Vader/Gollum, Bilbo/Obi-Wan, Mustafar/Mt. Doom, the end of the duel

I can't believe people can't see the similarities between the two sometimes.

Orphan boy, raised by uncle, because of his connection with a 'crazy wizard' is forced by impending danger to leave home to find his destiny. He meets a disparate group of friends along the way. The wizard is killed (but will transcend death and be more powerful than before). The group of friends gets split up into smaller groups, each of whom have their own adventures, until eventually the group is finally reunited after a battle to end all battles that sees them all play their part in saving the day, but not before the 'orphan boy' has had to face becoming the very thing he set out to defeat.

That's the basic gist of both Luke's Journey and Frodo's, although in LOTR (spoiler) the journey costs Frodo his life (all that 'gay' stuff at the end isn't quite so 'gay' when you know his departure at the end is a metaphor for his death). Having been touched by evil (like Anakin) Frodo can't survive into the new world that is to come after the end.

After a fashion, The Matrix follows the same pattern, and by the time it's over, so will Harry Potter, and all the tales ('cept for harry potter, but I predict it will also) end with an act of self sacrifice to save eveyone else, with a little 'dark side of Harry' plotline thrown in with him facing becoming his worst enemy. Harry potter was an orphan raised by an uncle, who because of his connections with wizards leaves his home to seek his destiny, and Thomas Anderson leaves his home to seek his destiny because of a 'wise leader', etc, etc, etc, he faces, and becomes his worst enemy, and does not survive into the new world he made possible, etc. Meanwhile, concurent with the main plotlines, a major love story is played out in each, as well as the redemption of one or more characters who have strayed from the path he should be on (Solo, Lando, Vader, Aragorn,Morpheus, Some guys in potter,) and all have a shadowy, behind the scenes figure who is trying to direct the destiny of everyone to their own ends.

They really ARE all the 'hero with a thousand faces' archetypes down to a tee



ON TOPIC AT LAST:

I assume that Anakin WOULD have fallen straight into lava and been totally submerged, totally consumed by power mania, if the LOTR films had not been made, but just to keep it a little fresher after the submerging has only relatively recently been seen in a major fantasy trilogy. And, as it happens, Anakin bursting into flames is even more harrowing than being submerged, so if the icky stuff is your bag, you can thank LOTR for that one, in my opinion.

 

oh please.....yeah george sat around finding ways to seemlesly merge the two franchises together so they would unite LOTR and star wars fans! it all makes sense now! LETS ALL THANK LOTR FOR ROTS! yaaayyy!

 

Bilbo spared Gollum and lets say for argument sake that Obi-Wan definitely spared Anakin (Vader at that point)

Bilbo wasn't dealing with anyone who was any kind of a threat. Gollum couldn't hurt a fly, and although devious, wasn't a tactical threat either. Sparing Gollum was like allowing a centipede to live. Sure it might sting ya but chances are it won't hurt ya. Even later when Gollum is a few feet from Froto and Sam he doesn't manage to hurt either of them. It's only when he gets the two friends to turn on each other that Frodo becomes endangered.

Now with regard to Obi-Wan's encounter, motivation and situation that leads to Vader's survival; I can't really justify any personal view since I haven't seen the film yet. So I'll grant it that there may very well be an exact similarity between the two stories.

On the issue of the fall to evil and the inadvertant and unexpected saving of the known realms; there is very little in common between the two tales.

In Vader's situation, he chose to follow the path of the dark side or his own free will and desire. He chose it for tactical as well as emotional reasons. His falling was entirely his own doing. Sure, he was manipulated by the Dark Lord, but at the crucial moment he was well enough on his own conscience to choose his path.

In the case of Gollum, the ring cannot be controlled, tamed or reasoned with. On top of that, it can't be destroyed. Atleast it couldn't be destroyed at the time that Gollum found it. He had no knowledge of any Mount Doom or what the ring's history entailed. Gollum was possessed by the ring, not the other way around. He never had a chance. The ring took him as a host and inspired wickedness, even murder. His motivations (if they were even his) were nothing like Anakin's who originaly sought the dark path to save someone else; Padme. Gollum only desired for himself; again, if it was even himself doing the deed.

At the end of these stories, Vader takes pity on his champion of a son who in defeat cries out for his father's help. From this pity, compassion is born and evolves into self sacrifice. Vader dies from his own choosing and his own will. The saving of the galaxy was forged by the will of a father to save his son's life.

