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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Vader's motivation for bringing Luke to the Emperor in ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Darth__Lobot, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    It's not a surprise to Vader. He definitely anticipates Luke seeking him out. The deleted scene shows Vader in the first scene beckoning Luke to join him. So his surprise at the Emperor's suggestion the Luke would come to him and his mansplaination of Luke's compassion for Vader, which he had already felt on Bespin, doesn't make sense unless it's to keep the Emperor overconfident in his own perception and critically underestimating the connection between father and son.

    Vader sensing Luke's arrival before Palpatine is aware of it, and of which he is skeptical, confirms that Vader has the advantage over Sidious in this respect. It is
     
  2. son_of_skywalker03

    son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    His what?
     
  3. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    son_of_skywalker03 The Emperor thinks he is explaining ssomething to Vader he doesn't already know or comprehend.
     
  4. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    And Vader is skeptical of Palpatine's claim as well.

    VADER (skeptical)
    He will come to me?

    The novelization shows this as well:

    "He will come to me?" Vader asked skeptically. This was not what he felt. He
    felt drawn.

    Vader didn't know ahead of time that Luke would come to him.
     
  5. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    No matter what the tie in novel adds, his response in the movie is not one of skepticism. It's one of incredulity, as if the idea never occurred to him even though a scene was also filmed with Vader beckoning Luke to come to him. Why would Vader be unpreprared for the very thing he has been filmed asking for.

    It's also inconsidetent with Vader sensing Luke's arrival when Sidious doesn't.
     
  6. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    Luke already refused to join him in ESB.

    Just because Vader senses Luke doesn't automatically mean Luke will come to him. Luke didn't even want to come on the mission in the first place. Even he didn't know while approaching Endor that he would come to Vader. And when he did come to Vader, it was to act as a diversion from Han's infiltration squad...not to join Vader.

    And deleted scenes are not canon.
     
  7. son_of_skywalker03

    son_of_skywalker03 Force Ghost star 4

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    Dec 7, 2003
    Evidently you and I hear very different things in his question.
     
  8. Slicer87

    Slicer87 Jedi Master star 4

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    Mar 18, 2013

    He doesn't try to turn Obi a second time because he knows its useless.

    3rd option, Sids lied to Dooku, saying it was just a trap to destroy the chosen one. Remember, Sids uses people and disposes of them when done, and Dooku likely does not know of Sid's history of doing this. This would explain why Dooku looked surprised. Then again, anybody would be upset to hear an order for their death. 4th option, similar to ROTJ, Sids and Dooku were trying to pull Anakin to their side to defeat the other, much like how Sids and Vader tried to pull Luke to their side to defeat the odd man. Anytime there are 3 darksiders, two gang up on the third, hence the rule of two. Dooku was surprised and upset that he lost and was going to die which is understandable.

    Palps and Dooku timed their fleets together to cover the CIS sitting there. Remember the Republic fleet is blocking the CIS escape route while the CIS fleet is protecting its flagship. Both Sids and Dooku are not really on the CIS side, its just a disposable tool to them, Dooku just did not know he was included.

    If ragtag rebels can get their hands on a shield generator powerful to protect them from "any" imperial space bombardment, then surely the senate of a galaxy wide Republic would have one as well. If he Dooku just shot down Palps shuttle or whatever, then he would not the bait to lure Anakin to him, nor have an ally in Palps if Anakin lost the duel and deemed less than worthy to become Dooku's apprentice. Similar to why Palps simply just did not kill Vader in ROTJ and told Luke your taking his place. Luke still had to prove himself to both before either would accept him to take on the odd man.
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I should have said mock incredulity. A lot of things in novelisations are not canon either.

    I raised the deleted scene because it was conceived and intended, along with other scenes, to show Vader's ulterior motives and objectives to the emperor's. As was set up in Empire Strikes Back.
     
  10. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002

    But it doesn't count if it's not in the film. Besides, we already know Vader wants Luke to join him....that doesn't mean he expected Luke to join him, though I'm sure he hoped Luke would. Again, Luke refused to do so in ESB, and continued to refuse him in ROTJ.

    In the end, it wasn't Luke joining Vader that saved the day, it was Vader joining Luke, which the novelization hints at:

    "He will come to me?" Vader asked skeptically. This was not what he felt. He
    felt drawn.

