"Us" and "Them": Why is there Mod/User polarization? How to minimize/avoid it?

One comment on the "how many times has a mod posted in his forum in the past month" line of discussion: Its important to note that which forum is involved make a big difference as far as that goes. Some forums, such as fan sites (to name one example), don't have much traffic - only a bare handful of posts in a month wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary, and might even be enough to qualify the mod as one of the more active users in the forum. On the other extreme, a couple dozen posts in a month in the JCC for one of that forum's mods could be a significant problem, and probably would be. So just saying a mod only posted x number of times in his/her forum in the past month without taking the specific forum into account doesn't really work. I'm not saying that such can't give insight as to how much of a "user" aspect exists for mods, but that straight numbers don't work. Which you probably already realize, I'm just putting it out here as a reminder.

Also, just to give my own perspective, which admittedly is one from someone who hasn't been a mod all that long (roughly 6 months, I think) - I know I still see myself as a user first and mod second. I read most of the posts in the Arena already before I was promoted and about the only change is that I make a little extra effort into checking into the threads I don't normally participate in (NASCAR, NHL). I probably spend a little bit more time here than I used to, but not too significantly so. The only times I really think of myself as a mod is when I happen to see the occasional swear word, or perhaps a spamvertiser, or something like that. Even in MS discussions with the other Arena mods (such as about what game to run next, etc) its still primarily a user-perspective Granted, in addition to my being fairly new, the Arena is probably one of the easier forums to have this attitude with - there aren't too many problems. I've only had to make a few edits or warnings and a couple of locked threads in six months (or however long its been), which a JCC mod would reach in almost no time at all (less than a day at times, probably).

All that said, I can see how this can go two directions - how users perceive mods of their forum (as another user or as an ivory-tower mod) and how mods perceive themselves in their forums - and the two certainly aren't always the same. That should be one thing the Moderator Review Process was doing - letting mods know how users perceive them.

I don't like the idea of forced demotions, especially after a set period of time - some mods probably lose touch fairly quickly (within a year or so) and some can go several years and still be doing a good job of being a user and mod. It would be good if all the mods did an honest self-evaluation of this, because that would be a good starting point. It has to start with all being completely honest with themselves, though, because I could see it being easy to convince oneself that he or she is more in touch with the community than he/she actually is.

 

Building on ASO's idea, I think that since a few mods around here have posted that they've appreciated the mod review process and have learned from it, why not have reviewed mods write for the MSU about what they learned about themselves and what they intend to change and/or continue doing? For example, I seem to recall PRENN talking freely about his own review process and how he really seemed to get a lot out of it. While I can't recall specifics, the fact that I know he took user suggestions to heart makes me feel like he's keeping connected to the community.

So, a moderator comes under review on Week One, and on Week Three, the process is over. In the next MSU, that moderator compiles his own summary of what he has learned about himself. Basically, it would be the same as being able to talk freely about one's own process, only in an official "release" rather than at random. For a moderator to be able to produce a final "lessons learned" shows real interpretation of user feedback and some creativity on his ideas for making changes to personal habits or improving the community.

EDIT: R...J brings up a good point about board traffic versus mod posting habits, but I will say that as a semi-member/lurker of a certain board with very few posts per month, I sort of count on the moderator to set the pace of the board. When the board is slow anyway, it's essential. I've encountered times when I just ignore the board completely because I know that no one is there, but in particular, the mod isn't there, either.

 

ok, lets break it down then. I've pulled out data on all JC mods, their total posts, posts in their forums, and private posts.

Makes for interesting reading.

