CT Vader's motivation for bringing Luke to the Emperor in ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Darth__Lobot, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. Darth__Lobot Jedi Master

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    Dec 29, 2015
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    During my last watching of the OT I got to thinking about Vader and how he brought Luke before the Emperor in ROTJ. I'm not entirely sure what his goal and desired outcome was. In TESB Vader asks Luke to join him so that together they could overthrow the Emperor.

    Did Vader want:

    - Luke to turn to the dark side and join him and the Emperor?
    - Luke to destroy the Emperor (either with or without Vader's help)?
    - Vader to destroy Luke if he refused to turn?

    We all know what ended up happening, but I don't think that was what Vader had planned. What was Vader's goal and motivation for bringing Luke before the Emperor and what did he want to happen?
  2. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    Lucas and Kasdan had discussed this. Basically, he still intends to turn Luke, but he needs Palpatine's help since he failed at Bespin. He just cannot verbalize it anymore since he's around Palpatine. But his goals are unchanged. He still intends to turn Luke, train him and then they'd gang up on Palpatine.
  3. MrMojoRisin Jedi Master

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    His master told him to and he obeyed?
  4. Darth__Lobot Jedi Master

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    Interesting! I'll have to give that a google. That was my suspicion, but I also realize that my interpretation isn't the only one. I think it's nice that they left that as something implied rather than explicit.
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  5. Bazinga'd Porg Overlord of the WNU, CT, and Saga Forums

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    That sounds pretty explicit.

  6. Darth__Lobot Jedi Master

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    That's TESB - Vader has changed his tune when you watch his exchange with Luke on Endor in ROTJ
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  7. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

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    In TESB, but what Lobot was wondering is if Vader had changed his mind in ROTJ. He wasn't certain if his goals had changed or not, since Vader merely goes on his way without repeating his earlier intentions.
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  8. Bazinga'd Porg Overlord of the WNU, CT, and Saga Forums

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    Thanks for clarifying that. In ROTJ, I can't remember if Vader and Luke and Vader were alone after Vader dismissed the Commander who brought Luke to him on Endor.

    If they weren't, then that would explain why Vader does not repeat his intentions.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
  9. Darth__Lobot Jedi Master

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    Dec 29, 2015
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    They were alone - from the script (which I think matches the film):

    VADER The Emperor has been expecting you.

    LUKE I know, father.

    VADER So, you have accepted the truth.

    LURE I've accepted the truth that you were once Anakin Skywalker, my father.

    VADER (turning to face him)
    That name no longer has any meaning for me.

    LUKE It is the name of your true self. You've only forgotten. I know there
    is good in you. The Emperor hasn't driven it from you fully. That is
    why you couldn't destroy me. That's why you won't bring me to your
    Emperor now.

    Vader looks down from Luke to the lightsaber in his own black- gloved
    hand. He seems to ponder Luke's words.

    VADER (indicating lightsaber)
    I see you have constructed a new lightsaber.

    Vader ignites the lightsaber and holds it to examine its humming,
    brilliant blade.

    VADER Your skills are complete. Indeed, you are powerful, as the Emperor has

    They stand for a moment, the Vader extinguishes the lightsaber.

    LUKE Come with me.

    VADER Obi-Wan once thought as you do.

    Luke steps close to Vader, then stops. Vader is still.

    VADER You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master.

    LUKE I will not turn...and you'll be forced to kill me.

    VADER If that is your destiny.

    LUKE Search your feelings, father. You can't do this. I feel the conflict
    within you. Let go
    of your hate.

    VADER It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature
    of the Force. He is
    your master now.

    Vader signals to some distant stormtroopers. He and Luke stand staring
    at one another for a long moment.

    LUKE Then my father is truly dead.
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  10. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

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    Pretty much:

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  11. Darth__Lobot Jedi Master

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    Yeah so Vader really seemed to change his tune from TESB... not more talk of overthrowing the emperor
  12. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

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    Well, Vader was hoping to recruit Luke to overtake the Emperor....but Luke doesn't seem to be going along. Vader has convinced himself that he can't do it without Luke's help.

    Ironically, Vader and Palpatine get the Prophecy wrong as well. They both believe Luke will "Destroy the Sith" in a full fight....not realizing that the danger Luke poses is that he will turn Vader back to the Light Side, and enable him to take out Palpatine - something he was always capable of, but was scared to do so because of the danger to himself. He would never risk his own life to take out the Emperor, because he sees no reward in that. What he ends up doing is risking his life to save his son instead. That was the help that Luke needed to provide to Vader...to bring back his humanity.

    Palpatine was so engrossed in his own plans and arrogrance, that he didn't consider, or ignored, the possibility that Luke could ultimately turn his father back to the Light Side.
    Last edited by MeBeJedi, Apr 21, 2017
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  13. Darth Formidious Jedi Knight

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    Dec 19, 2015
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    I find it hilarious how Vader and Luke would try and defeat the Emperor... even with sufficient training, both father and Son were no match for the Emperor in a head to head duel.

