CT Vader, Luke and the Emperor

In ESB we see Vader trying to convince Luke to join him so "they can rule the galaxy as father and son". He tells Luke the emperor has foreseen that Luke could destroy him. Does this imply that Vader is willing to do away with the Emperor, basically betray his master, and bring Luke to the dark side with him alone? If so does this contradict Vader's actions in ROTJ where he tells look the emperor "is your master now" and that he "must obey my master" and also where he blocks Luke's strike against the emperor at the beginning of the duel? Given the dark side rule of two would Vader have known that Luke would have taken his place had he turned?

 

I was always under the impression that Vader wanted to overthrow the Emperor with the help of Luke. He couldn't do it alone.

But when Luke resisted him in Cloud City and rather preferred death than to join his father, it became increasingly clear to Vader that this plan would not have worked.
He had tempted Luke with the prospect to end the conflict and bring peace and order to the galaxy and revealed to him that he was his father.

What else did he have to offer to Luke to make him possibly join?

Indeed, his behavior in ROJ looks contradictory. Instead of blocking Luke's strike against the Emperor in ROJ he could have done nothing and would have achieved his goal to have gotten rid of the Emperor.

But then, how would he have turned Luke to the dark side who instead tried to make his father abandon the dark side? Maybe Vader had planned that Luke would turn first to the dark side and then, the two of them could have taken out the Emperor?

But indeed, Vader's lack of ambition in ROJ is worthy of further examination.

 

Vader was a man of internal conflict, as Luke picked up upon. He had many directions he could've gone down. Ultimately, overthrowing the Emperor was just too hard for him to do. It was only the act of saving his son that led him to do something.

 

Vader could've wanted to have the coup against the Emperor when the time was right, which might not have been when his son was an unexperienced Jedi who knew nothing about the dark side. Even when old, Palpatine is still a nasty fighter, as Vader would remember from the events of Revenge of the Sith.

Also, for what it's worth, Palpatine claimed that it would take both him and Vader to turn Luke. Vader may have believed that (even though it looks like what Palpatine had in mind was to let them fight to the death and the survivor would be the the second Sith Lord, not having dual Sith teachers homeschooling Luke on the finer points of being evil).

 

Vader was indeed heavily conflicted in ROTJ. He wanted to be rid of the Emperor, and he wanted Luke to be by his side. But on the other hand, he behaved like an abused spouse and came to the Emperor's aid when he was threatened. When push came to shove, he just couldn't bring himself to let the Emperor die. It was only when Luke was being tortured to death right in front of him that his desire to spare Luke finally overcame the Emperor's shackles.

Vader's internal conflict of simultaneously wanting two opposite things was central to his character arc in the last two movies.

 

Yes, Lucas has said that Vader's true intention is to turn Luke and then they can overthrow Sidious. He isn't as vocal about it in ROTJ, but he is still planning that. Vader just knows that he cannot turn Luke on his own and thus he needs his Master's help.

 

Yes.

No, because at the beginning, Vader was planning to turn Luke and defeat Sidious behind his back. In ROTJ, Sidious is aware of everything leave Vader no room for a betrayal. That, plus he's conflicted about everything since Luke still believes in the Anakin persona.

 

All these things are going on but since Vader can't actually tell anyone this it's all internalized. We as the audience have to draw it out from the events of I-V before this.

There really is no one for Vader to talk to so it has to be brought forward by the viewer from his TESB plan.

Blocking Luke's strike on the Emperor is no contradiction as one strike isn't going to turn Luke to the Dark Side.

The "is your master now" and "must obey my master" can be interpreted as lures to Luke to kill the Emperor to "free" his father.

Vader is playing a dangerous game that he has almost no chance of winning as he tried to turn Luke (or at least set him on that path) and it didn't work. On top of that Sidious found out about Luke making it all the more difficult.

Vader can't do it but since he knows the mastery of Sidious to do so he wants him to turn Luke hoping that he can then use Luke's attachment to him as his father to then have the two of them team up against the Emperor.

As we see though Luke wouldn't be turned until Vader angered him so much with his comment about Leia but what Vader needed to send Luke over the edge and lost control would have ended up killing him save for Luke not falling in and killing a helpless man.