With Gollum, it's simply a matter of luck that he was able to steal the ring from Frodo. At this point in the story, everyone failed. Even Frodo who was the best possible choice to secure victory for the good in the world failed at the crucial moment. But it wasn't his fault. It is the nature of the ring to corrupt the hearts of those who carry it. It cannot be willingly destroyed.

There was never a possibility of a good vs evil struggle concerning the ring where good might win. The failings of all the greatest warriors and heroes of the past had already proved that. The only reason Frodo got as far as he did with the ring is because hobbits are a simple folk with very little ambition for power or priveledge. In the end the ring was destroyed by accident. So Middle Earth was saved by the grace of chance. No one was redeemed and everyone failed but they all learned that it's ok to be a Human being; Elven, Dwarven, Halfling being as well.

Now if there had been some point where there was a struggle and Sauron was spared and then later commited some act of mercy in the form of self sacrifice, then I could agree that there is a definite similarity. I'm more inclined to see a similarity in Star Wars and the Grapes of Wrath. The main character chooses an act of crime to help his family and as a result loses his family in the process.

The main reason i don't agree with the idea of a similarity is the way the stories make me feel. The end of Star Wars makes me appreciate the family ties that are so often taken for granted and I feel the connection between Vader and his son. With Lord of the Rings, I get the sense that chaos saved the day and by the skin of their teeth the hobbits pulled off a high stakes gamble and it paid off.

 

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
o.k I'll leave the thread now.....yaayyyyy!

 

ROTS is the second option for the 'hero quest'. By the first, the hero serves others, and saves everything. By the second the hero serves himself and loses everything.

It's all mythical archetypes at work, with one version of the hero quest designed to inspire the audience to be good, the other to warn them of the consequences of being bad.

So there.

EDIT: The main character unable to recover from his ordeal is hardly a high stakes gamble that paid off.

 

ob1andreasen79

Dude what is your problem? Noone thinks that creative rip offs are bad. On the contrary, creative rip off is happening all the time in any form of art and some of the greatest works of art are 'borrowing' elements from previous works of art. Did Lucas rip off from Tolkien (among others)? Yeah he did. Did Tolkien rip off from Beowulf (among others)? Yeah he did. So what's wrong about that? Why do you feel threatened by the obvious fact that SW has many simmilarities with LOTR? I mean it is not even debatable. It is a given fact...

And by the way, what's up with the homophobia?

EDIT

What Darthoffski said. It is not like GL's ROTS is something even remotely original. Neither is LOTR for that matter. These basic myths have been around since, like, I don't know... forever?!?! Try Ancient Greek tragedies... All of ROTS is in there for christ's sake!

 

homophobia=queers gross me out. arachnaphobia=spiders are nasty! sorry dude...it's how I feel. look....maybe i SHOULDN'T HAVE BEEN SO JERKY...APOLOGIES....but...with all the cool spoilers and stuff coming out in the last two days..why are you guys all on this LOTR stuff? on the spoiler forum no less. sorry it just touched a nerve......
now as far as all the lengthy debates about mythology,campbell,yada yada yada ya, it's just getting old man! do you guys have a pulse? ROTS is coming out in less than 2 months.....and were still on gandalfs sack? WTF?
AND WHY DO WE HAVE TO EXPOUND THE FACT ALL STORIES ARE DERIVED FROM MYTH? no crap. how does this enhance our movie viewing experience? ok...if debating on these type of "originality" issues is fun for you....like i said before...tomatoe....tomawto.
I don't believe campbell and the "hero of a thousand faces" is a pre-requisite to enjoy star wars ok?

 

"No offence intended, but I think anyone who doesn't see the similarities between LOTR and SW is in denial.

Heck, there are even comparisons to 'Wizard of Oz' that I think are valid.

It's not an insult to LOTR or SW to recognize the similarities and acknowledge that Lucas was inspired by a lot of what came before him. He still managed to make his story fresh and new, and it's no secret that SW has inspired a lot of what has come after it. Again, that's no insult.

One of the things that struck me as a kid viewing the OT for the first time, was that it always had a familiar ring to it, even in elements like the costuming and props. Seeing them for the first time, I felt like I had seen them before.

Did anyone else get that feeling, watching SW for the first time?"


^^I love you^^

And not just because you have big boobs.

D_M_S_L


On the other hand...

"don't ask me questions like "do I know anakin is vader" because you are getting frustrated that I see nothing in common with some faggoty hobbits and bad cgi "gollum...gollum.." smeagol and anakins journey.
turning to the darkside of the force and the one ring corrupting people to return to its master......
not the same ballpark...not even the same sport.
dude...there is similarities in everything if you try hard enough.....do some of the themes in the movies match up? yes. but who cares? they are two entirely different worlds...characters..and events.
let me guess....you would be all for an ewoks meet the hobbits adventure right? say what you say man...I'm off to talk star wars.....i say take this crap to the LOTR forums....you may find more willing participants."