    "He could destroy us"- Palpatine, at the end of RotJ, this has a whole new meaning. Both Sith were destroyed through the prophecy and the light emerging from a sea of darkness.
  14. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Jedi Knight

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    Mar 13, 2014
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    This is a great questions because when Anakin was in Luke's position - Anakin cut off Dooku's head. So Vader knows what is about to happen here. Of course I don't really understand what Dooku's motivations were either at the start of ROTS. And Anakin thought the Emperor was the good guy. Luke knows he is bad at this point.

    Maybe Vader really must obey his master when he this close to him. Far away on Bespin Vader maybe had more wiggle room. It's pretty clear Vader was toying with Luke for the first part of the fight on Bespin. As soon as Luke put any real attack Vader tossed him out a window. The next time Luke got a good hit in Vader cut off his hand.

    But wasn't the original plan in Empire to freeze Luke in Carbonite and take him to the Emperor? Or maybe that was just Vader talking?

    Dooku tried to recruit Obi-Wan on Geonosis, but doesn't try again above Coruscant.

    If I had two questions to ask George Lucas this would be the second one I'd ask him.
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  15. Samuel Vimes Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 4, 2012
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    I quite agree,

    In the past I have talked about a theory of mine, that Palpatine has some hold over Vader.
    That he can "command" Vader and Vader has no choice but to obey.
    This power is dependent on distance so when Vader is further away, he can act with more freedom.

    So in ESB, he hopes to turn Luke and together they can take on the Emperor. With both of them, Palpatine will not be able to command both of them and they can kill him.

    In RotJ, Vader seems changed, more resigned to his fate. This could be because Palpatine is close by and has him by his leash.
    On Endor, I think Vader knows how this will play out. Either Luke refuses to fight or turn, in which case Vader will kill him. Or Luke gets angry enough to fight, then Vader and he will fight until one kills the other. Whoever is left alive will be Palpatine's new slave.
    I doubt Vader is thrilled with either option as he will die or be forced to kill his son.
    But he goes along with it because he thinks he has no choice, that he must obey Palpatine.

    Good question about ESB and the freezing.
    Was that a serious plan for Vader?
    He made quite a bit of effort with it so that suggest yes.
    But when he pushes Luke down, he says "All too easy". So he seemed a bit disappointed that Luke was this weak. And if he really wants to overthrow Palpatine, he needs a strong Luke not a weak one.

    So what would have happened if he froze Luke?
    Hand him over to the emperor?
    That could be bad. If Luke gets stronger to the point that Palpatine wants to replace Vader with Luke, then it could mean his death.
    If Luke proves too weak or won't turn, then he dies and Vader keeps on like before.
    Either way, Vader has nothing to gain and plenty to loose.

    It is possible that it was all a show for the other imperials, that they could report to Palpatine if Vader acted out of line. So the freezing was never really on the table.
    Or that he froze him but served some bs story to Palpatine that Luke died in the process and he thaws him out and trains him himself.
    That has the obvious risk that Palpatine will either sense he is lying or sense that Luke is alive.

    RE: Dooku in RotS.
    Yes his motivation to fight Obi-Wan and Anakin are not very clear.
    He knows the rule of two so he would know that if Palpatine has some plan to turn Anakin, it can only end badly for him. And his surprise at the end made him seem quite dimwitted.
    If the stated goal is not to turn Anakin then he would wonder why they are bothering with this.
    He gets Palpatine, then just sits over Coruscant, getting pounded, waiting for a pointless fight.
    If their ship is destroyed, he dies.
    But he was most likely just obeying orders and like Vader, he has no option to refuse.

    If Dooku had been smart and been interested to serve his own ends, he could have destroyed the ship that brought Palpatine up from the surface. Then blasted Coruscant good, destroying the senate and Jedi temple. Then left.
    This would make the republic essentially leaderless and thus much weaker and he moves from Mr. Two to Mr. One in the sith order.

    Bye for now.
    Blackboard Monitor
    Last edited by Samuel Vimes, Apr 21, 2017
  16. darth-sinister Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2001
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    "Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.

    Basically, it was going to be like it was when he (Dooku) was working with Sidious and Maul before the Naboo blockade and later when Ventress worked with the both of them during the war.

    Except both Sith believed that Luke was powerful enough that with completed training, he could do so. Lucas even states that Anakin and by extension Luke could beat him.

    "Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful, but he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no."

    --George Lucas, “Star Wars: The Last Battle,” Vanity Fair, 2005.

    "At this point, Vader’s plan really, now that he knows he’s his son, is to convince him to come with him. Join the dark side and together they’re going to overthrow the Emperor, which is the thematic devices used through the whole movies in terms of the Sith, which is Sith Lords are usually no more than two because if there are three, then two of them will gang up on one to try to become the dominate Sith. Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t. Luke is Vader’s hope. His motives at this point are purely evil. He simply wants to continue on what he was doing before which is get rid of the Emperor and make himself Emperor. He only sees his son as a mechanism for the ambition. His mad lust of power."