Mods - total posts in desending order
712 Zaz
602 NYCitygurl
563 GrandAdmiralJello
460 Skiara
400 Grimby the Hutt
393 TwilekJedi
358 The2ndQuest
342 PrincessChattyCathy
340 MASTERPRENN
340 s65horsey
310 Rogue?Jedi
299 DarthIntegral
298 Lowbacca
224 Master_Keralys
205 ObiWan506
200 Jabbadabbado
195 Havac
174 GARTH_MAUL
149 LAJFETT
147 VaderLVR64
144 EmpireForever
125 KELIA
100 Jedi Trace
98 GeneralKenobi
96 HanSolo29
89 Saintheart
64 Strilo
61 The_Face
56 Imperial_Hammer
55 Rogue_Follower
52 Rogue1-and-a-half
48 AdamBertocci
48 SoloCommand
44 LemmingLord
36 Raven
28 Gobi-1
16 JadeSolo
10 Darth-Stryphe
9 jedimasterbac
8 DVEditor
7 Sister_Sola
7 Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
6 jedi_Master_Connor
5 Uilmuteiz
0 scifi_3d_zoo

Mods with less than 150 posts this month - how many were in their forum?
102 KELIA
100 VaderLVR64
69 EmpireForever
64 LAJFETT
47 Rogue_Follower
47 Rogue1-and-a-half
42 SoloCommand
39 AdamBertocci
28 Imperial_Hammer
28 Gobi-1
26 Saintheart
19 HanSolo29
19 LemmingLord
14 Raven
11 Strilo
10 Jedi Trace
8 Darth-Stryphe
7 Sister_Sola
6 GeneralKenobi
6 JadeSolo
4 Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
2 The_Face
2 DVEditor
2 jedi_Master_Connor
0 jedimasterbac
0 Uilmuteiz
0 scifi_3d_zoo

Mods with less than 150 posts this month - how many were in private forums?

46 LAJFETT
29 GeneralKenobi
23 The_Face
19 EmpireForever
12 Strilo
10 VaderLVR64
10 Jedi Trace
10 JadeSolo
7 KELIA
7 HanSolo29
6 Imperial_Hammer
5 Rogue_Follower
5 SoloCommand
5 LemmingLord
4 Rogue1-and-a-half
4 Saintheart
3 DVEditor
2 Raven
2 Darth-Stryphe
2 jedimasterbac
2 Uilmuteiz
1 Dark_Jedi_Kenobi
1 jedi_Master_Connor
0 AdamBertocci
0 Gobi-1
0 Sister_Sola
0 scifi_3d_zoo



Anyone there immediately looking at demotion / intervention ?

 

So far I've checked 3 of Malkie's claims.

Sci-fi 3d zoo is a VIP. I don't know when he was demoted though but the staff architecture hasn't been updated yet.

Sister Sola's info seems to be correct.

GeneralKenobi's info is way off as he mods at least 3 forums and has 20 plus posts in them within the last week let alone the month.


EDIT: I've checked a couple of more like DJK and Gobi-1 and they seem to be accurate. With the realization that the boards are off 70% in terms of activity, one has to believe that that might also translate into mod activity as well. Also the month is not over yet, there's still a few days to go. So some people will make it over the one post a day average.

But still, the point is made. If you mod one forum and average 1 post a day, then maybe we can do with less mods. I'm sure some other mod would be able to take over if all that forum requires is one post a day. Or maybe these people need more to do.

 

Don't forget that the admins also mod Comms.

 

scifi_3d_zoo is most definitely a manager, just hasn't changed their colours since promotion from default red.
You are correct about GeneralKenobi's 'forum' posts, I only included Comms posts, and neglected to include true mod-forum posts. I did it entirely by hand, so there are bound to be a couple of errors. Soz.

 

Dear Malkie and Unhappy Comms Users,

Hello! My name is Imperial_Hammer, a moderator of this board's Role Playing Forums. These boards include the Star Wars Role Playing Forum the Non Star Wars Role Playing Forum, and the Role Playing Resource Forum. You guys really should come visit some day, as I know you guys have not. We're always looking for new players.

Since you've pretty much called me out here (as well as all mods under 150 posts), I'm writing you guys this post to tell you why I should not be demoted.

First, a little background on the Role Playing Forums. Originally the Star Wars RPF was created sometime in 2001, as the EUC wanted somewhere to roleplay. It stood alone for 4 years under the fan-activities forum until 2005, when the Non Star Wars RPF and the RPR were created to expand this section of the boards. The RPFs then also got promoted to its own category during that time, which have done a great service to them. I originally came to the forums in 2004, and was just recently promoted in 2008 to replace our beloved moddess NaboosPrincess. The SWRPF is a moderately busy section of the boards, usually clocking in around 10-12th place on the top 30-day boards list. The NSWRPF and RPR do not place on any top list, although this is something I am working to correct.