    And anything in the novelization not directly contradicted by the films is still canon...and deleted scenes are not. Since the script backs up the novelization, then Vader is surprised by Palp's claim that Luke will come to him in ROTJ.
     
    minnishe likes this.
  11. Darth Mikey

    Darth Mikey Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 7, 2015
    Re : Dooku

    According to the novelization ( yeah, i know it's the novelization, but it's the only insight we get into Dooku's thinking ), Sidious told Tyrannus that if anakin defeated him, Sidious would step in and stop the fight. Having proved himself, Anakin would be the first soldier in a new Sith Army that, once Palpatine became Emperor, would replace the Jedi Order, with Tyrannus as it's General, all being overseen by Sidious. So Dooku believed either way - if he beat Anakin, then he would still be the Sith Apprentice and the War would end soon. If he lost, then Anakin would become the new apprentice, while Dooku would get a promotion and become General of the Imperial Sith Army - that he still had a place with the Sith and by Sidious' side. Of course, Sidious lied all along, but it raises 2 interesting observations for me :

    1) Dooku had no desire to overthrow his Master? Seems that way. The inner dialogue of the novelization indicates Dooku had no interest in becoming the Master, from what I remember.

    2) The Rule of Two. I hardly believe Dooku wasn't aware of it, but was seemingly willing to believe Sidious was going to abandon it. which, of course, was never the plan.
     
  12. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    Is it possible that both Vader and Dooku's motivation was the Emperor will kill them if they don't do what he says. So Dooku doesn't even need to know all the details - he just has to make it happen and be there at the right time.

    darth-sinister wrote

    "Palpatine has told Dooku. 'I have somebody who I think will be a great Sith Lord and I think we can get him to join us. But we need to test him. So we're going to setup a situation where you fight him. If he gets the best of you, then I'll stop the fight and he'll have passed the test. If you get the best of him, then we'll let him go, and we'll let him stew for a few more years until he's ready.' But behind it, obviously, is Palpatine's real intention: If Anakin is good enough, Anakin can kill Dooku and become Palpatine's new apprentice. But he didn't tell Dooku that."

    --George Lucas, The Making Of ROTS; Page 41.


    Basically, it was going to be like it was when he (Dooku) was working with Sidious and Maul before the Naboo blockade and later when Ventress worked with the both of them during the war. "


    I know that's what George Lucas said and what is in the novelisation for RotS but does that answer work for you? I can't see Dooku believing any of it, especially the part where Palpatine would step in if Anakin were winning. That seems to contradict a core tenet of the Sith.

    And we saw what Palpatine ordered Dooku to do about Ventress because was becoming a threat.

    Dooku's reaction when he loses seems to be complete surprise and shock. Maybe that's just because he never expected to lose the fight. It seems more plausible as that that Dooku is told it is a plot to eliminate Anakin the Chosen One and Obi-Wan. But it's such a complicated plan that I still don't like it. Is possible that Dooku had no say in what was going on and no choice but to follow Palpatine's orders?




    @Samuel Vimes wrote

    It is possible that it was all a show for the other imperials, that they could report to Palpatine if Vader acted out of line. So the freezing was never really on the table.
    Or that he froze him but served some bs story to Palpatine that Luke died in the process and he thaws him out and trains him himself.
    That has the obvious risk that Palpatine will either sense he is lying or sense that Luke is alive.


    That makes sense. Maybe Vader would have gone off with Luke similar to what Darth Maul did with Savage Opress. But I never had the feeling Savage could ever overthrow any of the Sith Lords. It's interesting on the Clone Wars that Palpatine takes care of Maul and Savage personally and by himself. Of course he is limited in some ways since the Jedi are still in power with what he can do. But Palpatine doesn't take Dooku with him, or send Dooku with Separatist forces. Maybe Palpatine doesn't want those to get any ideas if they were to meet at that time?

    And where Maul quickly put together an army of crimilas and Mandalorians, Vader could have taken a large part of the Empire's military most likely. But really I don't see Vader so much as directly attackign the Emperor as much as doing something sneaky and unexpected to overthrow him with Luke's help.

    @Martoto77

    I like what you're saying about Vader waiting for the right time. And given time I think that's exactly what he'd do. But Vader has to know only two of the three people in that throne room get out alive. So the only time he has left to get Luke's help is during the duel, but Vader doesn't' even try.
     
  13. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid That's a symptom of his conflict. And it's consistent with the poor judgement he's displayed in the past.
     
