US military in prisoner torture Photographs

As I said, I'm not going to defend against human rights abuses in Australia, but I'm pretty sure those accusations from 2002 etc were proven false. I don't care if they were Australians or from Swaziland, the accusations were false as far as I remember.


The photographic evidence in Iraq is pretty solid, Mr 44.

You don't understand what I'm saying here. I agree with you wholeheartedly that this is most probably an isolated incident with a few bad apples abusing the prisoners. What I am saying as well is that a few bad apples spoils the whole bunch as the saying goes. There will be a perception amoungst the wider community that the US is doing some wrong over there too. All spin aside, it's very bad PR.

I'm not saying all US soldiers are like this, I'm saying it looks incredibly bad for an invading force whose agenda is to rid Iraq of incidents like this to be doing this type of thing at all, period.

It looks bad.

 

I'm not denying that, or trying to diminish the importance of that perception.

However, you have to realize the nature of that double edged sword.

I don't know how familiar people are of a movie called Black Rain, which starred Michael Douglas as a NY cop in Japan.

Anyway, to stay on topic, it had a specific scene in the movie after Douglas's character lost a Japanese suspect he was chasing through an airport.

In the scene, ordinary Japanese were laughing and pointing at his character when he was in public.

He inquired, and it was explained to him that he was known as "the American who wasn't perfect, because he actually lost a criminal."

It was telling because of that standard.

The Japnese expected their police to fail to catch criminals, but when it happened to an American, the ordinary Japanese wasn't prepared for it.

Somehow, America is not simply viewed as human.

Even in your posts, you can't bring yourself to type that this is an isolated incident, only saying "probably," in regards to the US.

Do you believe that the entire ADF is composed of widespread abusers, or are you simply justifying your own piece of mind about ADF allegations, a belief system you cannot apply to the US?

 

The US isn't seen as more or less than human in the eyes of the rest of the world. On the contrary, the US is seen as very human, fallible like the rest of us.

It's the US that likes to bignote itself about freedom and democracy, and tell others how to live their lives, so when something like this happens it gets blown out of proportion. There's a saying about people in glass houses not throwing stones. I know that not all US troops are like this, but when it does occur, it makes a mockery of the whole situation.


Ok, remember I'm not making excuses, but you keep asking. You have to look at the alleged abuse by the ADF against illegal immigrants differently to this issue. The ADF abuse was alleged by immigrants who want to stay in Australia but were being forcebly removed, and it helps the illegal immigrant's cause to allege mistreatment. The allegations were picked up by all manner of interest groups and they ran with it in an effort to get the result they wanted. This means that the allegations may be true and they may be false. It was investigated as far as I remember and found to be false. I'm not saying there isn't an element of troublemakers in the ADF though. This may well be the case.

The mistreatment of prisoners in Iraq by US troops is different for a couple of reasons. Firstly the abuse is caught on film. Can't really deny it happened, there's no grey area of allegation, it's there for all to see. Secondly the complaint was put forward by a member of the US army. There's no special interest group claiming this abuse, it's claimed by military personnel.

In the end, it doesn't matter if the ADF abused illegal immigrants or not. That is not the issue here. The issue to me is how the rest of the world sees the Iraqi situation.

 

Well, I can respect that as an honest assessment.

This is more of the idea I had in mind when I provided the ADF examples.

Because, honestly, I don't see much difference in the nature of the behavior, even if the examples aren't exactly the same.

Because any individual can act without thinking, be it American, British, Australian, or Iraqi.

This emotionalism is only expounded on by the mob mentality.

An average person doesn't go around normally stacking up naked people, or abusing refugees.

But when a certain sub-group starts to dehumanize their focus, it becomes a cathartic release, rather than an improper act, in their eyes.

I think we all realize this, but that is precisely why we should all strive to keep the focus on the actual behavior, and not make wider judgements.

 

Good luck in convincing the Arab world of that, Mr44.