The RPF is quite unlike other segments of the boards. Here is why. Firstly, it is comprised of Role Playing Games. You have to sign up to join them, and its usually for a long term commitment. There are only 3 social threads between our 3 boards, and they tend to be only moderately busy. This is because people come to my boards to write, not to socialize. Additionally, the RPFs operate on a different standard of censure than most boards. We enforce a PG-13 rating for our games, same as Fanfic. No excessive gore, no slash, no excessive sexuality, etc. And for the most part, the people in the RPF follow these rules. Over my last year here, I have banned nobody outside of spammers, and I think I usually do one or two language/flaming edits a month.

So RPF society is basically distinguished by: 1.) Medium Traffic, 2.) Creative Writing, 3.) A more strict standard of rules and 4.) Well behaved posters

This unique board culture affects my moderating in a number of ways:

1.) Low Post Count: Both Saint and myself have roughly the same amount of posts in our forums. This is because we not only are constrained by the same realities of long-term creative writing threads, but there are less places to actively gab as there would be in more Community-style Threads
2.) High Mod Actions: RPF maintains a 90 minute edit window. Sometimes people want their posts changed, like all writers. So we do a lot of editing. We also do a lot of thread locking, as we allow only two games per user to maintain quality.

Because of the realities of the RPF's culture, I also do a few things other people do not:

1.) I'm a program person. This means I spend some time in private threads consulting moderators to make things happen behind the scene. I not only do RPF Awards four times a year, but we have also had a successful Fanfic-RPF writing challenge that I needed to consult the Fanfic Mods about. I'm also working on a joint RPF-WNU-EUC-SWC adoptions/gaming program. This would cause a higher-than-usual private board post rate.
2.) I heavily utilize IM services. I talk to a ton of my users through AIM/MSN, I would say that they know me very very well. This type of communication and activity would not be reflected in any sort of post count.

In addition, my forum has an unusually high amount of opportunities for user-mod interaction. Our moderating philosophy is to work as

 

Nobody ever said Quantity > Quality and I dont think any of what previously has been said has to be interpreted as a witch hunt. These are only numbers and numbers can deceive. It can only be used as an indication of how things stand. Like malkie said, the dog couldnt have been eating the homework of an significant number of mods at the same time. Some have good excuses, others are deadwood, but you cant tell them apart with just these numbers

It is however telling, that some mods post more in private forums than the forums they were promoted for to mod. And that the relative newer mods seem to post more than the veteran mods. Finally, I kinda LOL-ed at the fact that the mods who usually have the biggest mouth of all and are always over anybody who even dares to suggest they have lost touch are the ones most guilty of above...

 

I've just been looking at the Fan Activities: Fan Films, Fan Audio, sci-fi3D Forum. It's a moderately active forum. Not dead but not fast pace either.



It has 4 moderators all of which only mod that forum as far as I can tell from the architecture.

AdamBertocci is all over that forum. 40 posts inside that forum this month. When not found there, he seems to post on community. One private board message this month. Pretty good from my viewpoint.

DVeditor. Has about 20 posts this month. 3 in that forum, 3 in communications (for the icons thread), seven for census, and 7 in private forum. Last month he had 1 for comms, 4 for his forum, and about 10 for private forums. I don't know anything about vacations.

sci-fi 3d zoo has one post in the last 3 months. He is still a manager apparently but has the VIP look to his colors. Easily overlooked.

uilmuteiz has 4 posts in the past 2 months, none in the forum it says he moderates. They're all in the FanForce Canada section because he's the French Canadian RSA.

 

While a lot of those stats are correc, and some are troubling, I agree with Hammer that sometimes stats don't tell you much.

