USA vs. IRAQ: part III (Official Iraq thread)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Cheveyo, Feb 5, 2003.

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  1. MRHA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 2
    The count of veto utilisation in the past: (as far as I remember)

    France: 18 (last in 1989)
    UK: 32
    US: 72

    uhuh :p

  2. Madriver Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2003
    star 3
    The USA attack Iraq, destroy the whole infrastructure, kill some 100.000 Iraqis and all that without UN permission.

    That's all speculation. :)
  3. Darth Mischievous Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 12, 1999
    star 6
    Give us a break with the inaccurate rhetoric, SnorreSturluson. [face_plain]
  4. Madriver Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2003
    star 3
    The TImes-thing is a fake. Murdoch owns The Times and he wants that war.

    Does CNN count?

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- With a crucial vote expected Wednesday on a proposed United Nations deadline for Iraq to disarm or face war, the United States worked Monday to draw attention to what it called more evidence that Iraq is not disarming.

    U.S. officials focused on details contained in Friday's U.N. weapons inspector's report about a drone aircraft and a videotape that is said to show the testing of a bomb that spreads chemical weapons over a wide area.

    U.N. weapons inspector Hans Blix failed to mention the drone and the video during an oral summary of the report to the U.N. Security Council on Friday.


  5. sleazo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 13, 2001
    star 4
    Comparisons of US war propaganda to that under Soviet rule, from the Prague Post
    http://www.praguepost.com/P03/2003/Art/0305/opin1.php
    The wizards of spin

    Propaganda masters fan out through Europe to promote support of war


    "Hey! Isn't this the studio where they shot the moon landings?"

    "And action!"
    By Arie Farnam
    The Prague Post
    (March 5, 2003)


    The Iraqi National Congress (INC), an exile group that the Bush administration has groomed to lead Iraq after the removal of Saddam Hussein, met with American oil companies in closed-door negotiations last fall. According to London's Observer and The New York Times, after the conference INC leader Ahmed Chalabi said he would reward American oil companies with oil contracts if the United States ousts Hussein and puts the INC in power as promised.

    Chalabi's statements form a key part of the theory that the planned war against Iraq is primarily about oil interests. But the INC is no more sinister than any other political party. Its leaders want power and are willing to sell their future decisions to business interests to get it. This is nothing new in Western democracies.

    The trouble is that the INC, at the behest of U.S. intelligence, also has sent out advisers across Europe. Senior UPI correspondent Sam Vaknin calls them "the charm offensive to drum up support for the forthcoming invasion."

    There is at least one Iraqi adviser, by the name of Majid Majed, now attached to Czech Vice Premier Petr Mares. Majed spends a good deal of his time talking to the Czech press, persuading the country and its politicians that a war against Iraq would really be a liberation. Journalists who have visited Iraq recently say that Majed exaggerates tales of oppression in Iraq to gain support. He also claims close ties with the INC leadership.

    Whether he knows it or not, Majed is being used in an intensive propaganda campaign to promote a war that, according to a UN report, is likely to cause the eventual deaths of more than a million children.

    Remember the first U.S. war with Iraq in 1991? The case for that conflict was made with similar tactics. A young woman, who claimed to have been a volunteer at a Kuwaiti hospital when Iraqi troops invaded, was interviewed by major network TV. She told how Iraqi soldiers took babies out of incubators and put them on the cold floor. She cried and whipped up a frenzy of sympathy. And then, after the war, it was discovered that she was the daughter of a Kuwaiti diplomat and she had not even been in Kuwait at the time, let alone volunteering in a hospital. The story was quickly buried and quickly forgotten, along with the satellite images the U.S. military doctored to show hundreds of thousands of nonexistent Iraqi troops massed on the Saudi border.

    Another woman appeared on the BBC telling how her husband disappeared and her family was imprisoned by Hussein's lackeys. Her stories are probably true, but they happened in the 1980s when the United States fully backed Hussein. Now they are used to fuel a U.S. war that will bring her people even more unimagined horrors.

    What we know today is that Hussein's regime is a brutal dictatorship, like several others around the world. We know that Iraq has breached 12 UN resolutions and Israel has breached 68. We also know that a devastating bombing campaign already brought death and pain to the Iraqi population 12 years ago, without ridding it of its dictator. We know that the replacement of one dictator with an unelected and corrupt political party backed by a foreign invasion will bring little relief to the people.

    Another devastating war in the Middle East will not bring greater stability and democracy, as the wizards of spin tell us. Each new war feeds the fires of religious extremism and wins further grief-stricken martyrs willing to blow themselves up in terrorist attacks against Westerners.

    The Pentagon's plans call for a massive bombing campaign that will shatter Iraq "physically, emotionally and psychologically." Eight hundred cruise missiles are to be fired
  6. Jedi_Xen Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Heres the report on the drone Hans Blix failed to mention, but did include in his report. Mr Blix is trying to play to both sides I think.

    Drone
  7. MRHA Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Aug 23, 2000
    star 2
    Well, we know that a US dept last year has infiltrated AFP and Reuters with false informations for porpaganda.
    Rumsfeld has closed it after congress investigations, but had oppened a news one a few time after that...
  8. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    Okay let me repeat it.
    The USA attack Iraq, destroy the whole infrastructure, kill some 100.000 Iraqis and all that without UN permission.
    And they have to pay for that with their own oil they sell at a low price to the USA?
    That´s mafia business.



    Really? Wow...I want whatever crystal ball you're using. I mean, the war hasn't even begun here yet. Where have you come from future person?