    --George Lucas, TESB DVD Commentary.

    "And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor -- he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

    --George Lucas, Rolling Stones Interview, 2005.

    "The Emperor wants Luke to kill Vader so that he will have a new young Jedi. Let's face it Vader is half mechanical and he is not half as good as he could be. He is not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become because Anakin ends up in the suit. He is hoping he gets a new better apprentice in Luke. If he kills his father then he would take his place as an apprentice; which actually there is something that in the next film is how Anakin becomes his apprentice. There are a lot of things repeated in these movies. Fathers vs Sons."

    --George Lucas, ROTJ DVD Commentary.

    It was clear in TESB and it was clear in Lucas's rough drafts for ROTJ, that Palpatine truly believed that Luke could kill him if he was fully trained. That he would be no match for a fully trained and realized Luke Skywalker.
  17. Darth__Lobot Jedi Master

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    It's interesting, because in the actual film (ROTJ) we were given the Emperor seems completely un-afraid of Luke and quite confident that he can dispatch him fairly easily.

    Of course this does tie in with the Emperor's supposed main weakness being his overconfidence and arrogance.... and I do like the twist of Luke basically defeating the Emperor by refusing to fight.

    The Emperor's motivation always did seem pretty clear to me.... basically he wanted to trade in his apprentice for a newer model in better condition. It's risky, but then again we come back to overconfidence and arrogance.
  18. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

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    Pretty much..

    LUKE: Your overconfidence is your weakness.

    EMPEROR: Your faith in your friends is yours.

    Turns out Luke was right, and Palps was wrong. Doesn't mean Palps isn't going to give up without a fight though, and he's going to do his best to get into Luke's head. He did set up quite a trap for Luke, though. Without Vader turning, Palps would have won one way or another.

    (That said, they did toy with the scenario that Luke killed Vader, pretended to turn Dark, and then aimed the DS at Palp's planet.)
    Last edited by MeBeJedi, Apr 22, 2017
  19. Martoto77 Jedi Master

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    Aug 6, 2016
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    Vader's objectives did not change. Just his strategy.

    He failed to turn Luke by himself so he is playing along with the Emperor until the right moment.

    I rue the deleted scene of Vader calling Luke to "Join me. It is the only way." It sets up his faux surprise at the Emperor "He will come to me?"
  20. JEDI-RISING Force Ghost

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    Apr 15, 2005
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    i don't think Vader's intentions changed. they do seem confusing on the surface, but we know if anything he had grown more attached to Luke since TESB. His feelings were conflicted, which is why ultimately he wouldn't let darth sidious kill luke.
    As for the two of them not being a match for him, that wasn't true because as we saw when Sidious was busy trying to kill Luke , Vader killed him. Plus Sidious killed his own master in his sleep. The Sith way isn't always to take someone on head-on. Perhaps not even most of the time. Planning and laying a trap is more their way.
  21. MeBeJedi Jedi Grand Master

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    The surprise is real.

    Then you must go to the Sanctuary Moon and
    wait for them.

    VADER (skeptical)
    He will come to me?

    I have foreseen it. His compassion for you
    will be his undoing. He will come to you and
    then you will bring him before me.
  22. Darth Dnej Jedi Knight

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    Apr 27, 2013
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    "You don't know the power of the dark side. I MUST obey my master." Vader was pretty much defeated at this point, and was trying to please Palpatine. That's how I see his motivation for bringing Luke to the Emperor.

    With about 3-5 more years of experience and training, Luke and Vader would likely be strong enough. Palpatine has probably leveled off or is getting slightly weaker in power. Luke can only improve.
  23. Darth Mikey Jedi Knight

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    Sep 7, 2015
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    This, in my opinion, more than anything else. He failed to convert Luke, the Rebels escaped him in TESB, and even going as far back as ANH the Death Star blew up under his watch. He's had a string of failures, and at this point he's ... I don't want to say "defeated", but demoralized perhaps? Fully Sidious' lapdog again. " I MUST obey my Master."
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  24. DealAlterer Jedi Knight

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    Nov 2, 2012
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    The Emperor knew Vader would never let Luke kill him, and he also knew the only way Luke was going to turn was if he took his aggression out on his father.

    Vader's goal was to turn Luke to the dark side not realizing it could only mean his demise.
    Last edited by DealAlterer, Apr 22, 2017
  25. themoth Jedi Master

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    Dec 5, 2015
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    The hold Palpatine had over Vader was ultimately too great. Palpatine asked Vader to bring Luke before him so he did. I also think Vader couldn't show any open disobedience to his master, especially if he still had the fantasy of a coup. Saying "no I won't" would have meant severe problems, especially if Vader wasn't confident of fighting Palpatine and winning. Vader went along with it and probably still had limited hope something unpredictable would happen during the meeting. Which it did of course.

    But bottom line: Thinking about something is one thing. Actually carrying it out is another.