I'm going to use HanSolo29 as an example. If you use last month as Sept 26 to today, I counted 49 posts in her forums, not 19 (but since it's me, there's always the possibility of a couple points of error either way). I think yu must have counted Fan Art or Indy IV, but not both. I've never visited Indy IV, but I'm fairly regular in Fan Art, and there are just days when there isn;t much to talk about. Sometimes there are a couple days between times that anyone posts a new piece of artwork, and if you've already commented on what's there, there really aren't any post you can make. I'm fairly sure that Indy IV is a small forum, so again, you can't make a bunch of posts every day. Not only that, but Steph was gone from Sept. 26-Oct 4, so her activity is for three weeks, not four.

As a comparison, her co-mod had 28 posts in Indy IV. I didn't count her IV posts, but I think they're doing about equal. Then I checked out the last 25 posts of Steph in Fan Art against a few of the regulars. She posts an equal amount or more than the people I picked, and her count would be higher if she hadn't been gone for that week.


(Sorry, Steph, to use you as an example.)


HS29 is just a somewhat-random example because I hang out in her forum sometimes so I'm able to say that it moves more slowly than other forums because it takes people time to create and post art. I don't think she's a bad mod (actually, I think she's pretty awesome) and I'm just trying to say that post count isn't everything, you have to factor other things in. There are some stats that scare me a little, particularly near the bottom of the list, but hers doesn't.


And you have to take a look at the forums as well. Take the top 5 mods on the list. Zaz has a community forum (Amph) and does a crazy amount of posts and is just really, really involved in every single thread in his forum. I've got three forums, and one is a community forum. Jello and Grimby are both JCC mods and Skiara, in addition to modding a community forum (WNU) is an RSA.

Next five: TJL, Cathy, and Prenn are JCC mods (and TLJ has two forums). Quest has a three forums. horsey has two community forums, both of which I believe are classified as large forums.

So in the top ten are all 5 JCC mods (which is the busiest and most community-oriented, post-a-lot forum), 2 mods with two forums, 2 mods with three forums, and Zaz, who is awesome and I'm a little bit convinced that he's some kind of superhero or something. All 10 (with the possible exception of Quest, since I don't visit his forums) have at least one, sometimes two community forums.


Also, you didn't quite get all the mods (you missed Miana and Dajuan at least) and some of your other stats were wrong (for instance, Face posted a lot more than twice in his forums - fanfic has 4 boards - in the last month). I'm not trying to nitpick (I know it looks that way, but I'm honestly not) and I know you said you were aware that your stats weren't 100% accurate, but I'm just trying say that you can't judge all the mods based on those numbers.



Edit: Wow, I talk a lot And in typing, missed two or three posts above mine. However, my point still stands that the list is something that should draw attention to some of the mods, certainly, but not all who have under 150 posts this month.


Edit #2: In addition to the above (I know it's not your job to do this and creating the list was probably time-consuming) you didn't check back more than this month. I know you can't just pull a random month as an example because things could have gone downhill since then, but this just could, for some, be one of those really bad months where there are big tests or a big thing at work or a family vacation or a relative got sick or they got sick or something. Doesn't apply to everyone, but I know that a couple people have been gone or have said (at least to their co-mods, and I know that that might not be enough) th

 

In all fairness every one of your points here not only takes this discussion back to the "Us vs. Them" mentality, it also shows that the way you're feeling persecuted, questioned of intent, may show you the way some users, certainly not all by a longshot, but some users feel persecuted by members of the MS.

And not for nothing, but sarcasm isn't needed at your end, as you can't be banned by a normal user for them interpreting a certain trollish, arrogant, manner from your post.

I know, perhaps we can set up a MS notes thread here in comms, and users from other forums that have never even visited users from other forums, and compare notes? You know I could totally learn that mod A that I've never even seen post before sucks, because user from that forum told me so, and that cements my opinion on them, because that user said so.

Perception is a two way street, you guys in MS, most of you having had no exposure to users in foreign to you forums, do the exact same thing to normal users. So don't act like this is a witch hunt.

 

Okay... wow.

I don't think anyone is trying to impose JCC standards on other forums, and I don't think that anyone is witch hunting or lynch mobbing. Malkie is not "calling people out" and you are getting extremely defensive over not much.
All Malkie did was post some statistics. He posted numbers. He failed to account for moderators who mod more than one forum, that's a problem we need to fix. It doesn't account for green time or forum culture either, we all realize that, it's just a starting point.

