Vader/Anakin Ghost in Jedi

OK I posted this under Classic Star Wars but told to move it here. It fits better under the OT forum but I do as told. I dont quesiton it.

It seems, if the videos/pic are real, that the old Anakin Ghost from Jedi has been replaced with that of the younger EP3 Ghost of Anakin.

thoughts? I like the idea but I watched the video and it looks BAD! very bad

 

Anakin died in his 40's, therefore he should be a ghost in his 40's.

Basically he should be played by Shaw not Hayden

 

I was going to post this in the DVD thread, but since this has gone underway I'll do it here.

In Episode II, one of Anakin's struggles is CLEARLY his fear of mortality, death, the circle of life that he can't control. He couldn't stop his mother from dying, he feels if he had more power he could have (GL touches this in the DVD commentary). The Dark Side is the path which you DENY the circle of life.

No Spoilers.

Overall in the saga, I feel it makes more sense thematically wise for Hayden to be there.

 

Anakin died in his 40's, therefore he should be a ghost in his 40's.

Shaw looks 80.

RB

 

Well on the whole Hayden insert into RotJ thing

Some people say his spirit died when he fell into the lava/became darth vader etc and that's why he looks like HC at the end of RotJ

But the point is his spirit isn't dead. It was never completely extinguished which is why he was redeemable. So the whole spirit died thing doesn't wash. It assumes that there is none of old Anakin's spirit in Vader which we know to be obviously untrue.

So that can't be the reason the spirit looks young.
So out with the "spirit died 20 years ago" theory.

On the other hand there's nothing to say that the ghosts should appear to Luke as he remembers them. It rather could be that they appear as they last remember themselves. This works more because, Anakin probaly hasn't looked into a mirror in decades and now that he's come back to the light side he's remembering how he looked to himself before his fall and his manifestation reflects that. This also neatly solves the whole ben and yoda being older thing as they last remember themselves as being very old.

I think you'd be better off with that idea theory55.

For the record. I don't like the idea of the change though. I would rather see Anakin old as he would have been had he never been tainted. The proud Jedi he would have grown up to be given form by his redemption from the dark side. From a storytelling perspective I find that much more touching.

With the change, it seems like Ben and Yoda got the short-end of the stick somehow. I think its better to see an older, wiser Anakin finally make peace with his old compatriots. Now he looks like just the way he did just before he went off the deep end.Visually speaking that's reverse storytelling.

I think Lucas wants to create a link between the two trilogies for gretaer recognition and worked up an explnation after the fact to justify it. Not a good rationale for a plot point.

Besides, Sebastian Shaw's interview made him seem like such a nice old bloke. I'd rather that every second of his existing work was kept. It wasn't much but it had trememdous emotional impact.

 

I liked Shaw as the force ghost, but after thinking about it, Hayden does make more sense.

The young force ghost represents that the good Anakin was redeemed and that he fnally remembered his TRUE self.

He reverted to "The true self he had only forgotten". I think he does this to show Luke that he was right about him and to let him see what the good man he once was looked like.

...On top of that, Anakin's old body was badly scarred and had possibly no limbs left. That would be pretty messed up to return as a mangled up force ghost, which is technically what he should have looked like in the first place when Shaw appeared.

 

I think that Lucas will explain it in Episode III. If he doesn't then people can flip out.

RB

 

Agreed RB. he may make it all clear to us in EP 3. Hopefully.

 

I think that Lucas will explain it in Episode III. If he doesn't then people can flip out.

They'll flip out even if he does explain it. Because that's what they want to do.

 

They'll flip out even if he does explain it. Because that's what they want to do.

So true... I keep hoping that Lucas does something so polarizing that the only people left loving his movies are those who actually try to like his films (and his choices).

RB

 

What is all the blacked out stuff??? How do you do that?

It looks like the goverment's release of what happen at Roswell, NM?

 

episode 3 spoilers

 

Excellent post, Star Wars Fan X. Those are just some of the reasons why the Young Anakin just doesn't really seem as appropriate.

If Anakin's problem is that he can't "let go", why does he then revert to his youthful ideal self-image?

The Young Anakin represents the guy who screwed up, and his return at the end of ROTJ displays Anakin's desire to be that guy before he screwed up, but it was that very same desire which is WHY he screwed up in the first place. (got all that? )

Okay, I'll stop thinking.

I can accept the change as a visual bridge between the two trilogies. Seeing both Luke and Anakin, Jedi Knights, sharing the same moment. The hero who stayed true to the path saving the hero who strayed from it. Luke with his friends and Anakin back with his.

But... If it's anything like the video I've seen, Anakin looks slightly retarded (not intended to offend anyone) or socially awkward with all of those head movements. The fact that the footage is pasted onto Shaw's body is what makes it even more awkward.

 

So true... I keep hoping that Lucas does something so polarizing that the only people left loving his movies are those who actually try to like his films (and his choices).

That wouldn't hurt my feelings a bit either.

It's like the example I've given before about post-Crisis DC Comics. I hated Crisis and have disliked DC since then. But instead of whining non-stop about it, I just read other comics instead.

 

But instead of whining non-stop about it, I just read other comics instead.

Like how I view the Spider-Man movies. I will never watch the first one, I also don't complain about it. It means nothing to me.

RB

 

People have a right to not like the changes and it doesn' mean that you're not trying to like the movies.

Its like when you fall in love with someone and then that person changes and is suddenly different from the person you fell in love with and those changes can be for the better or for the worse.

