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CT Vader vs Old Darth SIdious

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by NakkyGraphics, Jan 1, 2016.

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Vader vs Sidious

  1. Vader

    18.8%
  2. Sidious

    81.3%
  1. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Oh, okay.
     
  2. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Sidious is a sadistic Tyrant. Lord Vader would of course take him down in my opinion. They were both the deadly duo they needed each other however Lord Vader would be able to dispose of the Emperor and become the new Emperor. Maybe he kept him around because the Emperor knew all the right people and Grand Moff Tarkin was a pretty powerful overlord. Vader had serious issues with the Empire as seen by his style of leadership. The rule through fear approach. Disobey me and die.
     
  3. natureboy76

    natureboy76 Jedi Knight star 2

    Registered:
    Dec 11, 2009
    Both would be hindered much like Vader/Ben in ANH. One old and one mostly droid...
     
  4. BadCane

    BadCane Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2015


    and then there's this.
     
  5. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005
    Sidious is the master, Vader is the apprentice. If Vader were stronger he'd have already killed Sidious fulfilling the Sith way. The only way Vader kills Sidious is with Luke's help which is why Vader tried to recruit Luke in ESB. Vader cannot defeat Sidious 1 on 1. If Vader didn't lose on Mustafar he'd have taken out the emperor before the OT.

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  6. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Leaving aside the prequels for a moment and focusing on the Vader Sidious relationship you are reading too much into Vaders speech to Luke. What we know of Siths shows that they are manipulative. He obeyed his master in trying to tempt Luke to the Dark Side. You and others keep interpreting this as weakness on his part by requiring his son to aid in the destruction of his Master but contrary to this as a servant to the Empire he already was well placed to exert influence across the Galaxy. It was only on the Death Star that Anakin reemerged and returned to the light side up that point both Sith Lords were sitting comfortable as giants among men.
     
  7. BadCane

    BadCane Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 28, 2015
    Even leaving the prequels aside for a moment, I think Vader meant what he said to Luke. He wanted to overthrow Palpatine.
     
  8. Pancellor Chalpatine

    Pancellor Chalpatine Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 5, 2015
    Throughout the ENTIRE OT Vader wanted to KILL Sidious.

    He wanted to turn Luke so he OCULD kill him. Somewhere between 3/4 Vader, while still on a leash began to think about killing Sidious. We even saw it a bit in episode 3.

    If Vader could beat Sidious, he would. Heck as the instigator he would even have an ADVANTAGE by doing a sneak attack!

    Sidious wins easily. He was only able to beat Sidious because he got him when he was distracted. And even then Vader was stronger then ever. He was able to fight off the lightning and all the pain because the love of his son made him a borderline un moveable object. No matter how much Lightning Sidious would throw, Vader would push though the pain, even at the cost of his life because Luke successfully turned his father back to the light side of the force.

    In Short Sidious>Vader
     
  9. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    Leaving aside the prequels Vader did not want to remove Sidious from power. Certainly not at the moment he was consolidating his power in Episode V. The first Death Star was destroyed the Rebels had fled and the Stormtroopers were obediently being led by him in a bloody surge to exterminate all of the followers of Princess Leia, Luke Skywalker and the others. This would have been an opportune time to withdraw support for the Emperor and go his own way instead he abided by the wishes of his master. Sidious knew Luke was Vaders son yet they spoke in a casual manner about how Vader would take him from the rebels and make him a prize of the Emperor. While in VI their paths diverge significantly Vader was going to back his master. Infact it was Vader that convinced the Emperor to turn him. He didn't need to tell him that he could have easily forged an alliance with his son behind Sidious's back. Darth Vader was committed to serving the Emperor and only later did he have other ideas.
     
  10. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    Canon is that while Vader decided to topple Sidious after episode IV, he wanted to take the crown for himself rather than just murder the Emperor. And that requires elaborate preparations as he would need the support of the Empire's higher echelons to accomplish this as well as forces that are absolutely loyal to him rather than the Emperor. It shouldn't come at anyone's surprise that it took Vader years to get into a position where he can actually strike. But even then he wanted his son at his side, an apprentice. Because what is a Sith master if he has no apprentice of his own?
     
  11. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    We know Vader eventually wanted to replace Sidious but I agree with those that say it happened after Luke escaped from the Carbonite Freezing chamber. Before than he wanted to make Luke Sidious's servant. A Galaxy with two successors to the Emperor, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker. The Rebels would not stand a chance. Also there is something nobody has mentioned Yoda was still out there. A possibility however remote of a return of the Great Jedi Grand Master aiding Leia.
     
  12. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005

    Rule of two.

    I think Palpatine and Vader both wanted Luke as their apprentice while eliminating the other.
     
  13. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    I am unfamiliar with the rule of two. Perhaps you can elaborate.
     
  14. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Force Ghost star 4

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    May 23, 2005

    Yoda quote from TPM:

    [​IMG]

    And there's A LOT more EU stuff that goes into the "rule of two". Some of which made it into one of the animated shows so it's now canon.

    Sidious' plan: Recruit Luke then kill Vader
    Vader's plan: Recruit Luke then kill Sidious
     
  15. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

    Registered:
    Jan 8, 2016
    I accept canon. I just have a preference for the trilogy and I place the prequels in another universe having less relevance to the original Star Wars Saga.
     
  16. MidKnighT

    MidKnighT Force Ghost star 4

    Registered:
    May 23, 2005

    Even in the OT each of their plans are clear.

