not ignoring it at all, I have said that I believe that all accusations of rape should be taken seriously and investigated.

    For the millionth time, I just think that a royal commision is going to far.

    And for the record a 'public' case would forever tarnish the name of those who 'may' be innocent.
  10. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    For the millionth time, I do not think it's going to far, and as for tarnishing the innocent, wouldn't it clear them?
  11. -luigi- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 4
    you don't think being accused of rape, even unjustly can tarnish a persons reputation?

    And I know your position on the royal commission, seeing that's what this thread is ****ing about! I was just re-iterating my position seeing that you missed it all those other times.
  12. MisFitToy Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2003
    star 3
    And you seem to be missing mine! seeing as yo seem to think you have to repeat the same damn point I just repeated!
  13. Sith Magician Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1999
    star 5
    Hey Katie, didn't you get banned a few weeks ago for only partially astrexing out the F-word? Boy I hope all punishment is consistent ;)
  14. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    The culture that these men have been living in that encourages them to stick by their mates no matter what and the feelings of invincibility bestowed on them by a public in need of distractions and by corporate execs in need of advertising revenue has finally come into the spotlight as spilling over into their lives off the field and into their private lives, and the lives of those they have affected with their animilistic behaviour.

    Firstly, familiarise yourself with these words; "Beyond Reasonable Doubt."

    They are the measure by which crimes, under the Crimes Act (C'wealth) 1901 (or whatever year the various states passed their Acts), are judged to be crimes.

    Thus, when you say Uruk is just basing his decisions on heresay, you should really say, "Where are mine are based on conjecture." This part of one very long sentence; "and the lives of those they have affected with their animilistic behaviour" accuses them of a crime, which YOU cannot prove beyond reasonable doubt that they committed.

    So stop trying.

    And I know it's both pedantic and trivial, but some of us actually prefer paragraphs to have punctuation, and not be one sentence. ;)

    In one case, a women who had agreed to go back to a players hotel room, and slept with the player, was forced to lie in the bed while the rest of the team had their way with her also.

    Was allegedly; otherwise, PPOR.

    This is the most vile and evil act a person can do to another human being, the demoralising act of forcing a person to surrender her body to the viscious needs of a testosterone fueled pack of dogs who have been led to believe that they can do what they like and soldier on to the next conquest is disgusting.

    I'm sorry, but you have the hide to say "NOONE in this thread has made ANY accusations against ANYONE?"

    Sure, you didn't name names but you have all but said "They raped her!". You've implied any number of crimes when really, you have no right to. These men remain accused until such a time as a body, empowered under the separation of powers (and I checked, you're not there) to do so, finds them guilty. You are not saying, the "Accused" or talking about the "alleged incidents", you are accusing them of acts in which you figure not naming will suffice.


    Please don't go saying I am calling any group of any people something which I have not said.

    Oh, sorry, you heavily implied that, accusing them of vile animal acts which could also mean, what, eating their faeces? Sniffing each other's asses? You accused them of committing a crime you did not name; which was implicitly rape.

    But please, for a second just step back and ask yourself what an appropriate punishment would be bearing in mind the conditions of most prisons.

    I have no tolerance for any person convicted as a criminal. If you make a conscious choice to break the law, the mature and responsible thing to do is face the consequences. If you can plead a Section 10 or get no conviction, that's society's way of saying "We forgive you."

    UrukHai, let's say you have a neighbour

    Irrelevant analogies aside, what you seem to forget is that what Uruk actually said, as opposed to what you interpreted, was that in most cases the damage is done by flirting with guys who are as thick as a brick and twice as horny. It's like arseing about in a car and hitting a kid; there's a point where your actions got out of control and it never excuses, or even justifies, the end product. These girls are playing with fire, and that doesn't justify getting burnt. In fact, assuming a meathead is capable of rational thought is a bad move. God gave us blokes two brains and enough blood to think with one.

    I understand his point being as you described it, but what i am saying that wheter he has contacts on the inside or not, he is still going off hearsay.

    And you, MisFitToy, are going off conjecture, so what makes you any more "right"?

    Don't get me wrong, I cheered when
  15. Sith Magician Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1999
    star 5
    If there is one thing I find even more disgusting than the alleged acts, it's the blind defence of these so-called "heroes" by suggesting that some of the women are lying, or brought it on themselves.
    No means no means no. And there is sweet FA you can do to change that fact.
    It's funny how you get someone like Michael Jackson and he's automatically guilty of almost everything the media say about him, but put a sporting "hero" in a similar situation and all of a sudden they can do no wrong.
    The whole situation is one disgusting mess that stinks to hell of rotten morals.
  16. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    I think it's sad when the phrase "sportsman" and "hero" in the same sentence. I mean, didn't Mark Waugh get Aussie of the Year once? Hello, doctors preventing diseases out there!!!

    E_S
  17. Sith Magician Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 14, 1999
    star 5
    I 110% agree with you, they're not heroes, they're sportsmen.
    And it's turning out that some aren't much of men either...
  18. -luigi- Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 26, 2002
    star 4
    If there is one thing I find even more disgusting than the alleged acts, it's the blind defence of these so-called "heroes" by suggesting that some of the women are lying, or brought it on themselves.
    No means no means no. And there is sweet FA you can do to change that fact.
    It's funny how you get someone like Michael Jackson and he's automatically guilty of almost everything the media say about him, but put a sporting "hero" in a similar situation and all of a sudden they can do no wrong.
    The whole situation is one disgusting mess that stinks to hell of rotten morals.


    I think what many of us are simply trying to say here is that in certain circumstances we can't just simply take somebodies word for it when they accuse someone else of committing a crime. I am not defending these players and I am also of the opinion that rape is a disgusting crime and that no definitely means no.

    I would just like to point out that none of these accusations have been proven true yet and that most of the false ones will be weeded out before they go to trial.

    Please don't misinterpret this as me defending rapists or sticking by my supposed brethren, I am merely pointing out that in this country we are presumed innocent until proven guilty.
  19. casual-jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2002
    star 4
    ...I always thought League was a primitive game.

    Hey!
    That was below the belt...
    POINT DEDUCTION!!! :p

    I absolutely love the game, but it's working class roots, and it's brute physicality does lend itself to the stigma of being labelled as primitive. I wish League would stop shooting itself in the foot like this. The SuperLeague debacle, John Hopoate, the Salary Cap rorts and now this. It could be so much better(and more about the football), if it could just keep it's players/clubs out of mischief.
  20. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    //wonders whether or not he should mention his private schooling and GPS rubgy history or not... [face_mischief]

    E_S
  21. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    Union is the better game anyway.

  22. Shara_82 Administrator Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2001
    star 5
  23. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    No, the Orc superbreed is correct. Union > League + AFL.

    Now all we need is for Union to make the Olympics... [face_mischief]

    E_S
  24. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    And get beaten for the gold medal by Jonny Wilkinson? No thanks, once every four years is enough fo this little heart.

    :(


    AFL. Puh-lease.
  25. casual-jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2002
    star 4
    I grew up playing League, but also played Union in High School. I just prefer to both watch and play League. Never really got into the AFL being raised in Queensland, but I do enjoy it when the Lions stick it to the Vic teams.

    ...Hear the mighty roar!!! :D
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.