I think we can all agree, objectively, that 0 posts in your forum over the last month (not accounting for green time) should be grounds for demotion, or at least very strict investigation, no matter the forum culture.

On the other hand, no one is calling for demotion of people who have been posting in their forums over the last month, we're only looking at numbers right now. If the fact that you've only posted in RPF 28 times in the last month (about once a day) bothers you enough to make you so defensive, then maybe that's a part of the problem, and it's good that we're assessing it now.


Edit: Juli, you are always saying that the Us vs Them mentality is a two way street, but I've never seen you acknowledge the other way. Getting defensive in response to IH getting defensive isn't going to accomplish anything.

 

Very interesting reactions to what was simply a list of numbers without bias or interpretation.

I did nothing of the sort, but your reaction says a lot.

However, this degree of sarcasm has absolutely no place in Comms, and that's far more questionable than any posting habits.

They were deliberately excluded for being primarily FF mods where a significant portion of their responsbilities lie offsite. I may have accidentally included other FF mods who also have JC responsibilities, but that wasn't my intention.

While you have access to the userportal I do not, so I'm jumping between various windows trying to work out how many forums mods work in, and whether they are JC or JC+FF. I tried to capture all of the forums mods are supposed to post in, but the list I put together isn't perfect, and wasn't supposed to be. A number of things are clear from the list, and I'm not surprised in the slightest as to who is active, and who is relatively inactive.

Lastly, all of the suggestions you made about people being on reduced time for various reasons is fair, but if you return to one of my earlier posts you'll see I posted exactly the same thing. I'm sure there are valid, genuine explanations for some mods, however does apply to all, and it certainly wasn't communicated to the userbase via the established methods.

Exactly. Cheers Dani

 

My apologies for the sarcastic-ish snippet and any offense it may have caused. I've edited it out accordingly, though for whatever it means, it wasn't meant to be taken that way.

As to the purpose of your list, Malkie, I was not aware at the time of my post it was not an authoritative one. Your 11:42 post mentioned only a couple of errors. I read that as two or three. The "obvious" points mentioned by ASG/ASO were not so seemingly obvious to myself at the time, or if they were, it didn't seem as if they were getting their dues.

As to my reaction, though this digresses, the only reason I am defensive is that when you put my numbers on a list like that, I do look bad. I think it, and I think others would think so as well. 26 (it is higher by the way, though not by much) posts looks low when compared to the people at the top of the list clocking 500-600 posts. My post was merely an explanation for my lower numbers, and at the end, there may have been some emotions in play. I fully admit to being a human... sometimes I go too far.

It looks as though my post was the result of a miscommunication, and as such, I retract my more colorful language of lynchmobs and witch-hunts. If this conversation is mindful of green-time and forum culture, I am all for it.

-I_H

 

Oh, I completely agree. My very long post was just me taking a really long way of saying that an across-the-board less than 150 posts in the last month doesn't work for all mods for various reasons, but there are certainly worrying things on the list that should be looked into by the admins. I think I might have missed one of your earlier posts, thanks for summarizing

And actually, you're more accurate than the admin tools since they're not constantly updated so I just went through the "previous posts" in profiles and did the jumping-windows thing as well.

Basically, it seems we're for the most part in agreement


Edit: life would be so much easier if I could spell . . .

 

So... just a light hearted, only semi serious question, but at the same time, a question I'm very curious to know the answer to...

... when a moderator edits out sarcastic / semi snooty remarks they've made, after the alotted editing time regular users get... does the inappropriate / semi snooty remark go into their user notes?

Again... light hearted, but honest question.

 

I'll put it in there myself Harpuah...

Feel free to ask any other mod to check if you question my honesty.

-I_H

 

Will do... and thanks.

 

I'm pretty sure I had to put my own notes in once for being a snarky female dog.

 

Out of curiosity ...

Someone (not sure who) mentioned that you can see a good number of posts in private forums, but not much mentioned in MSUs to correspond to it.