 

I know what you are saying Mr44 and it's a shame that in many peoples eyes, the entire coalition will be tarred with the same brush as the perpetrators of this act.

To quote Margo Kingston from SMH:

All the reasons they told us to go to war have fallen apart except the one about giving the Iraqi people freedom and dignity. Now that one is in ruins.

Unfortunately that's what a handful of idiots have done.

 

Has this reporter offered any sort of solid evidence?

Actually he said that he had photos of the body when he was on CNN, JFT. He hasn't released his information as of yet because he's doing more fact-checking. However I assume he must be close to done if he's going and saying it on national television. Plus I think the report he referenced that he was provided a copy of, but wa snot yet made public possibly documents that incident.

 

You make a good point, Mr44, but it does not contradict the fact that an investigation needs to be made to make sure this problem is not systemic throughout the military.

Well, JF, I think that the fact there was 3 investigations stretching back months at the prison indicates two things:

1) The very top authorities in Iraq KNEW about what was going on in that prison and as such the very top authorities are responsible for what went on there

2) The very top authorities behind closed doors have NOT condoned and TRIED TO STOP what was going on in the prison, but did not try hard enough

So I don't think the top administration officials in Iraq are in the wrong or in violations of the conventions themselves, but they have subordinates somewhere down there that very well may be, subordinates much higher than those guards at the prison.

 

Just like the actions of a few Americans shouldn't be the standard that all are judged, nor should it be extrapolated into anything else but what it is.

Tell that to the guys who curse every Muslim as scum...in fact, tell that to Mr. President...

*Tongue pokes through cheek*

 

Anyway,

Gonk, I think there should be some clarifications over Hersh's allegations.

1) The "3" investigations stretching back to this prison are all connected to the same case.

Hersh gives the impression that they were 3 seperate undertakings, when they all are related to the same incidents that happened back in Nov/Dec.

Let me provide an example. Let's say there is a murder, and a detective responds to the scene.

If he goes back 2 days later to review the evidence, it is not "2 investigations," it is a follow-up to the same case.

It may seem like semantics, but an important distinction.

2) Regarding the picture. The fact is that Hersh currently does not have any evidence that ties his claim to any particular group.

He is assuming a conclusion that he wants to promote.

I'm not saying that Seymour Hersh is inccorect, but it would seem to me, that as a journalist, he would wait until all the evidence is collected before reaching a conclusion.

but they have subordinates somewhere down there that very well may be, subordinates much higher than those guards at the prison.

Of course, this would fall to Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinsky, as commander of the facility. She has already been relieved of command.

 

1) The "3" investigations stretching back to this prison are all connected to the same case.

Hersh gives the impression that they were 3 seperate undertakings, when they all are related to the same incidents that happened back in Nov/Dec.

Let me provide an example. Let's say there is a murder, and a detective responds to the scene.

If he goes back 2 days later to review the evidence, it is not "2 investigations," it is a follow-up to the same case.

It may seem like semantics, but an important distinction.

No, it's not semantics, but it doesn't necessarily say anything good, it might in fact imply something worse. If Mr. Hersh is correct about there being multiple incidents at the prison, about the dog attacks, the flourescent light incident and the body thing I just described, then if they were only doing these investigations over one incident and not to encompass the entire prison, there SHOULD have been more investigations.

If the investigations, however, were meant to cover a large range of incidents, then it really is a completely semantic difference because it would not be 'same case' but 'same cases'.


2) Regarding the picture. The fact is that Hersh currently does not have any evidence that ties his claim to any particular group.

He is assuming a conclusion that he wants to promote.

I'm not saying that Seymour Hersh is inccorect, but it would seem to me, that as a journalist, he would wait until all the evidence is collected before reaching a conclusion.

