US military in prisoner torture Photographs

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by MomentOfTriumph, Apr 30, 2004.

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  1. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5
  2. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    OWM posts articles, I post song lyrics...

    Why? Because I can.

    Hold on hold on soldier
    When you add it all up
    The tears and the marrowbone
    There's an ounce of gold
    And an ounce of pride in each ledger
    And the Germans killed the Jews
    And the Jews killed the Arabs
    And the Arabs killed the hostages
    And that is the news

    -Roger Waters



  3. Ardiff Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 18, 2001
    star 2
    I would say, that the killing of the hostages was not ignored. Even in my country - and here most people were against the war - both was not ignored. Not the killed Italien, not the killed american two days ago.

    I think, it is not so - or not only - anti-americanism, what makes, that the people look more to the prisoners abuse and so on.
    I think, we all - even the people who are against the war - know, that radical groups are cruel. There was no discussion about that. So it make no wonder, what crimes they do. Crimes, for what they were blamed even from war-critical groups.

    But the US went in the Iraq while saying, the will do all this for the iraqi people - so the shock is much greater. We has always know, what kind of people groups like the one are, who killed the american (near Al-Quaida or not).
    But a lot does not think, the US would do such things as they did (I does a bit, because I heard bad things earlier about Afghanistan, so it was more a suprise that people have their pleasure with THIS.).

    By the way - it is right that not every american soldier should be blame for what others done (but more then six, seven or ten, I think). But should every insurgent, or what american call so, (or, as some people sure will wish, every Iraqi people) be blamed for what some done? As it was done in Falluhja, were the complete town (more or less) pay for abuse of the dead bodies of the four mercenaries?
    I hope not.

    Some groups don't know mercy - other let hostages go. They are not all the same, I think (I know - taking hostages is wrong from the beginning on, but there is a different between the killing of hostages and "normal" guerilla-fight, who is at most against military targets).
    Yes, the guilty people should be punished (in a fair way). But this said not - and will never - that this is an excuse for what was done with other iraqis (and will perhaps be done in the future?)
    So far my point of view...
  4. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Hell, even Hezbollah condemns Berg's murder.

  5. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    "One of the few good things about modern times: If you die horribly on television, you will not have died in vain. You will have entertained us."

    --Kurt Vonnegut
  6. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Hey, I like song lyrics too. But here's another article. Seems like the brilliant Hunter S. Thompson was right, Rumsfeld and Cheney are the eggs laid by Nixon. But it seems like these men learned nothing from Nixon's tale, neither his good qualities nor his public humbling.

    America's military coup

    Donald Rumsfeld has a new war on his hands - the US officer corps has turned on the government

    Sidney Blumenthal
    Thursday May 13, 2004
    The Guardian

    Donald Rumsfeld, the US defence secretary, told George Bush in February about torture at Abu Ghraib prison. From the limited detail Rumsfeld recalled of that meeting, it can be deduced that Bush gave no orders, insisted on no responsibility, did not ask to see the already commissioned Taguba report. If there are exculpatory facts, Rumsfeld has failed to mention them.
    For decades, Rumsfeld has had a reputation as a great white shark of the bureaucratic seas: sleek, fast-moving and voracious. As counsellor to Richard Nixon during the impeachment crisis, his deputy was the young Dick Cheney, and together they helped to right the ship of state under Gerald Ford.

    Here they were given a misleading gloss as moderates; competence at handling power was confused with pragmatism. Cheney became the most hardline of congressmen, and Rumsfeld informed acquaintances that he was always more conservative than they imagined. One lesson they seem to have learned from the Nixon debacle was ruthlessness. His collapse confirmed in them a belief in the imperial presidency based on executive secrecy. One gets the impression that, unlike Nixon, they would have burned the White House tapes.

    Under Bush, the team of Cheney and Rumsfeld spread across the top rungs of government, drawing staff from the neoconservative cabal and infusing their rightwing temperaments with ideological imperatives. The unvarnished will to power took on a veneer of ideas and idealism. Iraq was not a case of vengeance or power, but the cause of democracy and human rights.

    The fate of the neoconservative project depends on Rumsfeld's job. If he were to go, so would his deputy, the neoconservative Robespierre, Paul Wolfowitz. Also threatened would be the cadres who stovepiped the disinformation that neoconservative darling Ahmed Chalabi used to manipulate public opinion before the war. In his Senate testimony last week, Rumsfeld explained that the government asking the press not to report Abu Ghraib "is not against our principles. It is not suppression of the news." War is peace.