  14. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    There's not much more he can do at that point. He can't say anything to Luke because Palps will hear him. As Luke sensed, Vader's torn, and hoping against hope that Luke will change his mind, and stringing Luke along as much as possible. He's only seeing two possibilities - Luke will join me, or I will kill him (and a possible distant third, Luke might kill me.) Vader will not consider taking Palps on without Luke's help because he's convinced that doing so will likely lead to his own death. It's not until he realizes that Luke, his one last chance to free himself from Palps, will be killed, that he finally risks his own life - the saving of which was really the only thing really holding him back.
     
  15. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014

    That's true! Haha. I never thought of Anakin's poor judgment transferring to Darth Vader. Just that Vader had figured gotten rid of the conflict and knew what he was doing, even if it was wrong. Until Return of the Jedi that is - when he is conflicted. All the confident bravado he had in Cloud City is certainly gone by the time he talks to Luke on Endor.



    That makes sense. It's also interesting that Palpatine pretty much puts Vader in the same position that Anakin was with Mace Windu. The big difference is that Palpatine looked like the weak one with Mace. Where here it's Luke.
     
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    But Luke has already correctly perceived that Vader cannot bring himself to destroy his son. The question is what is Vader prepared to do if the Emperor chooses to kill Luke.
     
  17. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014
    So really Vader and the Emperor both fall for Luke's plan... Even if Luke really didn't plan it out so much as follow his own values and do what he thought was right and not wrong.
     
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  18. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    Luke senses the struggle in Vader, but that is not a guarantee. In any event, we'll never know for sure.
     
  19. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    He's confronted with someone that he needs, both politically, so to speak, and emotionally and therefore cannot bring himself to destroy, but who also will not abandon their principles for the ones he's adopted. This disturbs his commitment to those principles.
     
  20. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Arguably. But you could argue Vader's reluctance to destroy him when he refused to turn on Bespin, and the ulterior motives that Vader confessed to him then already lend credibility to Luke's intuition.

    Edit: Sorry for accidentally double posting.
     
  21. Darth Mikey

    Darth Mikey Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 7, 2015
    Exactly. Luke shows Vader that you can resist the Dark Side, and unlike Vader he wasn't afraid of death to keep his morals and principles.
     
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  22. MeBeJedi

    MeBeJedi Force Ghost star 6

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    May 30, 2002
    True, but what makes Vader Palpatine's puppet is his strong sense of preservation, both of his own life as well as his power. At first, Vader sees Luke as a means to an end. Yes, Luke is his son, but a son that can help him achieve his goals of power and control.

    It's not until his love for Luke wins out over his fear of losing power and control that he's finally able to sacrifice himself for his son.

    That said, prior to that point, I do see the possibility that, in his anger, Vader could lash out at Luke and kill him, much like Padme (or, at least, how it should have been with Padme, minus the "losing the will to live" horse-pucky)

    Vader would have hated doing so, and would have regretted it terribly afterwards, but by the end of ROTJ, he has no good options left anyways.
     
  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    And when he was last confronted with such a person and Vader flung himself at him in the name of those principles, it resulted in his life and his potential being almost completely destroyed.
     
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  24. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

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    Mar 13, 2014

    Agreed. I think Vader was only reluctant to kill Luke on Bespin for selfish reasons and not concern or love for his son. Vader wanted to use Luke to defeat the Emperor. And Vader only told Luke he was his Father as a way to lure Luke in. I don't think Vader thought Luke would jump. Even if Anakin could have survived that, Vader didn't think Luke could. All of that impressed Vader. Luke did end up empowering Vader to do what plotted on Bespin. And Luke had him do it for selfless reasons. It had to feel good for Vader.

    The Emperor was so good at taking people's strengths and twisting them to his own uses or turning them into weaknesses against the person. Luke sort of did the same thing with Vader and the Emperor. And with Vader he turned negative things into positive. But you're right -- everything Vader revealed on Bespin is what happened in Jedi, it's just that Luke flipped it all.
     
  25. Darth Mikey

    Darth Mikey Jedi Master star 3

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    Sep 7, 2015
    There was a great moment in the Dark Lord ( now non canon ) where he gestures at what has happened to himself and Sidious, and asks his Master, do we look like we won? And then realizes he should be grateful there's anything left of himself at all. So even as early as a couple weeks after ROTS he began to think his new Sith ideals and principles have already cost him too much.
     
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