'Vaderism'

Discussion in 'Star Wars Saga In-Depth' started by Darth_Lear, May 27, 2003.

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  1. Darth_Lear Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 21, 2003
    star 3
    I've been considering the scene in TESB after Vader chopped Luke's hand off, where he told Luke that they could overthrow The Emperor and rule the galaxy as father and son. Here's a question: was Vader actually trying to establish a new Sith order here? We all know the history of the Sith and the significance of Darth Bane: that a people who firmly believe, individually, that their purpose is to rule cannot possibly survive due the inevitability of competition/conflict among them. Darth Bane's idea was that this competition could be eliminated by giving every Sith his day, and that the natural way to do this whilst maintaining the passage of knowledge from one generation to the next is the master/apprentice paradigm.

    However, what Bane may have failed to appreciate here is the possible impatience, to rule, of the apprentice. Anakin, in Eps. I and II, was a very impatient character (as a Jedi, not yet as a Sith.) There is also the widespread anticipation that Dooku will also display this impatience (as a fully-fledged Sith) in Ep. III.

    What I am suggesting is that Anakin/Vader, at the time of the OT, and through his own past, and bitter, experiences of impatience (with Obi-Wan) and love (for his mother and Padme) has eventually, after a long time thinking about these matters and where they have got him, come to understand impatience as the crucial weakness of the Bane paradigm and has come the conclusion that it must be nullified, and that love between the master and apprentice could be used to achieve this. His conclusion could have been that this could best be achieved in terms of a bloodline. `Vaderism', anyone?

    DL
  2. First_Stage_Lensman Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Feb 23, 2003
    star 2
    All the way back then GL said that Vader was trying to knock off Palps so he wd. be Dark Lord Of The Sith and lamented having to drop that plot line. He's now made it clear. apart from Maul, a fanatic raised from birth by Sidious/Palps, all Sith seek to depose their Master if they can.
  3. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    F_S_L is correct on both counts.
  4. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    Yeop, Sidious should have had Dooku as an apprentice and raised a new crazy loyal Zabrak.

    If we look at Maul and Sidious, they have the perfect relationship. Sure its because Maul is devoted, but thats what the sith should be.

    (zahl breaks out in a song)

    Well thats what friends are for.....!


  5. Imperial_March Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2002
    star 2
    I think the ruling the galaxy father and son thing would work out like Jango and Boba ie. very well. Darth Vader and Darth Zoon? (son in dutch). Of course the old titles of master and lord would be replaced by father and son (only when the sith refer to themselves).
  6. OLLIEVARR Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 6, 2002
    star 1
    I always kind of thought of Vader's "rule the galaxy" comment as indicative of his longing to be with his son. He realizes his son lives (or possibly that he simply HAS a son) and the "I-am-evil-Vader" identity he has constructed in his mind starts to crack a bit as the a bit of his "I-am-compasionate-Anakin" past (Luke) shows up.

    See, I think (or at least once thought) that when Vader says "rule with me" it's just his messed up, "Vaderized" way of saying "I want you near me, son." It's just that he's been in the Vader business so long that even this deep rooted need to love and be loved by his son (all that's left of his past) comes out as some kind of plan for galactic domination.

    Then, by the time he meets his son again, the crack in his Vader facade has widened to the point that he can clearly voice regret for what he is and that he cannot join his son and be good-- ala "It's too late for me, son." followed by look of longing after Luke leaves (if the mask can be said to hold a look of longing). Of course, when he sees Luke about to die, the crack in his Vader identity breaks wide open.

    Anyway, that's how I always "read" the OT. But, then again, the whole rule of two thing kind of makes all of this potentially unnecessary.
  7. lorn_zahl Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 19, 2002
    star 4
    My thoughts exactly. Every time I hear Vader say "Its to late for me now..." I scream. "No it isn't!! Run off into the woods you idiot!" Well I don't scream it, but thats whats going through my mind even though I know it won't happen. damn....

    Do you think Vader thinks its to late because he's destroyed Obi-Wan?
  8. DarthAttorney Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2000
    star 6
    Not specifially because of Obi-Wan although that's part of it.

    I think by RotJ Vader has come to believe that he's not capable of being any better so he'd rather give in to what he's become than try to change himself back.

    As mentioned above, the imminent death of Luke leaves him with no choice. He has to change back or he'll lose the only thing he cares about all over again.

    OLLIEVARR puts a good spin on it. :)
  9. DamonD Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 22, 2002
    star 6
    You know, thinking about it, Luke's rejection of his offer must've really hurt him.

    He can still serve Palpatine, but there's no affection there. With his own son at his side, Vader could have someone to be proud of. In ROTJ, Vader seems very browbeaten at times, and the direct presence of the Emperor lets us see what the real pecking order in the Empire is.
  10. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    May 30, 2002
    star 6
    Nice analysis, DamonD.
  11. Imperial_March Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 11, 2002
    star 2
    Vader I think took a gamble that started somewhere between anh and esb. He started risking it all to join forces with the son and this explains his obsessive behaviour in esb. The Emperor actually removed Vader from being Head of the Admiralty and just sent him to oversee the ds2 construction, because Vader's behaviour was being a threat to the Empire.
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