US military in prisoner torture Photographs

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by MomentOfTriumph, Apr 30, 2004.

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  1. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    Carter on, huh?----->

    Carter's administration supposedly changed how the CIA worked, using proxy services rather than diect agents.
  2. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Not exactly.

    After the "Shah fiasco," Carter tried to reform the CIA, and deactivated hundreds of field agents, which basically turned the agency into a Washington-based advisory group.

    However, he wasn't re-elected, so his full plans couldn't be put in place.

    While the exact budget of the CIA is classified, when Reagan took over, it was estimated to be 19 million (this was for 1979)

    After Reagan took office, the CIA's "open budget" was increased to 36 billion, which was of course, was almost double what it was under Carter.
  3. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Update:

    The first soldier connected to the prison pleaded guilty to 4 counts and was sentenced to the maximum penalty today.

    Jeremy Sivits was the soldier reponsible for taking most of the pictures, and will testify in the upcoming general courts martial.

    He was sentenced to:
    -1 year in military prison
    -bad conduct discharge
    -reduction in rank

    He had asked for leniency, but the judge rejected his claims.

    link





  4. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    While I don't want to defend anyone who had anything to do with the prison abuse, I can't help the feeling that he and a handful of others are being displayed to cover the true nature of what went on.

  5. dizfactor Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 12, 2002
    star 5
    While I don't want to defend anyone who had anything to do with the prison abuse, I can't help the feeling that he and a handful of others are being displayed to cover the true nature of what went on.

    that's what i think, too. the Administration will be quite happy to let a few enlisted-level rednecks from West Virginia burn if they think they can sell the voters on the idea that it was just an isolated incident. which they will be able to do, because the voters are pretty stupid.

    don't get me wrong, i think they're scumbags, but they're more the symptom than they are the disease.
  6. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    But you also have to keep those concerns rooted into what we know, and not simply based on what one might want it to be.
  7. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    I think ObiWan McCartney posted this in another thread, but it belongs here as well:

    ?Definitely a Cover-Up?:


    Dozens of soldiers ? other than the seven military police reservists who have been charged ? were involved in the abuse at Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, and there is an effort under way in the Army to hide it, a key witness in the investigation told ABCNEWS.

    "There's definitely a cover-up," the witness, Sgt. Samuel Provance, said. "People are either telling themselves or being told to be quiet."

    Provance, 30, was part of the 302nd Military Intelligence Battalion stationed at Abu Ghraib last September. He spoke to ABCNEWS despite orders from his commanders not to...

    Provance, now stationed in Germany, ran the top secret computer network used by military intelligence at the prison.

    He said that while he did not see the actual abuse take place, the interrogators with whom he worked freely admitted they directed the MPs' rough treatment of prisoners.

    "Anything [the MPs] were to do legally or otherwise, they were to take those commands from the interrogators," he said.

    Top military officials have claimed the abuse seen in the photos at Abu Ghraib was limited to a few MPs, but Provance says the sexual humiliation of prisoners began as a technique ordered by the interrogators from military intelligence.

    "One interrogator told me about how commonly the detainees were stripped naked, and in some occasions, wearing women's underwear," Provance said. "If it's your job to strip people naked, yell at them, scream at them, humiliate them, it's not going to be too hard to move from that to another level."



  8. Branthoris Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2002
    star 3
    Does this year mean one year, or is there a parole system?

    An actual year of incarceration for taking the pictures would seem to be a proportionate punishment.
  9. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Precisely what I am refering to though...

    He said that while he did not see the actual abuse take place, the interrogators with whom he worked freely admitted they directed the MPs' rough treatment of prisoners.

    So basically, a soldier is saying, while he can't confirm it for himself, he "heard" from his co-workers....

    And this is "definately proof" of what?

    JF, two offical investigations have concluded, one is still ongoing, but wrapping up..

    The most comprehensive report, conducted by Gen. Taguba, contains the observations that could be supported and is the basis for the Congressional hearings.

    Of course, the excerpt has been linked before, but here it is again.

    HERE

    As always, the investigation is ongoing, and all the claims, unsupported as well as verifiable will be sifted through...


  10. Jediflyer Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 5, 2001
    star 5
    And this is definitive proof of what?