    In ESB Vader wants Luke to join him, overthrow the emperor, and rule the galaxy as father and son.

    In ROTJ after Luke defeats Vader, Palpatine offers for him to "take his father's place at his side".

    It's clear even in the OT that they each (Palpatine and Vader) want Luke as their own apprentice.
     
  17. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Not clear in the ESB Vader was doing as his master had instructed him to do. Collecting him as a prize for the Emperor. Luke was to be a gift to the Emperor.
     
  18. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    Than the Emperor say for example. In style and performance you can imagine a figure as such the way he was portrayed in the ESB being really like this. Somebody behaving like a ruthless orchestrator The Emperor by comparison was never as sinister as Vader. Don't get me wrong Sidious/Palpatine is big bad, plenty of sadism, violence and power craziness unlike Vader. It was just he you can see the more cartoonish side of him. He is not just plain and simple bad but he is the ultimate Mr Evil. An army by his side, his raison d'ĂȘtre is to spread badness and turn Luke evil. Darth Vader is on the other hand much more intimidating.
     
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  19. jakobitis89

    jakobitis89 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 27, 2015
    As believable as a seven foot tall cyborg with magic powers and a sword that cuts anything can ever be, I guess. And to be honest, repeatedly killing off cronies because they fail him is a pretty 80s-Cartoon-baddie move and not all that realistic. Vader is really not much more plausible than 'cunning old man... who can also shoot lightning' nor is he particularly more 'realistic' to me if I am honest. And I like both.
     
  20. CT1138

    CT1138 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 4, 2013
    Palpatine also has one important advantage that Vader does not: Palpatine is tactical. cunning, and methodical. He can make a plan, and iron out any inconvenience that comes his way. He had one weakness: over confidence in his abilities. Vader, simply... isn't those things. He's headstrong, impatient, and blunt. He could never bee the mastermind Palpatine is.
     
  21. Bob the X-Winger

    Bob the X-Winger Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jan 8, 2016
    jakobitis89 Stalin did indeed execute his lieutenants all the time. The show trials was pretty much wiping out all the old leaders of the USSR. So Vader killing his generals and admirals is not that surreal. I'll admit the whole Jedi mind control and using what amounts to laser Samurai sticks is very cartoonish the idea of wearing a black suit is not very silly. Black ops teams wear headgear to disguise their appearance. Every one recognises Grand Moff Tarkin, he is easy to assassinate mind you so is the Emperor where as Vader... Who is he? Where did he come from? He can get away with threatening neutral planets and kidnapping diplomats.

    A conversation between Lando and Darth Vader

    Vader: Perhaps you think you are being treated unfairly?
    Lando: [pauses] No.
    Vader: Good. It would be unfortunate if I have to leave a garrison here.

    Where does he come off telling the head of a giant planetary city to do what he says! The Emperor hides behind elite red bodyguards. I mean does he ever venture out in public to shout obscenities at his subjects something like the Ayatollah in Iran or some other dictatorship. No he does not because we take it as a given he is a very powerful dark sorcerer.
     
  22. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    jakobitis89 wrote

    And to be honest, repeatedly killing off cronies because they fail him is a pretty 80s-Cartoon-baddie move and not all that realistic.

    I have a different view: Throughout ANH he was apparently Tarkin's lackey ("holding Vader's leash") and officers like Admiral Motti even mocked him.

    I can imagine that many Imperial officers just didn't show the respect for him he felt he deserved, Admiral Ozzel being the prime example here. They didn't take him fully serious unless he applied lethal means to get their respect (with the obvious exception being General Veers).

    I'd believe that Ozzel was his first victim, which could explain why Captain Needa really thought Vader might accept an appology. By the end of ESB the looks of the bridge control deck crew suggest he finally got the respect he expected (this scene was mirror-inverted and shown during the Executor opening scene which IMHO suggested they already respected him prior to Ozzel's death but I that may have just been a last minute decision in the editing room)
     
  23. moreorless12

    moreorless12 Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 4, 2016
    In ANH as well your really just starting to see the Empire enter its final stage, prior to that there was at least the pretence of keeping the senate in place and I don't think its unreasonable to say that Vader in that situation probably had to keep a lower profile acting more as a fixer than Palatines second in command, slapping the likes of Motti who might be getting a little too big for their boots down as needed.

    I like the way things were portrayed in ESB though which I think it more realistic for the Empire as a whole. I can buy for example that the Emperor picked out really ruthless bastards like Tarkin and Motti to run his giant genocide machine but the whole Empire made up of people like that? I think the likes of Piett, Ozzel and Veers were much more realistic "cogs in the wheel", certainly not moral men but not monsters either, more careerists willing to do what it took to advance or indeed survive under Vader in a now much more open leadership role.

    I actually think that made the Empire scarier because it showed that it only took 1-2 extreme villians lead to that situation and generally created the idea that the rebels were fighting against the "establishment" a good deal more. The Empire as a giant immovable force that was always going to get you in the end, besides Vader and the Emperor it didn't matter how many Imps you beat more would replace them.
     
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  24. Thedarksideisgreater

    Thedarksideisgreater Jedi Youngling star 1

    Registered:
    Jan 24, 2016
    seeing as thats not cannon, anymore which it should be it sounds ****ing cool just reading it
     
  25. Darth_Pevra

    Darth_Pevra Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 21, 2008
    It is canon. :)