Anakin killed a helpless Dooku, Mace was going to kill a "helpless" Palpatine (as far as Anakin was concerned), Obi-Wan did not kill a helpless Vader and Luke also did not kill a helpless Vader.

In story presentation terms since Vader was going to kill the Emperor as a surprise to the audience Lucas could not present Vader as planning to kill him. Doing so would make it look like it's not because he's saving Luke but killing Sidious for his own gain.

It was all extremely difficult to balance. Lucas went through various permutations about how to present Vader.

 

Fascinating idea, it does indeed suggest something like "if you want me to run away with you, we first need to get rid of the Emperor".

 

Great way to look at it. I articulated something like the gist of this eight years ago. It goes to show that Vader is a deep character. Lumiya's statement that Vader despised this madman, Sidious, and yet viewed that tyrant as his own link to the world of the living could implicate Vader as a borderline personality. What you said, however, is a better way to explain it, IMO.

 

JD1975

I'm afraid some of us (myself included) are overlooking one particular tiny but very important detail in this discussion, therefore I'd like to withdraw some of my previous comments.

There is no contradiction in Vader's behaviour because already in ESB he was the faithful servant to the Emperor we saw in ROJ and his claim that he wanted to overthrow the Emperor with Luke was probably just a lie to get Luke interested in the offer.

For whatever reason Vader felt the need to carbon-freeze Luke upon his arrival in Cloud City is one thing. The decisive thing is that he wanted to do that in the first place, despite having sufficient time to think all the pros and cons of this procedure through.

The plan is obvious: To carbon-freeze Luke, deliver him like a frozen pizza to the Emperor, have him unfrozen and let the Emperor work his "magic" on Luke.

Assuming he planned to collaborate with Luke to overthrow the Emperor this would be a stupid strategy (and as such incompatible with a character who quickly adapts to new situations, improvises, and never gets rid of multiple options but rather keeps as many of these open at his disposal).

• Scenario A: Luke gets frozen in carbonite. He becomes an object that Vader is to deliver to the Emperor. I really would like to imagine with what kind of excuse Vader would come up with later to explain to the Emperor how he could have possibly "lost" a carbonite block (which he put somewhere to unfreeze Luke himself and prep him for the confrontation).
• Scenario B: Luke remains unfrozen and is taken into custody aboard the Executor. Somewhere on the way to Coruscant "resourceful" Luke could have found a way to escape his prison cell, steal a TIE fighter (he's a good pilot) and get away. Still the Emperor would be mad, but Vader could put some of the blame on the inefficiency of the people under his command. "Looks like we underestimated young Skywalker" (who proceeds to the coordinates provided to him by Vader for their conspiracy plan)

Worse, Vader publically announces his plan what to do with Luke once he's frozen in front of various Imperial witnesses:

VADER This facility is crude, but it
should be adequate to freeze
Skywalker for his journey to the
Emperor.

VADER I do not want the Emperor's prize
damaged. We will test it... on
Captain Solo.

Most Imperials there probably don't care too much what their eccentric commander is trying to accomplish with carbon-freezing this guy he's so obsessed about, but - without any pressing need - he vocally announces his intentions for everyone to hear. Now, all the Imperials learn about his intentions (or mission) and will truthfully say so later, should there be an investigation.

Sorry, but no. Vader has no second thoughts here other than to obey (and perhaps please) his master. Had his intentions been otherwise, he would have neither attempted to carbon-freeze Luke nor announce his intentions in front of other Imperials.

 

In the ROTJ novelization, Vader believes that, once Palpatine and he have turned Luke to the dark side, he'll be able to overthrow the Emperor with Luke's aid.

And that he can't turn Luke on his own - hence, he needs to protect the Emperor until Luke is turned (by them working together, as the Emperor suggested "Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force", and only until Luke is turned.

So - at the time - ROTJ Vader was compatible with "treacherous Vader".

 

Iron_lord

I wasn't excluding the possibility that Vader got treacherous ideas after ESB. I was saying that his claim in ESB, that he wanted Luke to join him so they would both overthrow the Emperor was a lie:

Join me and I will complete
your training. With our combined
strength, we can end this destructive
conflict and bring order to the
galaxy.