You, sir are a fool. You are way too upset about all this. And for the record, the CGI on Gollum was some of the best work ever done. And I believe it was done by ILM. They do work on other films than Star Wars, ya know...

Sorry, sorry I've said my piece, now I must sit around and do nothing...


D_M_S_L (Once Again)

 

I'd put the thread title like this

Vader/Gollum/Bilbo/Frodo, Gandalf/ObiWan/Luke, Mustafar/Mount Doom


V/G/B/F all experience the taste of the temptation from the source of dangerous power in their stories, and none of them are alive by the time their tales end

Gandalf and Obi wan both 'die' only to transcend death and become more powerful. Luke's innocence dies, but he becomes stronger

Mustafar and Mount Doom are both representations of Hell. The true friend gets out unscathed, the corrupted friend never recovers.

I realise this mixes both SW trilogies into the equation, but that's unavoidable, since LOTR, if the comparision is going to be made, has elements of true heroes who succeed and the other side of the coin, the hero who fails. SW seperates the different aspects of the hero quest into the seperate trilogies. But the themes are all there.

 

Man, I knew this would bring out the trolls! Gollum is bad CG? Dude, get your vision checked.

 

I never call for bans, but obi1andreasen79 needs to go.

 

First, if CGI Gollum was bad graphics, I suppose LOTR wouldn't have received an Academy Award for best CGI or whatever. Whoever said this doesn't know what they're talking about.

Second, I love whoever started this thread!!! I think you're right on target with the parallels that you noticed. IMO, in all of the movies combined, Luke=Frodo, Obi-Wan/Yoda/Qui-gon = Gandalf, Luke also = Sam (the whole not-giving up on Vader thing reminds me of Sam never abandoning Frodo), Padme = Eowyn/Arwen, and there are many other parallels. Will post more later.

 

Darth Maul Sith Lord just complimented me on my 'boobs'.


I guess it's time for me to hit the gym.

 

Ah well, as soon as ROTS is released the general public will be debating this issue for sure.

Yes, LOTR and SW parallel each other with many similar storytelling devices.

Yes, both are great stories.

 

Wow! Since I left on page 1, there have been tons of good comments, as also the inevitable hysteria as soon as LotR is mentioned, not to talk about the usual trolling!

Anyway, a little late, but from page 1:
Leonard_Shelby I like this comparison. Had Bilbo finished the job, Gollum wouldn't have been around to take the Ring from Frodo, and all of Middle Earth would've been covered in darkness for an eternity. Had Obi-Wan finished the job, Vader wouldn't have been around to destroy the Sith...and the Emperor would've ruled with an iron fist for much longer than he did. Nicely played.

Yes, that?s exactly why the parallel struck me. In both cases, it may be pity or past feelings of affection, or reluctance to do the deed. Which has a positive outcome at a future date, when neither of the original players ? Obi-Wan or Bilbo ? are present!

tkip It sounds as thought Anakin is asking for help at the end, but is refused....

Ah, I see another urban myth in the making! Where does Anakin ask for HELP? All he says is "Obi-Wan?" and then "I hate you!" Also, from the entire saga so far, especially from reading about Obi-Wan in RotS, I find it impossible to imagine that Obi-Wan would refuse help IF Anakin asked for it. He clearly thought the world of Anakin in RotS.

Rdaneel Before that Vader was simply a fearsome military commander and henchman of the Emperor. Not a cyborg or a Jedi/Sith.

True. But we are talking about GL in the last couple of years finalizing the DETAILS of the duel. When he decided to end it this exact way instead of MANY other possible scenarios. I had always thought that Obi-Wan would see Anakin disappear from view into lava, and assume he was quite dead!

Shirefox Extremely eloquent post on Page 2. Why is it that most people didn?t seem to get it at all? Short-term good ? opponent?s hand stayed? better outcome much later! Yes, yes, yes!

YYZ-2112 Leonard pointed out what I had to say here: the comparison is NOT between Vader and Gollum. It?s between one specific action of Bilbo?s and Obi-Wan?s.

Leias_love_slave, rancor_ismydad Ah.. the Gandalf/Obi-Wan parallels ? supernice but food for debate on the CT boards, yes?

obi1andreasen79 sigh...no offense to anyone...but I have been dreading these lotr and star wars comparisons.....looks like it finally happened! dooohh!
No offense taken. But to spare yourself needless agony, please leave this dreaded thread and MOVE ON where you can contribute to some positive discussion!

