US military in prisoner torture Photographs

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by MomentOfTriumph, Apr 30, 2004.

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  1. GarthSchmader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 3, 2003
    star 4
    Yeahp. I'm from Oklahoma. No surprise. Inhofe's always been a lame-o. His mastery of the english language lingers somewhere right beneath Dubya's.
  2. VadersCodPiece Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 14, 2004
    star 3
    I havn't read through this thread.. but has it been discussed that these hostage abuses could be some type of psychological warfare?

    Like the things that they did to the prisoners or made the prisoners do were meant to scare the Iraqi fighters into submitting for fear that they would suffer the same fate?
  3. My favorite Ithorian Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 6, 1999
    star 1
    Now that tactic doesn't seem to work, does it? Just ask the headless American.

    Anyway, this is where I say let America rot in Iraq. I was in favor of the invasion at first, but now I hope all the other members of the coalition withdraw their troops.

  4. Short Round McFly Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 1999
    star 6
    I agree that it was wrong for the soldiers to do what they did, but if Red Cross is going to do a prison tour Puerto Rico and Cuba should be the next stop ;) Or would be not be "right" if I judged those non-Americans?

    I have a relative who had made some trips to Puerto Rico to see a friend and a relative of that friend was put in a jail for a crime he did not commit and he was in their three years. But nobody ever cares to whine about that sort of thing, right? :) An innocent kid getting thrown in a hellhole for three years and contracting a disease isn't as wrong and something to complain about as to what happens to possible war criminals, especially since it had nothing to do with America :)

    Sn Islamic militant Web site showed the beheading of an American civilian in Iraq and said the execution was carried out by an al-Qaida affiliated group to avenge the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers.

    Hmm, this is never brought up, I wonder why? Oh, because it also makes the Iraqis look bad too, right? :) Kind of funny how it's excusable when a non-American retaliates, but when Americans do something they are always the barbaric ones.

    As I said, I thought the soldiers' actions were wrong, but the Anti-U.S. bias is ridiculous.
    When the U.S. retaliated toward Afghanistan, people were crying how terrible America was and, even though America being right or wrong in Iraq isn't a point I want to argue in this thread, these prison torture photographs by several rotten apples > American citizen getting his head chopped off. "But you have to understand what it is like to be attacked..." Oh, I- I see, never mind :)

    I'm sure all of that is going to be taken the wrong way, even though as I state for the third time that I think their actions were wrong, but, oh well ;)

    [image=http://img53.photobucket.com/albums/v163/Rozarooni/PCsucks.gif]
  5. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Yes, to satisfy the emotionally immature contingent of the United States; Americans being tortured does not, in any way, dimish what happens to others. Just because American soldiers are dying in bomb attacks in Iraq doesn't make the clubbing to death of Iraqi prisoners like so many baby seals, acceptable, nor does it make Abu Grahib any different.

    I know it's un-American to have anything less than extreme, polarised views, but you can say they're both bad instances and not be anti-American and pro-Terrorist. Honest.

    E_S
  6. cheese_boy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 4
    I find the 'two extremes' you talk about (Sai) endlessly fascinating. No such thing exists here in Britain. We don't find ways to endlessly defend our PM because we feel it's our patriotic duty not to. Ho-hum.

    Perhaps a small minority bandy behind the Government no matter what, but here we want answers from our Government, and our Government is refusing to give them, instead trying to turn legitimate concerns from the Opposition into insults against our troops! It's absurd to believe that Geoff Hoon, the PM's Special Envoy to Iraq, the Human Rights Envoy to Iraq, the list goes on, were /all/ left out of the loop by junior delegates!
  7. Short Round McFly Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 1999
    star 6
    Hmm, I don't remember saying it wasn't wrong for what the U.S. soldiers have done, but it has gotten more attention than the more brutal act on someone who wasn't even fighting or doing anything to even be imprisoned, and there was no high authority above them to say "Well, we apologize for their actions". I'm not saying that we shouldn't look at the Iraqi prison torture as an issue, any soldiers who abuse their power should be given what they deserve and it should be shoved in the face of any other soldier so they know their circumstances rather than let anything get out of control. But it seems as though a vengeance act that Americans do(9/11 and Afghanistan) and a vengeance act that Iraqis(Al Quaida as it suspected) do to Americans, especially one who wasn't even fighting, is looked on in a totally different light and it's the contrasts that I was pointing out.
  8. cheese_boy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 4
    While they're both bad, the bombing of an entire country that had little to do with 9/11 (Oh yeah..they 'HARBOUR TERRORISTS! QUICK! SOMEONE CALL NORTHERN IRELAND!) and failing to do anything useful other than raze the poor bastards who live there to the ground are on a slightly different scale.