Had this truly been his plan all along in ESB, then carbon-freezing Luke was the wrong approach.

EMPEROR (to Luke)
I'm looking forward to completing your training. In time you will call
me Master.

There's no lie here and that was probably the plan ever since ESB. Certainly, Vader likes the idea to see the Emperor finish Luke's training and then to overthrow the Emperor, somehow.

But technically, any realistic hopes to accomplish that would have required Luke and Vader to plan this. Once in the presence of the Emperor, I'm certain he wasn't that stupid to leave them both unwatched so they could conspire. And Vader must have been aware of that.

 

The carbon freezing approach had already failed when Vader made his pitch to Luke. Their subsequent duel allowed Vader to get a better measure of Luke's prowess, and Vader realized that with Luke's help, they could succeed at overthrowing the Emperor.

 

timmoishere

Still that doesn't look like the Vader I think I know. Had he seriously considered from the beginning to join with young Skywalker to overthrow the Emperor he would have tested him longer to discover Luke's potential.

The way the first part plays looks like the servant completing his job as fast and efficient as possible: Trap Skywalker - disarm him - put him into carbon-freeze - deliver him to the Emperor. Job done.

Obviously Vader was looking forward to have at least a little fun with Luke. Unless I'm mistaken that was the first time ever that we noticed Vader to be disappointed:

VADER All to easy. Perhaps you are not
as strong as the Emperor thought.

 

Yeah, I forgot about that. I hope they re-canonize this little detail. (I think, if I recall correctly how Legends handled it; the Thrawn trilogy left it ambiguous, with Luke thinking that Vader was lying, and Mara and Palpatine believing that Vader was sincere. Shadows of the Empire suggests that the latter were correct.)

Vader could've been lying the whole time (although isn't still canon that the Sith apprentice is supposed to plot to overthrow their master?). However, given that as early as Revenge of the Sith he was expressing interest in overthrowing and replacing Palpatine, I would't be surprised if he wasn't at least wanting the option to have Luke as a confederate for a coup. Also, Vader is the one who suggests that they convert Luke. While I've always theorized that Vader's pretext was that Luke would become an acolyte like Asajj Ventriss or an Inquisitor, why would he want to risk introducing a rival unless he was hoping to recruit his own apprentice and replace Palpatine?

 

WebLurker wrote

Vader could've been lying the whole time (although isn't still canon that the Sith apprentice is supposed to plot to overthrow their master?).

From everything I know and learned, I can safely say that I never heard of any "Rule of Two" before the PT, that didn't exist at the time when ESB was being made.
To assume it was "still" applicable in ESB would inevitably mean that Vader told the Emperor in his face in ESB that he wanted to either (a) betray his master or (b) be relieved of his duties.

While I've always theorized that Vader's pretext was that Luke would become an acolyte like Asajj Ventriss or an Inquisitor, why would he want to risk introducing a rival unless he was hoping to recruit his own apprentice and replace Palpatine?

The Alliance was a serious threat to the Emperor and/or Vader trying to consolidate their Galactic Empire. Extreme circumstances call for extreme measures and as such Luke would have been a valuable asset, indeed.

He had intimate knowledge of the Alliance and as a bonus was a Force sensitive that could have used this knowledge with devastating results, would they have been able to turn him. IMHO, that was the essence of Vader's proposal.

Yet, by the time of ROJ it was somewhat revealed that Palpatine already had no more use for Vader.

VADER What of the reports of the Rebel fleet massing near Sullust?

EMPEROR It is of no concern. Soon the Rebellion will be crushed and young
Skywalker will be one of us! Your work here is finished, my friend. Go
out to the command ship and await my orders.

Vader has no idea about the plan the Emperor has come up with. Palpatine tells him to go while Sate Pestage and the other council member are allowed to stay. Vader is outside of the Emperor's circle. This is emphasized later, when he has to overcome the royal guards at the Elevator base to see his master, who rather feels Vader's intrusion to be disturbing.

 

Except he didn't want to carbon freeze him in the first place. That plan was created after he was found out by Sidious.