E D I T:
Doctor_SuperJedi Regarding your post on Page 3?.. see Leonard?s nice, succint response on Page 2. But you already must have, hmmm? Oh well!

DarthRoch58?s response:

yoshifett Wow, you are a brave soul forever_jedi!
Comparing SW to LOTR will really bring out the trolls...

Well, one can?t live in fear of trolls (or the Sith) all the time, can one? One insightful post = 10 trolls!

Violetsaber I agree about Dune. You know what?s funny, though? NO ONE screams and yells and whines when the DUNE trilogy is mentioned! Ultimately, these are all based mythical tales ? Dune, SW, LotR, The Ring Cycle. Here I was just struck by a comparison made between Obi-Wan?s possible action and Bilbo?s action in THE HOBBIT.
The parallels between LotR and the OT are just too plain for me to ignore. And known for more than 20+ years!

MYALBUMwillbeOUTSOON, DarthScully You both say that the Jedi are prohibited by the Jedi code against murder. But? Dooku beheading Jango, instead of just maiming him? Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan clearly setting out to kill Maul? I agree that "murder" IS definitely prohibited. But killing a Sith lord or someone working for a Sith lord doesn?t seem to be bad at all! Luke killed hordes of beings in the OT!

Darthoffski I assume that Anakin WOULD have fallen straight into lava and been totally subme

 

Respectfully, I realise the comparison wasn't between Vader and Gollum, but the motivations for "sparing" their lives (if Sparing is even what Obi-Wan does) are completely different because of their differences. That's the basis of the points i'm trying to express. I fully understand what the discussion is about, I just don't see it as so much a black and white situation.

But hey I could wrong and the similarity might be right there as obvious as daylight. Given that I can only respond in the truest sense, I only have my own perspective to go on; I mean if it's gonna be my opineon and not someone elses.

Anyway, I'd like to add that although I don't agree with the idea, it certainly has merit. If I didn't think so I wouldn't contribute to the debate

 

Hey YYZ It's all fine and cool! I didn't get to your nice long post on page 4 in my previous post. keep discussing!

See, this "parallel" is not exact, or perfect. And there can CERTAINLY be different interpretations! I am making a case made just for Obi-Wan's and Bilbo's actions - the motivation part is less clear - especially since we haven't even seen RotS. Bilbo didn't know Gollum - he didn't kill him out of pity for a stranger. Anakin was the closest person to Obi-Wan - as shown in RotS; he is no stranger. But he is a Sith Lord who has committed atrocious deeds and who has refused to turn back. As a Jedi, Obi-Wan should kill him. But out of some human emotion - he doesn't. The result: Gollum causes much harm - Anakin as well. Yet, a long time later, though their motivations are quite different, Gollum and Anakin achieve the same thing - complete destruction of evil in a moment when everything seemed poised to go to hell.

The main reason i don't agree with the idea of a similarity is the way the stories make me feel. The end of Star Wars makes me appreciate the family ties that are so often taken for granted and I feel the connection between Vader and his son. With Lord of the Rings, I get the sense that chaos saved the day and by the skin of their teeth the hobbits pulled off a high stakes gamble and it paid off.

For me, the final moral of both stories is VERY similar. Power corrupts - even the greatest and the best. That is what Luke understands so clearly, but Anakin didn't. Once one gives into the need for power, one slides ever deeper down a dark path. Family ties in both (for me) play a far less important role than compassion for everyone, including your enemy.

 

What, no Matrix comparisons?

 

Oooh... very good post.

This is a very interesting thread, and I think it will get some interesting reactions now.

 

I think the only way these movies are the same is because they are #3, both my farvorite charaters get Krispyed in lava, and the Frodo/Anakin secne. The plots are completly differant, not like some books I am readin!!! MAKE UP YOUR OWN STORY!!!

 

GL is a Tolkien fan and the SW saga does draw some inspiration from Tolkien's work as I recall GL mentioning.

 

can't belive I never saw this thread before!


yes lucas used many of the same theams and concepts that tolkin used in LOTR. but he (tolken) was inspired in much the same way lucas was. classic stories of hero's. good vs. evil. temptation, lust for power. just simply making decisions.