Most of my posts in MS deal with:

a) the Arena discussion thread, where we brainstorm new games, ideas, and the such.

b) Doing the same thing in an SWC thread

c) updating that I will not be away, but have limited access, so my posting and monitoring times will not be normal.


Do you really want MSUs to contain selections like "DarthIntegral and Rogue...Jedi are working on a new "Streak for Colors" game for the Arena forum. They continue to hammer out details." and "DarthIntegral and s65horsey discussed ways to try to cultivate leadership in the SWC games." and "DarthIntegral will be at a conference this weekend and will log on 1-2 times a day, but won't have his usual online time".


I doubt that's the sort of information you want in an MSU. Yet, I can pile up 20-30 posts in MSU hammering out details for a single new game or a single new idea for the Arena. And, if that's not in an MSU, you don't know what my private forum posts are actually going for.

 

A lot of MS posts are even more clerical, too. Things like "I promoted User A for winning Trivia Mafia Monopoly Star Wars Edition" or "I edited a curse word out of a forum I don't moderate". I don't think you can compare things like that to a 850-word role-playing post or even a review of 7 pages of fanfic. Heck, I might even argue that a "poop lol" post from a JCC mod takes more thought than the administrative paperwork.

 

If that's the case, then why even have a private board? I mean, saying that you promoted somebody for winning a game could easily be done via PM, right?

Is MS really necessary?

Perhaps exploring the thought of opening these things up for discussion with the general public, especially now that it's a whole lot smaller, may be a worthwhile notion.

I could see how a private board was necessary when this place was a lot larger, and much busier, but now, it seems silly to me. There really is no need for this distance. Even opening up avanues to discuss potential new mods would be beneficial. Of course, you'd get goofy gag posts / ideas, but those would be easy to weed through.

As KW said in one of these threads, we are a smaller user base now, and the majority of us know eachother, or at least of eachother... perhaps eliminating some of the distance between the moderator discussions, and the user base... and even involving the user base would be an idea worth exploring.

 

?? That's the sort of information we already get in an MSU. Green time/Reduced time is always mentioned in MSU's and I've seen plenty of MSU's lately that say things like "A new game is being discussed for X forum." and "DarthIntegral and s65horsey discussed ways to try to cultivate leadership in the SWC games."

That kind of information is the kind of information that MSU's were made to convey. Do you read MSU's? It sounds as though you haven't read one for a good while. What exactly do you expect to be in those without this kind of information?

 

Actually Inty, if you go back to the MSUs from 2002 you'll see that things like that were included. There are two reasons why that kind of information should be included: 1) because someone might have ideas that could help in either nutting it out, or volunteer to help in some capacity; and 2) if nothing else it goes back to the perception issue in that it would show the mods to be activelyworking on improving the forums.

Please note that in anything I'm saying, it is speaking to the general situation. I know that there are some forums that are running really well. But there are some that aren't as well as some that people believeare running well but only because one section of the community that should be there no longer bothers with posting. Some things have to be addressed at the general level, but it doesn't automatically mean that everyone is doing a "bad job".

There's also something to be said about they way in which people (mode and users alike) post here in Comms, but that will have to wait until I get home tonight. Although a lot of the preceding posts are an example of it.

Edit: Something else, in situations like this it is sometimes better for getting an issue to be dealt with to actually keep things at the general level. I admire the work that malkie has done to quantitate his point somewhat, but as the reactions to it from all parties have shown, it engenders a "witch-hunt" type attitude that does more harm than good. What is probably the better course of action for a thread here in Comms to be productive is stating that there's some not-so-encouraging evidence as his first post did, and then the hard data should go to the Head Admin and followed from there. And with a relatively transparent relationship between the MS and users then actions taken would be seen in time and therefore the issue not be swept under the carpet.

 

Harps, a private board for the admins is 100% necessary. If one expects some semblance of consistency, there needs a place where rules and rulings can be discussed, and not have the threads clogged up by non-mods.

Also, it makes sense to notify mods of a game promotions or whatever, and PM is not a practical way to conduct this.