The treachery was going all along since Vader found out about Luke after ANH and didn't tell Sidious about it for years afterwards. He was looking for Luke without Sidious' knowledge (or if he did know then he didn't tell Vader until he felt Vader was actually close).

The offer from Vader was real and he already had these thoughts in ROTS as we saw before. Except there he actually feels that he would become more powerful by himself (as Sidious says to Yoda "Darth Vader will be more powerful than either of us") that is until his failure at Mustafar agaisnt Obi-Wan. Now he will not be powerful enough and Luke's power can be harnessed by him to overthrow the Emperor.

Once Vader was found out he had to play along with the Emperor's wishes. For all we know he had some other plans if Luke did accept his offer but it never got that far.

Remember Vader can't openly challenge Sidious. He was trying to do it off the side and recruit Luke and train him in secret. Once found out he had to play along with Sidious' plans of delivering Luke.

If it really was solely about capturing Luke and taking him to the Emperor then the ENTIRE Cloud City set up really makes little sense.Simply taking him would be very easy.

The main point from Vader's POV was to create a situation whereby he could test Luke's power. If Luke falls easily into the carbon freeze trap and is taken so easily then his power is weak and he's of no use to Vader. The whole exercise is Vader testing Luke.

If Luke isn't strong enough to merit Vader taking him on then so be it. Vader is playing a typical Sith game of playing on the edge. Vader ramps up each attack on Luke a bit more until he stops taking it "easy" and goes for killing blows down the passage and out onto the walkway. Though Vader does defeat Luke he sees plenty of power there that would be useful to him.

Vader is doing exactly what Sith do. The apprentice trys to find a path to power to kill the master and become the master.

 

Qui-Ran-Demera

Except he didn't want to carbon freeze him in the first place. That plan was created after he was found out by Sidious.

I'm not aware of this based on the film (ESB) or any of its background materials.

The main point from Vader's POV was to create a situation whereby he could test Luke's power. If Luke falls easily into the carbon freeze trap and is taken so easily then his power is weak and he's of no use to Vader. The whole exercise is Vader testing Luke.



VADER This facility is crude, but it should be adequate to freeze
Skywalker for his journey to the
Emperor.

VADER I do not want the Emperor's prize
damaged. We will test it... on
Captain Solo.

Most Imperials there probably don't care too much what their eccentric commander is trying to accomplish with carbon-freezing this guy he's so obsessed about, but - without any pressing need - he vocally announces his intentions for everyone to hear. Now, all the Imperials learn about his intentions (or mission) and will truthfully say so later, should there be an investigation.

So in case Vader tests Luke and finds out he's suitable material? He tells him to have himself carbon-freezed not to arise suspicion or will Vader construct an excuse why he didn't deliver a carbonite block containing Luke Skywalker to the Emperor?

 

I wonder.... he wants to test it on Han first to make sure the emperor's prize is not damaged.... perhaps deep down he worried the carbon freezing process could kill his son. Maybe testing it on Han wasn't just for the emperor's benefit but was so that he could make sure his son wasn't hurt. Impossible to prove but interesting to think about.

 

JD1975

He didn't mind hurting Luke by throwing heavy objects at him and cutting off Luke's right hand. I think the carbon freezing idea was more like a "gift-wrapping" for the Emperor. Once unfrozen Luke would have suffered from temporary blindness and would perhaps have been more susceptible to the Emperor's manipulations.

 

When Lando warns Vader that the freezing unit isn't designed for humans and could kill the subject, Vader orders Han be a guinea pig specifically because he doesn't want the Emperor's prize "damaged." And the reason Vader wanted to freeze Luke was for easy transport (as we know from Force Awakens, Force users can sometimes free themselves and are a pain in the heinie to recapture).

I think that Vader only began resorting to more violent means of subduing Luke when the initial plan failed.

 

I'm curious why Vader would bring Luke before the Emperor after what happened with Count Dooku? Is it possible both Dooku and Vader thought they would win the duel and not be killed?

 

Don't know about Vader and not sure what they've established about Dooku in canon, but in Legends, Dooku wasn't expecting to die in Revenge of the Sith:

 

Thanks for the info!! Very interesting. Perhaps a future movie will show us on screen what Dooku and Vader's motivation was through other characters.