He does have the evidence that it occurred, though. If you're saying he has no evidence that ties military intelligence to the incidents, well I suppose you'd be correct. But then the difficulty in getting such classified material would be incredibly difficult and nobody would want that released. But it's not like his inferrences are meaningless either: he says that the incidents were orchestrated to incite shame and were chosen specifically to play on Arab culture. Is he so out there to think that the soldiers themselves might not have had the ideas for these incidents and it might have come from suggestions of higher authority?


but they have subordinates somewhere down there that very well may be, subordinates much higher than those guards at the prison.

Of course, this would fall to Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinsky, as commander of the facility. She has already been relieved of command.

Not those within the prison, I was referring to military intelligence.

 

And I'm not disagreeing with you..

All I am saying is that it probably would have been best for him to wait until such allegations could be confirmed, you know, like respected journalists do.

This idea that wild, outlandish allegations can be made, by the mainstream media on both sides is quite troubling.

In other words, attention grabbing claims are made on day one, retractions containing the real story are then made on day 5..

Because here is another follow-up account of the investigation that I posted yesterday.

HERE

It even mentions Hersh's New Yoker article, but the claims all stem from the same group.

 

I think of "wild, outlandish" accusations to be the sort spouted by conspiracy theorists and Dennis Kucinich. I think, or rather suspect, that Mr. Hersh has evidence to make his hypotheses seem likely.

Understand that while I believe it likely that Mr. Hersh's accusations may be true, this does not mean the top generals in Iraq are to BLAME for what happened, merely that they are responsible because that is what comes with thier positions. Also, if his allegations are correct it also does not mean the regular military is to blame or in this case, even responsible for what happened. The people to blame would be somewhere in the military intelligence branch, and in the contracting mercenary 'security' firms. The regular military is only affected through those isolated cases shown in the photographs. I don't think Mr. Hersh is saying that even a large portion of the occupation force is disreputable.

 

No matter how bad this might be on an american homefront, the effect of these pictures is a hundred times worse in Arabic countries.

The acts that the prisoners were forced to do are in the eyes of the arabic people so dispicable, that there is nothing the American goverment can ever do that will make up for this.

Think about, in some places if a girl is just seen with a man, her father or brothers kill her. Think what the utter humiliation of a man will do to a clan.

 

Interesting statements.

I tell you what, let's compare the scope of these observations:

Every person in Denmark talks to the ghost of their father because their mothers ended up killing them.

Of course, all citizens of Denmark also break into graveyards and start talking to skulls, while they throw parties where everyone sits around and drinks poison.

Oh wait, those are generalizations I got from simply reading Hamlet, not by actually interacting with anyone from Copenhagen.

Color me Shakespearian blue..

 

Mr44, you are analyzing this situation from the point of view that everyone will have rational views on this issue. We are analyzing this situation from the point of view that the world, especially the Arab world, is not rational.

 

No, I'm merely questioning the wisdom of stereotyping an entire subgroup of people using outside criteria.

Are people in the Middle East going to be shocked at such photographs? Sure..There are people in America who are shocked at the very same. As they should.

However, people in the ME are just as capable of engaging in both rational and irrational thought as any other group of people.

That is the difference.

 

That's a completely illogical point of view to take though; you know as well as I do that things like this are taken 'rationally' by an /extremely/ tiny minority of people.

I'd imagine a majority would want their pound of flesh from this just because I know here in Britain at least, a majority would want exactly the same.

 

So, I can assume that you characterize the allegations against a few Royal Marines as being representive of all of the UK?

Or are you capable of realizing what individual action represents?

Why stop there?

I guess if I watch Mr Bean, I should conclude that he represents how all Londoners act..

Or if I watch a John Wayne movie, I can expect to still see cowboys walking down the streets of LA..

Funny how all of the Australians I talk with don't all act like Crocadile Dundee.

But for some reason, even among educated westerners, it is easy to stereotype the Middle East as a region of nomads and passionate savages.

To somehow come to the conclusion that the entire Middle East "will never be able to forgive the US" for actions committed by a few Americans, is to completely mischaracterize the Arab world.