I would never say lucas stole any ideas or characters from tolken but he certinly was heavly influenced. but he was also inspired by westerns and buck rodgers, samuries, etc.

any ways to discuss...

obi wan and gandalf have odvious simularities. but frodo is much like anakin he is tempted to the dark side so to speak but ulitmatly remains true. sam the strongest character in LOTR is a lot like luke. never giving up on frodo/anakin. marry and pippen are like both the droids and han and chewie. they serve both purposes. something to contrast sam and frodo, and also to see through the eyes of the simplest of creatures.

its all just classic storytelling. it pains me that there are people on these boards who hate LOTR. I really don't get that. both complement each other in so many ways. it should just be a given if you enjoy one you will enjoy the other.

as far aas the LOTR films are concerned. jackson was so heavely influenced by lucas you cannot deny the simularities in the films. which I think makes it all the more fun. and kinda full circle. they are spictacular to watch. all 9 movies. (6 star wars 3 lotr, just to be clear, that I am not a loony).

 

Also Christopher Lee plays the same character essentially, in Dooku and Saruman....he shoots he scores!!!


NOT to mention the UruKhai are like the clones, a created army!!!

Merry And Pipin, are like 3p0 and R2d2.

 

Peter Jackson used a classic Star Wars line in Return of the King, but I cant remember which it was, anyone able to remind me...

Well its not word for word, but here it is...

Éowyn: "No...No, I am going to save you."
Théoden: "You already did...


Luke: "I have to save you."
Vader: "You already have..."

I remember noticing that when watching the extended edition, and thought it a nice touch...

 

Back to the core topic of this thread: The Vader / Gollum motif is, as mentioned before, a very old mythic archetype. Essentially stated, some myths stress that the "good" cannot win on it's own.

That is to say that the guys in the white hats aren't necessarily guaranteed victory in life simply due to the nature of their being "good." Sometimes the "good" only wins in the end once it learns from its past failures. Sometimes the "good" only wins because the failures of the "bad" nullify the failures of the "good" from a higher-level, non-polar perspective.

In both Star Wars and LOTR this theme surfaces in the form of an evil character who is absolutely essential to the recification of the problems in the world.

In Star Wars, there is the moment in RoTJ where Luke is hammering away at Vader and suddenly glances from Vader's amputated artifical hand to his own. Only by knowing of the example of his father and the capacity for the same failure within him does Luke avoid his father's fate. If it weren't for the illustrative example of his father and if that were just another Sith he were hacking at, Luke would have turned at that moment. Anakin's fall (and, along the lines of this post, his survival on Mustafar) was necessary in order to prevent his son's fall.

Some will make an argument that, if Anakin had not turned than perhaps the Republic would never have become the Empire, Palpatine defeated, and Luke never would have been threatened. Far more people will agree with what I have already said vs. what I am about to say, so for the record I consider the above to be my primary argument on this topic and this next part to be merely auxiliary. If you like you can skip the dotted off section below and jump directly to the rest of the primary argument:

---------

The democracy of the Republic was corrupt before Palpatine, he just took advantage of it. The Jedi has also become complacement and were flawed in many of their parctices (in my opinion). If Palpatine had been defeated around Episode II or III these flaws would have remained. The flaws in the Republic are the obvious corruption in the Senate (they do LET Palpatine be in charge, and allow the commerce guilds, etc. to have so much power). The flaws in the Jedi order, IMO, are that they focus on making sure that their students never encounter any true moral challenges. They allow only children into the order and forbid romantic love, so that as adults Jedi will not have familial attachments. They preach that Jedi must AVOID anger, hate, etc. instead of teaching how to DEAL with it. I say that this is akin to parents who try to make sure that their kids never see any nudity or hear any foul language in the media and spend their whole lives trying to fight these messengers rather than focusing on teaching their children how to properly RESPOND to such situations. Truth be told, even if you can manage to keep your kid's eyes and ears pure at home and at the cineplex, one day they will just hear it on the playground. Things like this creep into life no matter how good a parent one is, and IMO the better way to parent is to prepare your kids, not to over-shelter them, because as a parent you will not be around forever. This, however, is the old jedi way. It is the reason they don't know how to deal with Anakin, because he alreayd HAS these feelings. They only know how to try to prevent a person from encountering such things. They have no experience in counseling them in how to DEAL with them.

After RoTJ, it can be assumed that Leia and the other Rebels reinstate a just government that is not corrupt. More importantly, Luke himself represents the rethinking of the Jedi teachings. He himself is the dichotomy admitted and trained properly. He was raised by a real family and has real emotions and connections, and by the end of RoTJ he knows how to handle his emotions maturely and can still walk the path of a good Jedi (even though he wears black, like his father). Assuming that he rebuilds the Jedi order, now the faults of both the