Saga Vader: Family Man

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by JediMasterChiefYoda, Feb 11, 2012.

  1. JediMasterChiefYoda Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2003
    star 3
    As Obi-Wan points out, the Emperor knew that Vader's children would be a threat to him. Knowing the Anakin threw away everything in his life to try to save his wife's life, even to the point of killing almost all his friends, destroying his health and his body, and virtually enslaving himself to Palpatine, why in the GFFA does Palps think that it's a good idea to torture and kill Ani's son right in front of him? For one thing, Luke would know were any other remaining cells of the rebellion would be hiding (no indication shows that the Emperor knew the Rebellion was bring all its toys to this fight), and that Vader would grab, probably longingly, to anything that would link him to his beloved wife.
  2. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Because Palps has gone insane at this point, which is quite obvious from his insane trap, his insane behavior and his cackling. He didn't have the mental capacity to think clearly. In the end, his own power was his undoing, which is quite tragic if you think about it.
  3. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Agreed. Also, he got cocky. He was so used to things going his own way, he was blind to Vader/Anakin's confict. "By now you must know that your father can never be turned from the darkside. So will it be with you." Just arrogance.
    Having said that, my only gripe with Vader's redemption is the amount of time he takes to intervene and save Luke. You would think with what we see of Anakin in the prequels he would need less convincing. But it still works, I guess you wouldn't expect the reawakening if a dead soul to be that instantaneous.
  4. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Vader had twenty years to leave everything Anakin is and cares about behind. He believes in the empire and is a bonafide Sith Lord as seen in TESB. Ambitious, with a mind like steel and disillusioned in everything honest and good. In fact, he is not much better than Palpatine. Under that circumstances, it is no suprise at all it took him so long.
  5. HevyDevy Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 13, 2011
    star 4
    Good points, and like I said, Anakin is dead until this moment. It takes something drastic to create a spark.
    But still, you would think that The Emperor would be more cautious considering Anakin's attachments turned him. He was blind enough to be totally unaware of Vader's conflict. It's a fitting parallel to Mace not seeing Anakin's betrayal coming in Revenge of the Sith. Just saying...
    JediMasterChiefYoda likes this.
  6. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Yes, empathy wasn't his strong suit at that point.
  7. JediMasterChiefYoda Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2003
    star 3
    About seeing Vader's anguish, Palps MAY not have been able to see it. Remember when Luke and co. arrived at Endor, Lord Vader could sense Luke's presence, but the Emperor couldn't. Maybe, like the Jedi loosing connection with the Force some 25 years ago, with the Return of the Jedi (pun intended) his own Force ability may have been slipping, and due to his growing maddness, he may not have realized it.
  8. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Of course, now with the Blu-ray changes, he can't miss it!

    Lucas, you is BRILLIANT.:oops:
  9. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Remember, even in the PT, Palpatine had grown used to sacrificing his apprentices. And, not being a father himself (AFAIK), he may have failed to understand the potential for a deep attachment between father and son.

    Furthermore, Palpatine had ruled the galaxy with an iron fist for almost 20 years, and aside from the destruction of the first Death Star, had never really suffered any major setbacks that we know of.

    Yes, as Luke pointed out, Palpatine's overconfidence was his greatest weakness. Luke totally called it.
  10. JediLight Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    May 31, 2001
    star 4
    Anakin and Luke's turn to the dark side were very different. Yes, both were lured by power, but that's where the comparison ends.

    -Anakin was lured by an empty promise (keeping Padme alive). Makes sense why Sidious thought Anakin would turn.
    -Luke, what drew him to the dark side? So he could be Sidious right-hand-man? To kill his father? For what? He hated the Empire and saw them as evil from the beginning. Luke had zero motivation to joined the dark side. Sidious tried to draw Luke's anger/aggression - but really what did that mean? Anakin didn't become Vader right after slaughering the Tusken Raiders or when he beheaded Dooku. It actually took MORE. Sidious, who for the smartest man in the galaxy really played Luke's situation poorly.

    I actualy think Lucas kind of blundered Anakin's turn. I think we all believed before the prequels were made, that Anakin would turn the dark side using his anger. In reality, anger aided Anakin to the dark side, but it wasn't the driving factor.
  11. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    Not really an empty promise given the abilities of Palpatine's former master.