This is not the same as claiming that no one will be angered by such a revelation, but believe it or not, the 21st century has touched the Middle East.

 

Rationality increses when distance from an atrocity increases.

That is why I believe Arabs won't be rational in this case.

 

No, I'm not saying that at all.

The biggest selling newspaper in the UK is The Sun. When there were allegations of torture committed by Iraqis againsts Brits, they were /all over/ the front pages in big black type. Keywords like EVIL TORTURE RAPE MURDER appear in bold capitals.

You and I and others may see these things from a rational point of view and shrug them off, and find the /real story/ and draw a reasonable conclusion. The majority simple don't. I mean, look at the reactions to American Arabs after 9/11. Distrust of /all/ American Arabs was huge - and similar things happen in Britain all the time (our current hate is 'asylum seekers' without any understanding of them)

I'm not accusing the entire Middle East of being totally backward in their views, I'm just saying that it's unrealistic to expect a majority of people in the Middle East to see this as anything but a horrific insult.

 

Mr44, a little info for you, I'm Arabic, from Marocco, living in Denmark and I know what, from talking to people that I know in Marocco, Palestine, Jordan, how they see the sitiuation, and I know what I feel.

Lets not get in to honor killings but I have helped a girl escape a father that wanted her dead, she is currently living in Germany in hiding in fear of her family, the reason: She fell in love with a danish boy, so I know a thing or two about the issue.

 

Mr44: I think we all realize this, but that is precisely why we should all strive to keep the focus on the actual behavior, and not make wider judgements.

Wider judgements...such as holding the commander in chief responsible? how about the Defense Secretary, or even L. Paul Bremer? Are these the "wider" judgements you are talking about?

The folks who are attacking "Coalition" forces daily are not checking names to see if they are the ones responsible for the torture. It seems they would kill or kidnap any American, soldier (corporate or no), mercenary, or media.

What I am getting at is that we, as Americans, that is, are all responsible for this. Remember, UNITED WE STAND! If this mantra of US patriotism is sincere, then I must assert that we are all responsible.

)When this whole she-bang began I just wanted to say, "united YOU stand...I'll be right over here until you come back to humanity."(

However, people in the ME are just as capable of engaging in both rational and irrational thought as any other group of people.

But remember, they DO hate our way of life, right?

 

JediStryker:
Let's be fair; you could add that sentiment to every single country in the world's coda.

I know. I was being facetious. But I did want to emphasize that the idea that the USA and those who represent it are ALWAYS infallibly honorable and righteous is a total myth. The United States is a great country that I love deeply. But, it's done a lot of deplorable things, as have some of its errant countrymen.

I agree that we cannot, however, let the actions of a few characterize the whole.

It's a sick and terrible thing that happened, but let's not let it be taken out of proportion. The fact that this is a shock to most of the military just goes to show that this is way left of the norm.

Way left of the norm? Is that subliminal message?

 

Well Mulacki,

I never said that you or those people who you know were incorrect in their opinion, or that it was somehow invalid.

How about you simply quantify your statement to make it more reasonable?

Because I can assure you, the Arab-Americans I know are quite capable of understanding the concept of limited responsibility.

The Egyptian professor who I have known since 1996 would consider you crazy if you asked him if he believed in honor killings.

Another mentor of mine, Dr. Daher, who was a young boy in Palestine when it was broken up, certainly doesn't hold a life long grudge over the actions of any individuals.

I am willing to accept Morocco's Berber ancestry and nomadic cultural ties, but you can't paint the entire ME with a Moroccan brush.

That's what I'm illustrating.

In fact, if you want to get really technical, Morocco wasn't even a part of Mahan's original Western definition of the Middle East.

That isn't meant to diminsh Morocco's standing in any way, but Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Libya and Sudan all share more idealogical ties with the Middle East, rather than direct cultural ties.

To make the assumption that all Arabs believe the same way would be like visiting California, speaking with the first person you see, and then concluding that the rest of the US is represented by the West Coast.