Vader and "his" Emperor

In ESB, when Luke is preparing to leave in his X-wing and head off to Bespin to rescue his friends, Yoda says something very interesting. Cautioning Luke to remain on Dagobah and complete his training, Yoda states, "Only a fully trained Jedi, with the Force as his ally, will conquer Vader and his Emperor!"
Note the way that Yoda refers to the Emperor as "Vader's," even though it's quite well established that Emperor Palpatine is Vader's master, and not the other way around.
An interesting way to interpret this line would be to suggest that in purely symbolic terms, the Emperor is the physical embodiment of Anakin Skywalker's inner demons and fears. One could even take this one step further and suggest that Palpatine is not only Anakin's demon, but that of the entire GFFA itself. Which is why it is ultimately Anakin's responsibility, as the prophesied Chosen One, to conquer Palpatine, thereby liberating not only himself (from the "shadow" persona of Darth Vader), but the entire galaxy.
Another way of putting this would be to describe Palpatine as Tyler Durden to Anakin Skywalker's "Jack" (for all you "Fight Club" fans out there). The obvious difference, of course, is that Palpatine is very much a real, solid and corporeal entity, while Tyler Durden isn't!
Something I find very interesting about Palpatine (or Darth Sidious, if you prefer) is that it's other people who empower him. Literally, of course, I'm referring to Queen Amidala calling for the vote of "no confidence" in Chancellor Valorum in TPM, which allows Palpatine to step into the leadership role, and of course to Jar Jar Binks calling for the Senate to grant him "emergency powers" in AOTC, etc. But this also ties in symbolically with everything else I've already mentioned. Palpatine by himself is ultimately nothing. It's other people's fears, terrors and inner demons (individual and collective) which ultimately make the Master Sith into the galactic monster that he is!
Regarding my earlier "Fight Club" analogy, I also realize that people can make an alternate comparison. That is, a good claim can be made that it's Darth Vader who is actually the Tyler Durden figure to Anakin Skywalker's "Jack"! But that would imply a greater internal conflict on Anakin/Vader's part, when that is something that Vader would be extremely quick to deny the existence of. ("There is no conflict!" - ROTJ)
Thoughts? Comments? Opinions? Let's hear 'em!

 

Interesting thoughts, though I view the quote in a different light.
Vader and his Emperor.
To me, this indicates that Yoda doesn't accept the Empire or the Emperor for that matter. That such things are concerns for Vader and other greedy, corrupt men who have embraced the empire. It is sort of like that "George Bush isn't my President!" type of thought process. Where if you don't support the man, you tend to not accept their authority either.

"is that it's other people who empower him."
I completely disagree with you on this point.
Sidious is the spider, he creates the web, tangles the other characters in that web, and when the time is right, he consumes them. He basically catches them all in the web and uses them. He is the ultimate puppet master, the architect that designs everything. He manipulates people, through the manipulation, they lead him to a high place of power. They don't choose to empower the man, he just sort of designs it that way. When you state it like that, you make it sound as if they are in control of the situation, and they aren't.

-Seldon

 

I believe you are absolutely correct, Darth-Seldon, at least on the literal, physical level. But I was speaking more in symbolic terms. You are correct insofar as Palpatine knows which buttons to push, how to work the system of galactic government to his advantage, and how to convince the people around him that he's acting for the greater good. He truly does play the galaxy like a harp from Hell! BUT...he wouldn't be nearly as good at doing what he does if he didn't have the raw materials to work with. Fear is the ally of the Sith!

 

Raw material? The fear is artificial, he produces it himself.

-Seldon

 

Your right about that Seldon - it seems just judging from RotS that Palpatines proselyetation is directed solely at Anakin. When he turns him, he in effect creates the " face " of the Empire. Kind of scapegoating him in a way. If I has to wager Id bet that Palpatines public appearences after RotS are few and far between.

 

But, but, but, but, and.. BUT, how did Palpatine make the Galaxy accept a SITH LORD as the new figurehead of the New Order?