    Its definitive proof of nothing. However, it is an indication that we are being lied to by the Defense Department and the administration when they claim that this is a horrible, isolated incident.

    For more on the new developments in this story, Kevin Drum has more.

    I am no longer going to take the word of Administration at face value. I have learned from my mistakes.

  11. Cailinn-Sarr Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 23, 2001
    star 3
    Having served 8yrs in the Army I tend to also think they are being put out there to cover/take the heat for others,possibly the officers in charge.I just find it not possible that that could go on with out the officers knowing about it,& by not doing anything about they might as well order it done.Same thing.
  12. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    So basically, a soldier is saying, while he can't confirm it for himself, he "heard" from his co-workers....

    And this is definitive proof of what?


    It's not difinitive proof mr4 but it does corroborate other items of evidence like the photo where one of the accused idetified several MI interrigators.
  13. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    JF, those are all links to the same stories...

    I question the obvious double standard.

    So, if an unamed journalist makes a claim, he is to be taken at face value, but the denials over said claim are to be treated with obvious skepticism?

    If I accused someone of abuse, would my claims be more highly regarded than the denials of the accused?

    Or would be be prudent to see what can be supported, on either side, through the facts?

    EDIT: Gonk- It's not difinitive proof mr4 but it does corroborate other items of evidence like the photo where one of the accused idetified several MI interrigators.

    Yes, and I agree with you here, Gonk..

    However, as I pointed out, you just described the nature of the very process..

    Because Army CID is not CBS news..

    When CID interviewed that soldier in the article, he would have given their names and positions, not simply "unamed co-workers.."

    As part of the follow up, they are going to go interview those specific people and then find out what adds up..

    Maybe his friends were just bragging at the time, or trying to cover their own actions, or maybe the allegation is true...

    You certainly can't come to any conclusion based on that one article.
  14. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    I apologize for the back to back posts, but here are two articles that perfectly illustrate the dangers of simply jumping from story to story, depending on one's own view, rather than waiting for the facts..

    Both articles deal with Pfc England's statements, and how they changed over time..

    The first article details a statement she made on May 5..

    1st Account

    In a sworn statement to investigators, Pfc. Lynndie England explained the mystery of why soldiers at Abu Ghraib took pictures of detainees masturbating and piled naked with plastic sandbags over their heads by saying, "We thought it looked funny, so pictures were taken."

    "Picture 000015 was basically us fooling around," she said


    Now, here, England explains that for the most part, while she said they were following orders, the abuse was a result of their own decision...

    However, 7 days later, as reported by CNN, England has changed her story..

    Account 2

    Pfc. Lynndie England told KCNC-TV in Denver on Tuesday that her superiors gave her specific instructions on how to pose for the photos. Asked who gave the orders, she would say only, "Persons in my chain of command."

    These two statements, made by the same person, who is involved in the allegations, directly contradict each other.

    Either the photos were made by a group "fooling around," or they were made under specific guidelines..

    Obviously, without supporting evidence, we don't know which statement is the truthful one, until they can be verified either way.

    However, if someone were to simply pick the statement that they aggreed with, they may, or may not have the true picture..

    That's why the actual investigation is so important..




  15. Gonk Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 6
    I apologize for the back to back posts

    Booooooooo! ;)

    Edit: mr44, it is said in that first link at the end that England says throughout the statement the guards were ordered to do the things they did. The case may well be that they were simply not ordered to take photos or one or two of the incidents -- in this case the one where the detainess were piled into the human pyramid -- were not ordered. At least not specifically. But other, harsher things may have been.
  16. MaceWinducannotdie Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 31, 2001
    star 4
    -bad conduct discharge
    -reduction in rank


    What's even the point of demotion if he's getting kicked out anyway? Make sure he leaves as the lowest of the low? And does a bad conduct discharge differ froma dishonorable discharge?
  17. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    bad conduct is a step above dishonorable.

    It goes:

    1)Honorable
    2)General
    3)Less-than-honorable
    4)Bad conduct
    5)Dishonorable

    And regarding the reduction in rank, it depends on the type of crime..

    See, unlike civilian prisons, military prisoners can be held in either a pay, or non-pay status.