    Doesn't mean I condone either, nor think of the perpertrators of either any better than the other, I just think there's a scale issue involved in comparing the brutal murder one poor sod who was bizarrely, held by the US and then seemingly left to his own devices to the brutal murder of thousands for no reason other than the /same/ thirst for revenge.

  9. Darth Vince Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2000
    star 4
    I don't really understand why that was locked? That wasn't a tangent, it was about the issue of deciding to view something, or deciding not to, and the reasons behind that.
  10. Short Round McFly Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 1999
    star 6
    While they're both bad, the bombing of an entire country that had little to do with 9/11 (Oh yeah..they 'HARBOUR TERRORISTS! QUICK! SOMEONE CALL NORTHERN IRELAND!) and failing to do anything useful other than raze the poor bastards who live there to the ground are on a slightly different scale.

    As I predicted, many people would misinterperet what I said. Not that it's your fault, but I didn't want to be too overly detailed on something that I just wanted to be a few paragraphs. ;)

    I wasn't saying that Iraq was in retaliation to 9/11 but I was comparing America's retaliation from 9/11 to Iraq's retaliation to the American invasion and how people look at both sides, though the overall Iraq war is something I don't care to debate in this thread since it isn't the place to do that.
  11. cheese_boy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 4
    Hey, don't get me wrong - these people are the serial killers of democratic Iraq. They're sadistic arseholes. But they, like the US torturers taking such pleasure in 'following orders' can't be taken as representative of a whole, but more of a symbol of just how pissed off Iraq is becoming with the occupying forces.
  12. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Shorty - wasn't directed at you matey! :)

    E_S
  13. Short Round McFly Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Nov 13, 1999
    star 6
    But they're part of kind of people we are fighting against. At least America and the higher authorities are ashamed at what our few soldiers have done and those responsible are getting reprimanded for it.

    Sai - ACK! So I wrote all that afterward thinking you were talking to me and then cheese-boy and I got in a discussion with him replying to me and then you come and-- :eek:
  14. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    But I'd interject here and say for many, a reprimand isn't enough. Besides an obvious violation of the Third Geneva Convention, (Phew, lucky you opted out of the ICC [face_mischief]) the actions were hugely politically naive and ignorant. See my posts in the Iraq thread for more.

    I feel, however, this issue is going to just get more complicated for people here. When I read Qui-Rune saying that Arabs only understand violence, I'm both annoyed and saddened. Annoyed, because it's such a ******* stupid thing to say, and saddened, because there's a pride in being ignorant these days.

    E_S
  15. Qui-Rune Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2002
    star 4
    When I read Qui-Rune saying that Arabs only understand violence, I'm both annoyed and saddened. Annoyed, because it's such a ******* stupid thing to say, and saddened, because there's a pride in being ignorant these days.

    Please...get off your high horse. Look at the past 35 years of "talks" and "negotiations" thruought the Middle East. Sight one example when they worked.

    Saddam Hussein "slapped" the UN in the face how many times? How many different resolutions did he break?
    Did he get out of Kuwait when asked? Hell no.

    America has been up to it's neck in this crap longer than I have been alive. All of my life I have watched this because we are so involved. It has been in our faces ALL THE TIME!!!!!(Not my choice, mind you.)

    I am sure you have a different perspective living in Australia. So spare me the insults, stay down under and eat your kangaroo.
  16. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
    I am sure you have a different perspective living in Australia. So spare me the insults, stay down under and eat your kangaroo.

    Touche' Ender_Sai, you Antipodean marsupial muncher, you!
  17. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Besides an obvious violation of the Third Geneva Convention

    The Geneva treaties are codified into the UCMJ. A violation of one equates to a violation of the other.
  18. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    I would like to remind all the non-Americans that America is the greatest Empire on the Face of the Earth, and you can act all superior and pretend you don't care, but you do. ANd you should be grateful we haven't taken over YOUR country, because we could if we wanted to.

    In fact, thanks to McDonalds and Coca Cola's valient empire building and colonizing, we already have...
  19. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    ANd you should be grateful we haven't taken over YOUR country, because we could if we wanted to.

    Not countries with nukes...

    (yes, I know you're joking)
  20. Iwishiwasajedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Mar 24, 2002
    star 4
    I'm tired of seeing these photos and keeping my thoughts to myself, so get ready for a good rant, one which may not be pretty.

    When I first saw (actually I heard about them first) the pictures showing the torture and humiliation of Iraqi POWs by our soldiers, I was speechless. I have to admit, up to now, I had been brainwashed into thinking my country would never do such awful things. A few weeks back, when it was revealed that inmates had died at Guantuanomo (sp?) Bay, I questioned the US's millitary, but basically thought they had died of natural causes and the media was just jumping on it.