I know that it was "rumored" that the Senate was controllled by Darth Sidious, for many years, but when an actual "Darth", a Sith Lord, started walking around doing Palp's bidding, it must have raised a few eyebrows among the non-Sidious-controlled Senators. as well as the general public, because, even if Palps convinced the entire Galaxy that the Jedi were evil... Count Dooku, the biggest, most recent threat to the Republic was a Dark Lord of the Sith!,

I guess people are stupid, even in the GFFA...

 

Interesting theory. I like it. Puts a whole new spin on the scene, and it really makes sense considering Anakins demon was the Emperor, and not vice-versa.

 

Lord Seldon,
I must concede that your take on Yoda's line is probably more likely the correct one than mine is. The line, "At an end your rule is, and not short enough it was!" from ROTS certainly bears out that interpretation.
But, BUT...one of the beauties of the dialogue of the SW Saga (and one that certainly goes over the heads of most critics) is that it's so flexible in terms of its applicability.
First example: In ANH, when the Millenium Falcon is being pulled in by the tractor beam and Han declares, "They're not getting me without a fight!" Obi-Wan calmly counters with, "You can't win, but there are alternatives to fighting." Obviously, from simply watching ANH alone, the specific interpretation is that instead of trying to blast their way out of the situation, they're going to resort to "sneaking around" (much to Han's chagrin!). But ultimately, the idea of "alternatives to fighting" is one of the driving thematic elements of the entire six-film Saga! During the duel with Darth Vader, Obi-Wan glances at Luke, then closes his eyes and allows Vader to slice through his cloak as he "transforms into the Force." Luke's immediate reaction, of course, is the horrified "NOOOOO!!" followed by a few further volleys of blaster fire. But then, in ESB, when Vader gives Luke the choice between joining the Dark Side or being destroyed, he opts to step into the void below him. It's obvious that at least on a subconscious level, Luke is to some degree internalizing the ethos that old Ben was trying to pass down to him. Finally, in ROTJ, when the Emperor tells him to strike Vader down and take his place, he ultimately tosses his lightsaber aside, having consciously hit on the proper "alternative." True, he would then have been destroyed by the Emperor, but Anakin/Vader, seeing this and possibly taking inspiration from his son's example, then turns on his master and hurls him down the reactor shaft (the final of many such voids shown throughout the Saga)!
Second example: In AOTC, during the quietly intense meeting between Obi-Wan and Jango on Kamino, Jango declares of his clones, "They'll do their job well. I'll guarantee that!" It's fair to say that someone who's simply serving as a genetic template, and also as hired muscle for Dooku/Tyranus, is probably not going to be privy to something like Order 66. But after ROTS, during which we watch in horror as all the Jedi get slaughtered by the clones, that line from Jango in AOTC takes on a quite different, much more sinister and threatening dimension. And one, as I said, that was probably not intended by the person who spoke the words.
I point all this out, Darth-Seldon, not to be condescending or pedantic, but just as a reminder that sometimes words can take on additional resonances and layers of meaning, particularly in drama. I understand that as a fan of George Orwell's "1984" (yeah, I've read your bio!), you probably have a very good understanding of how malle

 

(sound of crickets)...
Thoughts? Comments? Opinions?

Anyone?

 

(sound of crickets grows louder)...
"Is there anybody out there" - Roger Waters

 

I had always thought it was a simple line that would be like *Vader and his boss*

 

I think that Yoda was refering to the fact that Luke had to battle Vader and needed this battle with Vader to overthrow Palpy. Remember that he said that Luke could only be a knight when he had confronted Vader. everything Yoda or Obi wan ever told Luke was that Vader was the guy to beat, to confront and that Vader was the ultimate bad guy (this was before they told him he was Luke's father).

I think Qui Gon Obi Wan or Yoda must have had some insight in the future, realizing that only if Luke could find the last remaining bit of the light-site Anakin within Vader, they could overthrow Palpy. Luke wasnt strong enough to beat palply or Vader. Yoda and Obi Wan must have realized this. Still they send him out to battle Vader. The only reason they could have for this is, is because they knew there was the possibility that Vader might return to the light side. They knew that Vader couldnt face the fact of losing yet another member of his family after seeing both his mother and padmé die. So they send Luke to seek out Vader, knowing that Vader couldnt kill him. By saying Vader and his emperor, they only emphazised the fact to Luke that vader is the key to succes.