    For example, going AWOL for less than 30 days may have you confined for 90 days.

    However, you would still earn pay, benefits etc..while you are confined.

    So as part of the sentence, anyone E4 or below, could be reduced in rank, so you only earn the minimum amount of pay.

    I honestly don't know if he is sentenced in a pay or non-pay status, but it would be pretty standard.
  18. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5

    Well, the first guy gets 1 year.

    "It's a kangaroo court, set up just to placate Iraqis," said Hala Azzawi, mother of one of some 3,000 Iraqis held at the jail near Baghdad, notorious as Saddam Hussein's torture centre.

    "I wish they would get death, it's less than they deserve."


    From smh.com.au

    Two things:

    1. It seems to me the Iraqi people aren't going to think 1 year imprisonment is justice for what's happened.

    2. Kangaroos get a bad name when it comes to court situations.



  19. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    "It's a kangaroo court, set up just to placate Iraqis," said Hala Azzawi, mother of one of some 3,000 Iraqis held at the jail near Baghdad, notorious as Saddam Hussein's torture centre.


    I read that as: "It's a kangaroo court, set up just to placate Iraqis," said Hala Azzawi, mother of some 3,000 Iraqis...

    :D

    Anyways, I think you're right on both counts there, Uruk. Kangaroos aren't treated fairly when it comes to courtrooms. And as for the one year; he gets a Special Courts Martial, which, IIRC, gives a maximum one year sentence. This is only for Sivits, the guy who took the photos. All the others get a General Courts Martial, which can have unlimited sentencing powers.

    I may have gotten General and Special mixed up, but I am confident that my comrade-in-alms, Mr44, will have not only the correct answer, but a satisfying eulogy for the woebegone 'Roo.

    E_S
  20. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    I may have gotten General and Special mixed up

    Nope, you are correct.

    Again, the authority for the varying types are set by Congress, and through the UCMJ.

    Sivits could only be tried by the authority that his offenses qualified under. You just couldn't inflate his punishment due to public pressure.

    The remaining group, however, being charged with more serious offenses, can be subject all the way up to the death penalty (although I doubt that would happen here.)

    And by the way, kangaroos have to take some of the blame for their perception..

    What, with them acting smug all the time, and wanting to go around boxing everyone.

    I think the only being that fights more than kangaroos is the dreaded Russelis Croweitus...
  21. Branthoris Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 12, 2002
    star 3
    This wasn't a sentence for "what happened". It's a sentence for what was charged, namely taking the photos.

    Each soldier must be sentenced with respect to his/her individual role. Very long sentences might well be warranted in some of the cases (I would personally give 30 years and upwards for taking a commanding role in what occurred), but for merely taking the pictures a year of incarceration would seem to be proportionate.

    Can someone answer my question about parole? I know there is now no parole in the US federal justice system, but what about the UCMJ?
  22. DarthArsenal6 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 16, 2001
    star 5
    Anyways, I think you're right on both counts there, Uruk. Kangaroos aren't treated fairly when it comes to courtrooms.

    WHA......A KANGROO COURT IN IRAQ !

    Ender_sai Why have you shipped a whole load Kangroos into Iraq ?

    Now the coalistion forces are gonna wonder... Large mice due to radioactive contamination !


    WMD exists !
  23. Uruk-hai Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Oct 26, 2000
    star 5

    Anyone see the new pic with a different female specialist giving the thumbs up over the body of an Iraqi that "died" (read - was killed) during interrogations?

    It just keeps going on and on.


    Mr44, the thing about Russelis Croweus is he never fights without his Femalus Trainaris to help him when he starts losing.
  24. Mr44 VIP

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 6
    Uruk, that female is Spc Harman.

    She was one of those who was originally charged back in March after the investigation was completed.

    Remember, all things considered, 17 people from the unit were given various punishments before this story even hit, as a result of the Army's investigation.

    7 (well, now 6 since Sivits pleaded)of those people are still in the middle of the process.


    BTW, I agree, the dreaded Russelius Croweitus does travel in packs...
  25. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 8
    And by the way, kangaroos have to take some of the blame for their perception..



    OI! You were asked to defend the bloody Kangaroo, not castigate it! [face_shame_on_you]

    E_S
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