    Six National Guard soldiers from a West Virginia unit who treated Abu Ghraib as a playpen of pornographic torture have been designated as scapegoats. Will the show trials of these working-class antiheroes put an end to any inquiries about the chain of command? In an extraordinary editorial, the Army Times, which had not previously ventured into such controversy, declared that "the folks in the Pentagon are talking about the wrong morons ... This was not just a failure of leadership at the local command level. This was a failure that ran straight to the top. Accountabilty here is essential - even if that means relieving leaders from duty in a time of war."

    William Odom, a retired general and former member of the National Security Council who is now at the Hudson Institute, a conservative thinktank, reflects a wide swath of opinion in the upper ranks of the military. "It was never in our interest to go into Iraq," he told me. It is a "diversion" from the war on terrorism; the rationale for the Iraq war (finding WMD) is "phoney"; the US army is overstretched and being driven "into the ground"; and the prospect of building a democracy is "zero". In Iraqi politics, he says, "legitimacy is going to be tied to expelling us. Wisdom in military affairs dictates withdrawal in this situation. We can't afford to fail, that's mindless. The issue is how we stop failing more. I am arguing a strategic decision."

    One high-level military strategist told me that Rumsfeld is "detested", and that "if there's a sentiment in the a
  7. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Hell, even Hezbollah condemns Berg's murder.

    Heh, that's sort of funny. Hezbollah is mainly still funded by Iran. Sort of sadly amusing to think that this would happen and the only major Arab country to actually condemn it might actualy be Iran.
  8. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Except that Iran isn't an Arab state.

    I know, before claims of "semantics" are thrown out, I completely understand your point, and I am not attempting to diminish your irony.

    However, it is an extremly important distinction to make, especially in the region.

    More importantly, it also underscores the thawing of the relationship that has been occuring between the US and Iran.
  9. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    Nick Kristof had a good editorial today about Iran.

    I'll go try and find it.

    *Edit*

    Actually, I found three great editorials (more like investigative reporting if you ask me, thats why I like Kristof so much) on Iran:

    Those Friendly Iranians

    Those Sexy Iranians

    Overdosing on Islam

    I recommend reading all three. They are easy to read and actually written from Iran.




  10. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Except that Iran isn't an Arab state.

    Ah yes, Persian, etc. etc. Whoops.

    Still, an ounce of goodwill there would mean a billion times more than an ounce of goodwill in Israel. Of course, an ounce of goodwill to Brazil would mean 50x more to the Arab powers than goodwill to Israel.
  11. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Wait wait, Iran isn't an Arab state? Huh? Which states ARE considered Arab?
  12. cheese_boy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 4
    What's with Rumsfeld's posturing to the troops? Has the man no frigging shame?

    And what's this rubbish about not releasing any more photos because it's prohibited under 'the Geneva Convention'? Yet another example of this administration picking and choosing what parts of international law should be obeyed and when.
  13. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Wait wait, Iran isn't an Arab state? Huh? Which states ARE considered Arab?

    Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Jordan, Lebanon, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Yemen, Sudan, Egypt, Algeria, Morocco, Libya, Tunisa, Palestine and Bahrain. However Iran has a small Arab minority living in Khuzistan.
  14. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    What's with Rumsfeld's posturing to the troops? Has the man no frigging shame?

    Look at the administration hes a part of then ask that question again
  15. Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Mar 19, 1999
    star 7
    After reading some of the news reports about CIA interrogation processes in the post 9/11 world, it seems clear to me that this is a simple story of how power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. After 9/11, it was decided at the highest levels of government that torture would be allowed to get vital information from Al Quaeda suspects. Obviously, the government refuses to call what was happening at Guantanemo and elsewhere to question Al Quaeda suspects torture, and certainly many people differ on whether torture ought to be permitted in a "ticking bomb" scenario or even more generally in the war against terror.

    But it's obvious that this attitude toward detention and interrogation was a kind of virus that was deliberately allowed to infect our occupation of Iraq. Because the Bush administration was so eager to tie the invasion of Iraq to the war against terror, they forgot that the Iraqi people weren't all terrorists. Once torture became permissible in one place and for one set of circumstances, it began to spread to other kinds of instances. The very fact that general Miller was allowed to influence the detention and interrogation process in Iraq is absolute proof of the corrupting influence of immoral acts.
  16. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
  17. cheese_boy Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 28, 2003
    star 4
    While he is in a spot of bother, some of the points raised in the response are interesting.
  18. ManoWan Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Sep 19, 2002
    star 4
    From the same Roger Waters album:

    The beauty of military life
    no questions only orders and flight


    Rumsfeld has doubts

    We might fail in Iraq, he admits

    Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld appears before Senate Appropriations Committee at hearing yesterday.