 

Interesting point,but I think it was just oldschool Lucas writing.
Perhaps its because Darth Vader is the sith lord,and his master is just an Emporer now.So its not his sith master,its his emporer.

Or maybe its because he established the Empire in reason,by doing the hand work while Sidious just did the planning and told everyone what to do.

 

Like other Users have said, nice points but I think you are being too literal with the quote.

Every example we've seen throughout the Saga has given us the perception that obviously Palps is in charge and Vader is second in command. I think Yoda's quote is just referring to Vader and Palpatine's Sith Apprentice. No more ... no less.

 

Or simply Yoda saying that he doesn't recognise Palpidious' authority. The same as anyone who didn't vote for Bush. "He's your President"

 

Great point! I can deffinetly see Yoda being defiant against Palpatine's rule.

 

i like your points about the complexity of palps empowering himself.

it seems that everyone gives in to him willingly which is very scary. for me it ties in to the idea that freedom has to be earned, too and that we are fools to give it up but in a strange way we also like to give it up because it frees us from responsiblity of our actions. part of me wants to rule my country because i assume i would do it so much better, but the other big part of me is thinking that it's better left in our leaders however incompetent hands becasue then it's their fault if something goes wrong.

 

Also, another poster by the name of mandragora pointed out to me in a PM that line from ROTJ, when Palpatine tells Luke: "With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant!"

 

yeah, mandy and i talked about it, too.

with luke, though, i think he didn't have a great idea of how powerful the emperor was. i always interpreted vader blocking luke's saber as saying that once he goes there, he is already giving in to his anger etc. so, that serving the dark side i.e. the emperor right there.

with anakin it struck me when i watched the turn scene that palps had nothing to do with him pledging himself to him, kneeling down and offering his soul. palps didn't even have to ask for it. anakin just seemed glad to give it up in a way. i'm not implying he was glad, but i did think that he was under a lot of stress (obi got that right!) and wanted someone to end that stress, which palps did. and caused him a different sort.

 

He's perfectly aware that he's given power by other people. He even tells them. Very clever. Gives the impression they can take

"It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling. The powers you gave me I will lay down when this crisis has abated."
"I need your help, son."
"I am depending on you."
"With each passing moment, you make yourself more my servant."

On the issue frared noted, it's curious to watch the differences in Anakin's attitude towards subordination. While Obi hardly manages to keep him on the leash and Anakin's always speaking up against him, he is a lot more obedient when it comes to the council members. Although he doesn't agree with them he rarely objects and if he does, he does so in a whole different manner (the not being granted the master title issue aside). And when it comes to Palpatine, he almost never objects, not even before the turning scene. Total subordination. I still haven't quite figured out what is behind this difference. It might be the primitive mechanism of being willing only to submit to a "master" he perceives as very predominant, but the peculiar thing is that he was quite willing to submit to Palpatine even before his turn, when he didn't know anything about the powers of Palpatine.

 

it might have to do with palps never giving him reason to disobey. with palps just being *nice*.

sometimes i think he has that understanding of things that people who are nice can only mean well... and with obi-wan he doesn't have that feeling of him loving and understanding him.

 

ehm ... seems I didn't finish the first paragraph in the post above...

Let's try it again, then: He's perfectly aware that he's given power by other people. He even tells them. Very clever. Gives the impression they can take away these powers from him any time. Which, in a sense, is true and at the same time isn't. They could take his powers away any time, technically - it's not him as a person who prevents that. Again, it's themselves who make it impossible for them to take away his powers. It's not really him who has control and power over them, it's their fears that do. He's just the one who is exploiting their fears. And since they are unable to free themselves from their fears, they in effect are unable to take power from him.

 

much better and hasn't stopped sounding scary.

 

This is an interesting thought - I've been wondering lately if Sidious/Palpatine is actually meant to be a real person; this might sound weird, but maybe at least on a certain layer of the Saga the Sidious character is more like an archetyp materializing as a fictional character than like a person depicted as a fictional character as are the others. It would explain the absence of any deeper psychological mechanisms in this character, and also why there is no backstory on him (I've read somewhere that Palpatine backstories have been declared off limits even for the EU). And why he sometimes seems to talk to the audience as well as his fellow characters - with hidden messages in his line that are not obvious to them.