    Now that I realize that the United States, the "wonderful", "gold-paved street", "land of oppurtunity" country has no higher morale standards with prisoners than Al-Queda or any other terrorist group, I am appaled. Now I feel sickened to even call myself an "American", and even sicker at the thought that I share my birthday with a country whose military leaders are so thoughtless and cruel as to force helpless prisoners to strip nude and become human body piles. Worse yet, these fools, who claim to be leaders, force the soldiers underneath them to stand proudly by these piles, as though the Iraqi race is a pile of **** that Americans can step all over.

    I thought Mr. Bush said we were going to Iraq not only to remove the masses of WMDs that they had, but to also free the country's citizens of the cruel reign of power by Saddam Hussein. Now I know that I was right all along: the only reason we were really going was because Iraq had oil. And tons of it. Where are the WMDs Mr. Bush? Were you expecting to find them while humiliating the men who were forced to become soldiers of Saddam? If you ask me, Saddam sounds like a better person when it comes to humanity than George Bush.

    Then, during "hearings" held by congress and the senate, most of which were held only to pretend like top political figures gave a damn, all of the head honchos used the acts of the terrorists as an excuse for the acts committed by military leaders in Iraq. Well ****. Let me go out and kill someone simply because they killed someone else. The "Grand" United States should be a country that can set good examples for the rest of the world, time and time again. Kiss that goodbye. Oh, and Killing someone just because they killed someone else? We also have that right in our own country: It's called the death penalty.

    And what about the family of Nicholas Berg? Because of the stupid acts of these military leaders, Berg is dead. How can this family ever forgive these fools?

    So, to all the asses who want to use the dragging of US soldiers through the streets and the hanging of those bodys on bridges as an excuse for brutally humilliating Iraqi troops, go burn in hell. It's obvoious that with your morale standards, you might as well anyway. [face_plain]
  21. Darth Vince Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2000
    star 4
    We're all pretty intelligent people in here. We're all in here talking about alot of horrible things that have happened recently. People are dying because they don't understand each other, and they get angry. People are dying because they don't understand that we're all gonna see it differently. There's not truth to most of it. Only opinions, points of view based on the experiences and mindset of each culture.
    My point is, we're in here talking about this horrible stuff, then we disagree, and we start fighting. There are no answers out there. Anyone who claims to undestand this horrible mess completely is full of it. So why don't we listen, try to undestand each other, instead of running people who disagree with you down.
  22. Obi-Wan McCartney Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    An excerpt from a recent Thomas Friedman article

    ...Why, in the face of rampant looting in the war's aftermath, which dug us into such a deep and costly hole, wouldn't Mr. Rumsfeld put more troops into Iraq? Politics. First of all, Rummy wanted to crush once and for all the Powell doctrine, which says you fight a war like this only with overwhelming force. I know this is hard to believe, but the Pentagon crew hated Colin Powell, and wanted to see him humiliated 10 times more than Saddam. Second, Rummy wanted to prove to all those U.S. generals whose Army he was intent on downsizing that a small, mobile, high-tech force was all you needed today to take over a country. Third, the White House always knew this was a war of choice ? its choice ? so it made sure that average Americans never had to pay any price or bear any burden. Thus, it couldn't call up too many reservists, let alone have a draft. Yes, there was a contradiction between the Bush war on taxes and the Bush war on terrorism. But it was resolved: the Bush team decided to lower taxes rather than raise troop levels...


  23. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    Please...get off your high horse. Look at the past 35 years of "talks" and "negotiations" thruought the Middle East. Sight one example when they worked.



    No, I slept through 5 years of undergrad and postgrad... [face_plain]

    1979. Egypt, Jordan sign peace treaty with Israel. Pwned.

    I think you need to understand the way the MidEast political structure differs from ours.

    I've said it before in other posts, so let me suggest you check them out too. Basically, Arab states are weak states, and so their leadership is based off a tenuous grip for legitimacy in nations where the people have nothing in common and the state was set up by Britain and France. They haven't the same nationalist bonds you and other Americans have. And they have no control over their state policies there; which is why Al-Jazeera is so feared (despite whatever crap FOXNews and the other American media outlets say, al-Jazeera is the bane of most Middle Eastern governments because they empower people with knowledge of things that are oft covered up.)


    I am sure you have a different perspective living in Australia. So spare me the insults, stay down under and eat your kangaroo.

    Touche' Ender_Sai, you Antipodean marsupial muncher, you!


    I thought we had more in common with Koalas, Uruk mate. A koala eats roots and leaves. So do Aussie men. [face_mischief]

    A joke which will be lost on most here, sadly... :D

    The Geneva treaties are codified into the UCMJ. A violation of one equates to a violation of the other.

    Of course, but I know the Third Geneva Convention better than the UCMJ... ;)

    E_S
  24. Darth Vince Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 16, 2000
    star 4
  25. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
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