    To note, I'm anti-war, I probably should've defined this better than I have, because some comments may seem like I support this war. I'm anti-war, I am also anti-BS. So whenever I see BS on the anti-war or pro-war debate, I will call the person on it, in my own fashion of course.
  9. KaineDamo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Mar 6, 2002
    star 5
    Another one of those "worst case" scenarios, methinks.
  10. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    I don't believe in planning out scenarios. The only time those come in handy is when you're in the military or up for a promotion or something. I've had bad experiences planning things out, being for the here and now is more effective than trying to change future events. In fact, you can change the future by focusing on the present.
  11. DarthYama Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 16, 2001
    star 4
    Why don't we just bomb France?

    (Note. To go through with the above idea would require the IQ of a banana peel)
  12. Darth Geist Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 23, 1999
    star 5
    "I don't believe in planning out scenarios."

    "Failing to plan is planning to fail," they say.
  13. tenorjedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 17, 2000
    star 5
    They also say:
    "battle plans are the war's first casulty"
    and
    "no plan survives contact with the enemy"

    The point is you can estimate cost and lives all you want, but it's still guessing.
  14. Fire_Ice_Death Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    tenor knew what I was getting at. Good thing someone did.
  15. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    Okay, so now France and Russia have both stated clearly that they will veto.

    France, Russia vow to veto resolution

    Okay, I was wrong earlier. I anticipated the Russians were bluffing, but the French just aren't that canny. It looks like the resolution will fail with two vetoes.

    Now the race is on. If the US-UK can win nine or more votes, then it makes the vetoes seem obstructive. If France can reel in nine+ votes, then the veto will seem legitimate (never mind that it is anyway).

    Ready? Set? ...


    I want to know the thinking behind the March 17th date. It's curious that the date is so unambiguous, so specific. Why not just say "a week after this resolution is ratified", or whatever? Is there any significance to the fact that the 18th is a full moon? Rotten luck, or by design?

    Hmmm...
  16. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    You know what, if the resolution is vetoed, who cares. We're going to go to war, and Chirac will be seen a weak and stupid. He'll be seen as an apologizer, and someone who's willing to allow mass murder.

    Either way, the U.S. and our allies win, and France loses...again.
  17. TOUCHPUMP Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2002
    star 1
    Actually Starfire the advantage would be to start around a new moon. The US has a clear advantage in a night battlefield. I think they will wait until after the 22 of March to be farther away from a full moon. The moon also rises later at night as you move closer to a new moon.
  18. Luukeskywalker Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jun 23, 1999
    star 5
    I hope this is the correct thread to ask such a request.

    But on another message board, I am in a heated debate about the United State's military strategy in Iraq. The guys I am arguing against claim that the US plans to fire all of its missles right at Baghdad hence purposely killing many innocent Iraqis. I know this is not the case, as we are only gonna fire our missles at specific military and government targets there.

    Can anyone provide me with any kind of a link that will back up my argument? Where can I find this? Thanks.
  19. StarFire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2001
    star 4
    Anybody who claims that the United States is purposefully going to slaughter Iraqi civilians isn't worth the time of day. I suggest you laugh at them.

    EDIT: That said, I'll post a link if I come across one :p
  20. Valkor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 11, 2002
    star 4
    "You know what, if the resolution is vetoed, who cares."

    I'll tell you who cares. Just the MILLIONS of people opposed to War in Iraq. At least France and Russia have the guts to stand up for what they believe. War is not the answer.

    Non Violence will prevail. Give peace a chance. Geez.

    allyouneedislove

    .v.
  21. AdmiralOzzal Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 12, 2002
    star 1
    But on another message board, I am in a heated debate about the United State's military strategy in Iraq. The guys I am arguing against claim that the US plans to fire all of its missles right at Baghdad hence purposely killing many innocent Iraqis. I know this is not the case, as we are only gonna fire our missles at specific military and government targets there. (LuukeSkywalker)

    Probably the best way to deal with this is just to wait to see if it does happen or doesn't happen, since it is very hard to prove something that hasn't happen yet

    (and anyway, even if the US military says that they won't do it would your friend believe it)

    having said that, much like Star Fire, I'll PM if I run across anything . . .


  22. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    Use logic? If the intent is to destroy baghdad, why not just use a nuke or 10?
  23. darthmalt16 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2000
    star 4
    "Beowulf. your talking as though Chirac has some sorta secret connection or deal with Saddam."

    The two other big countries opposed to the war are Russia and China. Iraq still owes Russia a LOT of money. And China has a lot of lucrative oil deals with Iraq and is suspected of having secret deals with Iraq.


    As for the bombing civillians why do you think we've spent millions of dollars making smart weapons? Accuracy. so why would we waste our extremely expensive weapons in an effort that would only make the civilains we want to liberate mad at us.



    Just remember people

    Violence never solved anything! (except facism, the spread of communism, slavery, and American Independance.)
  24. Jansons_Funny_Twin Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 31, 2002
    star 6
    I'll tell you who cares. Just the MILLIONS of people opposed to War in Iraq. At least France and Russia have the guts to stand up for what they believe. War is not the answer.

    And I'll tell you someone else who cares, the millions of Iraqis who the French and Russians would be condemning to death under Saddam's rule.

    Non Violence will prevail. Give peace a chance. Geez.

    allyouneedislove


    Got anything besides one liners and tired slogans?
  25. darthmalt16 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2000
    star 4
    J_F_T look at the bottom of my post
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