    WASHINGTON - For the first time in public, a somber Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld raised the possibility yesterday that the U.S. mission in Iraq could fail.

    Read full story here..

    What a damn waste. All of this death and hatred for what? Thanks George and Rummy!
  19. Obi-Wan McCartney Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 1999
    star 5
    Jabbo, I liked your post and am going to paste in the elections thread.
  20. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    After reading some of the news reports about CIA interrogation processes in the post 9/11 world, it seems clear to me that this is a simple story of how power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Have you "read some of the news reports about CIA interrogation processes" at any other point in history to compare?

    First off,

    1)what are you basing these claims off of, besidesyour own opinion, and

    2)How do these processes compare to the mandate the CIA has operated under since its creation in 1947?

    You see, you seem to be abandoning the complete process of reason, simply to support your own view of the subject.

    The CIA operates solely under the regualtion of the Congressional oversight committee, through the selections of the President.

    If, as you claim, Bush simply changed the rules for the agency after 9/11, it would be under the approval of Congress.

    The agency was organized this way so it has the most discretion of any governmental body, but still has some accountability.

    You can't change reality just to make a political point.

    If you think that the CIA has somehow been granted new "power mad" abilities, I suggest you research the history of the CIA.

    I'll even help you out, look up:

    the Congo
    Chile
    Cuba
    Dominican Republic
    Haiti
    Indonesia
    Honduras
    Vietnam
    Romania

    The above is probably an effective primer to develop a context for CIA operations.

    Now, the CIA has internal rules that it must operate under, as it doesn't have a blank check for torture.

    However, by definition, those limits are placed by Congress, as the CIA is not subject to the Geneva treaties, or the UCMJ like the military.

    It is like trying to armchair referee a football game, even if you have never played a game, been part of a team, or even read the rules.

    Sure, you can watch a single game on TV, and attempt to call plays, but they aren't going to represent football.

  21. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Wait wait, Iran isn't an Arab state? Huh? Which states ARE considered Arab?

    Just for general info, Iran is, yes, not an Arab state. The best way to view Arab states is to see where Arabic is most widespread (though there may be some countries that use it but are not Arab). Essentially the Arab states stretch from Morrocco all the way to, cooincidentally, Iraq.

    Iran is something of an anomoly: It is considered part of the Middle East, but it is mostly because of political events. Really its people are part of 'North Central' Asia, and the language is Persian. They have a lot of different customs and share a fair bit in common with the native Afghanis next door. Thier roots, if I'm not mistaken, are closer to Russians than Arabs.
  22. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    mr44: I think when referring to the 'power mad' capabilities, he's referring to the period between the Carter administration and 9/11, and the functionality the CIA had at that time. Were those examples you cited within that time frame?

    No really, I don't know if they were or not.
  23. obi_wanmeister Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 8, 2004
    star 1
    Does anyone have a link or know where to find the video of the monk who immolated himself (set himself on fire) during the vietnam war?

    I did not want to start a new thread for this, but I figured it fits in with controversial media and its affect on the public opinion on War.
  24. foofaspoon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 26, 1999
    star 2
    Well, Piers Morgan has gone.... Best bloody news all week IMO. It was about time he got his just desserts... Hoax photos

    Though investigations into the behaviour of some British soldiers goes on...

    four arrested
  25. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    mr44: I think when referring to the 'power mad' capabilities, he's referring to the period between the Carter administration and 9/11, and the functionality the CIA had at that time. Were those examples you cited within that time frame?

    Some were, some weren't..

    Carter on, huh?----->

    REAGAN:
    1982 El Salvador
    1983 Honduras
    1984 Nicaragua
    1986 Haiti (Duvalier)
    1989 Panama
    BUSH 1:
    1990 Haiti II (Aristide)
    1992 Iraq (but plans were never used)
    CLINTON:
    1992 Beijing
    1993 Haiti III (Cedras)
    1997 Beijing II (Win Ho Lee)

    The exact timeline isn't as important as the idea that the CIA has always acted like any other intelligence service, spanning multiple administrations.

    And I'd bet you could find a similiar list from a majority of the other nations on the planet. If you overlook the fact that everyone isn't as transparent..

    Even more importantly, I don't think outright torture was ever condoned in any intelligence operation.

    It's unrelialble up to a point, and contrary to the ideals of western world.

    That's all my point was, that you have to keep things in the proper prespective.







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