For instance, I think you'll be hard pressed to find someone who doesn't like the revamped x-wing scenes in ANH but at the same time people do have huge issues with the Greedo shooting first scene because of the effect it has on a character and how they were perceived.

Those of you who begrudge us our opinion of not liking the changes should realize that we once loved these movies as much as you. Generally we still do. But we love them more or less the way we remember them. As they change, so do our feelings towards them because they're not quite the same anymore so its natural our feelings should change as well.

We shouldn't have to try to love his work. We should just love it without any effort like we did the first time. Now its gone and we miss it the same way old Obi-wan misses Anakin from before he died and became Darth Vader. He's not the same person now. And these aren't the same movies now (though the change isn't quite as drastic).

For the record I generally approve of almost any change that is simply bringing the effects up to date but I disapprove of any that alter or bring into question the way in which the characters were presented in the first versions of the films.
(and I don't approve of the Hayden as ghost-anakin thing) That opens up questions that George will probably answer in interviews but should really be addressed in the films (as not every film-watcher watches every director interview of every film they've ever seen)

 

Well, I've felt for a *long* time that Lucas was gonna have Anakin as a young person in the ghost scene and why all this stuff is happening. I figured it out a while ago. How?!

The Emperor has no motivation. It's one of the big flaws in the OT. What does this guy want? Is he just power hungry? What *Motivates* him?!

I figured that the Dark Side of the Force uses individuals as pawns to achieve its only goal - to spread and control everything. It is its very nature.

This was confirmed in TPM when we learnt that the whole issue is that the Force is out of balance. As the Dark Side grows it covers everything and will eventually consume everything.

How is it stopped? By destroying its willing vessel - in this case Palpatine. And instead of it passing onto an Apprentice, the last Sith converts back to his Jedi code.

ROtJ *doe* make it clear. When Anakin dies Vader is born. Anakin's gonna be *messed up* in ROS - he'll look quite dead, I'm sure. Once the Vader persona takes over it "must obey" Palpatine who is nothing more than a host for the Dark Side.

You have to grasp that Lucas is as influenced by Eastern myth as he is by Western. In the Hindu sagas, such as the Ramayana, when Ravana is defeated, the many layers of evil are dissolved and underneath he is still his youthful, beautiful self. I see a consonance there.

And don't forget, Anakin isn't just anyone - he was *chosen* by the Force to go on this dark, terrible odyssey to balance itself out. The regular rules don't apply.

Now, if you prefer the old story, I am totally on your side - you *should* have your own DVD set. But for the moment this is all we get. I like both stories - but I prefer the whole Saga.

 

Is it something that a veteran like Lucas should send as a message to young filmmakers? Probably not. Am I going to stop watching SW because of it? No. It really depends on how strongly you feel about the ethical part of filmmaking that determines how far a given person can go with this. If they went back and changed something in " The Godfather " or " Gone With the Wind " the outcry over this would be tremendous, but we are talking about a movie where your ability to suspend disbelief isnt just a helpful tool, its priority, so I dont think your gonna hear much about it if its the case.

 

If they went back and changed something in " The Godfather " or " Gone With the Wind " the outcry over this would be tremendous,

Well, it would be wrong with GWTW because Victor Fleming is dead, but in the case of The Godfather, if Coppola wanted to change anything in any of the Godfather movies I would support his right to do that 100%.

 

I think Anakin's Real Father hit it right on the head. Maybe Anakin just chose to appear that way. Maybe it isn't some cosmic-psycho-schizophrenical reason, but he just wants Luke to have a chance to see the real Anakin, without a bald skull half-severed, no hands, legs and feet, etc.

He has to go back a few decades to do that since he was crispied as a young man, so there you go.

 

My my problem with having a ROTS Anakin in the ghost scene is that it raises more questions than it answers. Yes looking at the PT Shaw is old for the part but, he played the Anakin that more "the good man that was your father" than Hayden will in ROTS. I like the updated special effects and I wouldn't mind seeing a forty something Hayden. But when the story is changing for what it seems like is no good reason that bothers me.

My hypothetical dialog during the ROTJ ghost scene

Obi-Wan looks over at Anakin

OBI-WAN: Well what happend to you?

ANAKIN: Diddn't you know? After I brought balance back to the force it granted me one wish.

YODA: Raw deal we got.

 

Well, it would be wrong with GWTW because Victor Fleming is dead,

So if the director of ROTJ were dead you'd be opposed to the changes?

Oh - wait - Richard Marquand is dead.

g

 

where is stan, kyle & crew??

 

So if the director of ROTJ were dead you'd be opposed to the changes?

Oh - wait - Richard Marquand is dead.

Those are two completely different circumstances and you know it.

My advice: go to eBay. Find a O-OT transfer and pick it up, and stop beating a dead horse. These movies are changing and there's no stopping it. Hate it all you want, but there's no stopping it. It's really your best choice.

Now I'm not 100% sold on this change, but I'm willing to go into it with an open mind. Even if it doesn't sit right with me, I am in no way going to start disliking what will surely be a much improved version of a movie I already love because of a 5 second change. That's just beyond the beyond.

Another thing that strikes me funny-many of the people (maybe not you, gez) who are so upset over this change are the same people who have often claimed that ROTJ sucked. Why be upset over a change in a movie you hated anyway?

 

IMO, since Anakin was only on the lightside of the force for about 23 years, then he should probably look around that age.

Only problem with that theory? Well, if a person was on the dark side and died but came back as a sith ghost only after 3 years of turning, he wouldn't look like a 3 year old would he?