    We had heard that he was seduced.
  12. MandalorianDuchess Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 16, 2010
    star 3
    Well, no, the motivation was that he wanted to protect those he cared about. That is why Vader tortured Han & Leia in order to lure him - and why Luke fell for it, despite Yoda's warnings. Luke wants to keep what happened to Owen & Beru from happening to others. But obviously he has no mother figure, no wife... it is a little different. However, Luke's commitment to ending the Empire's rule is pretty profund, he has no other life to really speak of after joining the Rebels. The only possible option would be to join the Dark Side. And this is why Vader tries to tempt him by saying they "could rule the galaxy as father and son".

    Luke is basically fighting an oppressive gov't that happens to be led by a duo of Sith lords. He'd have to have been an incredibly powerful Jedi to defeat both of them via conventional combat: something that neither Mace nor Yoda nor Obi-Wan had been able to do. And, in the end, Luke prevails not by using the Force, as much as by appealing to his father's humanity, to the good in him. Obviously, no Jedi in the saga had ever been able to get two Sith lords to eliminate one another by appealing to the good side of one of them.

    And Anakin's fall to the dark side actually does follow pretty much the path that Yoda warned about: fear led to anger, anger led to hate, and hate led to suffering. The part about being able to save Padme was bait, because ultimately Anakin wanted to make the fullest possible use of his power as a Force-sensitive person - the one with the highest concentration of midi-chlorians in the known galaxy.
  13. fistofan1 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 8, 2009
    star 4
    The way I see it, Palpatine could hardly stand waiting in the shadows leading up to ROTS. He was a ticking dark side bomb. When he accomplished his goals, he "blew up" and threw caution to the wind. He felt he didn't have to take as much care with his plans because he rose above anything that could impede on them. He didn't realize he could be wrong until it was too late.
  14. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Well, I think Palpatines hand was forces in this matter. Vader was already plotting his demise so he had to replace him. That's why he turned to Luke, who was the only other option at that time. But still, I don't think he was really capable of thinking things through with Luke.
  15. DRush76 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 25, 2008
    star 4
    Maybe, like the Jedi loosing connection with the Force some 25 years ago, with the Return of the Jedi (pun intended) his own Force ability may have been slipping, and due to his growing maddness, he may not have realized it.


    Many tend to view Palpatine as mad by ROTJ. I don't believe it for one second. I think he had simply become too arrogant and sure of himself - which was the same mistake that the Jedi made in the PT.
  16. Lady_Skywalker87 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 4, 2008
    star 3
    Ditto DRush. Luke told him as much: "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
  17. JediMasterChiefYoda Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Aug 8, 2003
    star 3
    I didn't mean mad as in insane, but he certainly was mad with power and full of himself because he never have a major failure in his plans for his life and in his career path. No wonder, with his run of luck, that he was overconfident.
  18. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Megalomania is a form of madness.
  19. DarthBoba Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 29, 2000
    star 9
    Yeah, I don't think he was crazy either. Just deluded and overconfident.
  20. SithLord_1270 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2008
    star 3
    I don't think Palps was insane at that moment . Or losing his Force ability. What happened to him was the same thing that happened to Maul many years b4. On the edge of victory, he got cocky. He felt that his victory was assured and was not aware of what was going on in Vader. He failed to take into account that even though Vader had been a dedicated Sith for 20+ years, encountering Luke would awaken something in Vader. He either didn't think of it, or( more likely) in his arrogance ignored it and thought it unlikely.

    Remember, 20+ years ago, he had gotten Anakin to betray the Jedi & destroy them. So, he probably thought that if he could get Anakin to be loyal enough to do than then surely killing his son should be no problem.
  21. Darth_Pevra Chosen One

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2008
    star 5
    Palpatine builds giant phallus symbols, cackles like a madman, his plans in ROTJ are a pile of dung and he is delusional. What more evidence do you need?

    In the end, his own power destroyed him.
  22. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Palps was stupid and evil.

    Imagine anakin never became a sith, and he raised children luke and leia with padme on Coruscant or Naboo!!:):D:cool:=D=[:D]:D!! Too cute!!!
  23. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    Obi wan was afraid that the Emperor would recruit Luke and Leia to the darkside. That's why they were put with separate adopted parents- if one is found the other is in a different location and is safe. Sidious would'nt hurt Vader's children, he would make them his apprentices.
  24. Iron_lord Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Sep 2, 2012
    star 6
    Pretty much. After RoTS, he sees Anakin as "damaged goods"- still very useful, but eventually will need replacing.
  25. Lord Tyrannus Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 18, 2012
    star 4
    What do you mean? Is my theory true? Why did obi wan hid the twins?