CT Vader's motivation for bringing Luke to the Emperor in ROTJ?

I'll come back to this but, categorically, Padme never expresses a desire for Anakin not to try and prevent her death. Ever. So Anakin does not go ignore her expressed will in order to work his own selfish desire. She believes he has that power already and expresses fear that it's getting out of hand.

And it is only attachment to the dying son he wants to claim, and believed he should be by his side in the darkness he feels he is empowered by, and the realisation that he is powerless to achieve this, that prompts him to assess his relationship with the Emperor, and attack him for his son's sake.

It is ludicrous to maintain that Vader begins and ends an objective reappraisal of the pros and cons of selflessness and selfish greed from the moment Luke refused his weapon (which he'd already done earlier) and refused to destroy his father (already did that too, repeatedly), to the moment he cried out and pounced in desperation for the sake of his child.

 

Indeed, the extra "Noooo!" yell as he's attacking the Emperor, doesn't go well with the

"Vader attacked the Emperor out of finally having "achieved Jedi emotional detachment""

theory. He sounds pretty emotional there.

 

Evolutionary science has proved that emotion is necessary to make decisions. It is not as necessary in modern societies as it once was due to the types of decisions we need to make continually evolving. But the main motivation is exactly the same, survival of our species. Specifically our own offspring. If we can identify all others as our offspring too, all the better. If we inadvertently extend that motivation to others, not just our own offspring. That is good too. The Jedi code is intended to make that dilemma redundant.

 

Well, to possibly give weight to the ST, it would seem a bit of tunnel vision to simply dismiss it as selfishness.

I think AotC made it clear Anakin was mostly searching for the galaxy to be made right, but had hoped he didn't have to be the one to do it. Possibly because he knew he wasn't up to the task. By talking about more power, he's at the same time admitting he is lacking.

Qui Gon - Anakin hears about these awesome Jedi Knight that make things right. Here's one now. He'll fix this obvious injustice of slavery. Nope. Well, if not abolishing slavery, at least my mom because she helped them. Nope.

OB1 and the Council - they'll understand my mother is in danger. It would take very little to save her. Nope.

Senate - they'll set things right. Nope.

Chancellor Palpatine - He's a strong leader. He'll fix this. Nope.

Rebel Alliance - They essentially want to bring back a system that I personally know was not the answer. They are the Republic. A bunch of murderers, traitors and thieves my son calls friends. They will just screw it up if they are restored to power.

I might just have to do this myself. I've been preparing for this for decades. With my son, we might be able to pull this off.

 

But she is not concerned that she could die. If she was truly afraid, she would have begged him to do something. She doesn't show any concern and has even forgotten about until he brings it up again, days later. If she was truly concerned, she would have had a different reaction.

That is the story. Vader only starts to reassess things when Luke refuses to kill him, when he is on the verge of turning. That instead of hating him for everything that he's done to him and to his loved ones, Luke still finds it in himself to forgive him. Before then, his conflict is does he want this or does he not. And he keeps saying that he wants this, which is why he takes Luke to Palpatine, why he tells him is pointless to resist and keeps pushing him to fight. He's fighting himself, but he keeps losing to himself. It is only when Luke does the unexpected, that he really starts to reconsider.

 

No she did not tell him that she wanted him not to do anything he feels he must in order to prevent the seemingly certain death, as he'd correctly foresaw in relation to his mother.

Wanting to save his family was the motivation then as it is with saving Luke. He saves himself in the process. "Father, please!" This is to a guy supposedly at least as consumed by the darkside as he was when he had no qualms about murdering defenseless children who sought his protection in the Temple.

Not that it qualifies, but the novelisation describes Vader's first contemplation of the error of his service to the darkside. It's in the hangar bay as Luke's tears fall on his face. Throwing compassion in stark, overpowering relief to the cruel iniquities of his avaricious crimes, of which he now feels unequivocally ashamed.

 

This is a pretty interesting topic! Personally, I have never seen Vader as broken or hopeless in ROTJ: my take on everything that happened there is that Vader was pretty much emotionally dead until Luke came along. Everything he cared about was to preserve the Empire he was eventually going to inherit (or take by force, if the opportunity presented itself) and therefore continue to grow in his own power.

I think he grew pretty powerful indeed, but Palpatine always had this edge, this ability to manipulate him. So when Vader sees the opportunity to take the Emperor down by finding out about Luke, and they talk about it on TESB, they are both lying to each other quite openly: Vader proposes Luke as, perhaps, a possible apprentice (either by ignoring the Rule of Two, or by making him a the new Grand Inquisitor, or something among those lines) knowing that he wanted time to train him in the Dark Side and take Palpatine down; on the other hand, Palpatine knows he can´t deal with two force users as powerful AND fully trained as Vader and Luke, so he will make them duel and see which one he gets to keep around.

So when Vader tries to freeze Luke, he just didn´t care: if he can beat him that easily, then he´s no good for his plans, and the Emperor can kill him and Vader would remain as the very image of loyalty. But, not only Luke is much stronger, but also he won´t be tempted, to the point that I do think the Sith are being honest to each other when they say that only together they can turn him. So Vader plans to use Palpatine to turn Luke and wait for the right moment, but he is far more nervous about the whole thing now that the Emperor is directly involved, knowing that the game itself is now far more dangerous.

So, for me, every time Vader defends the Emperor in the DSII is with this plan in mind, and every time Palpatine himself goads both Luke and Vader during the fight, is with his own plan in mind. One of the things I love about that whole scene, and every scene that works as a backstory to it, is that there is A LOT going on for each side that we are simply not seeing. I sincerely doubt that a Sith Lord, selfish and power hungry beings if there was ever any, is going to meekly set up is own demise just because his/her master ordered: Vader trusted that he could beat Luke, and his plan misfired because his connection to the dark side was weakened; he simply couldn´t bring himself to truly hate his own son...

 

If only the Emperor had shot lightning at Vader instead of Luke.

 

Yeah. Or if Vader had decided earlier in the confrontation to defy Sidious, and then Sidious attacked Vader, would Luke have allowed the dark side to aid him in destroying the Emperor at his father's side? Thus Luke turns and likely Vader survives too.

 

I don't know, the themes and messages seem a bit murky. All Jedi do train and focus to try to become more powerful and skillful in order to try to protect people, especially from dying (although from the actions of bad guys rather than natural causes). It's hard to see why wanting to prevent natural deaths too is wrong, although it obviously shows stubbornness and attachment, the problem is when he would be willing to do anything to do it (which doesn't seem the case at the time of Clones).

Why does she believe that she won't die and/or that Anakin can already save her? And why is she OK with him using his power to help her but not trying to get more? Just faith and optimism or is she sensing that if Anakin tried to become more powerful it would involve dark, unethical actions?

But Obi-Wan and Yoda do want him to confront and defeat Vader and the Emperor so think it's possible for him to fight without anger. Why didn't Luke try that earlier, was he not prepared to from not really having enough training?

 

Yeah, given that Vader only turned against the Emperor at about the last minute it's hard to think he would have done so for any other person even if the circumstances had been the same (the Emperor was torturing a person even though that person had shown mercy to Vader).
Luke, by the end Anakin and the OT seem to have a much more balanced view of attachments than the idea of the PT that strong attachments (edit: other than to the Jedi Order) will probably lead you astray.

 

I think that Luke accepted that, whatever your attachment to people is, he must not allow fear>anger/hate to dominate and control his actions.

In addition. The novelisation describes Vader wondering if he can summon up the power to do anything about what's happening to his son.

 

And that's the problem. He acts emotionally. He thinks that everything is the same way. And he never considers her feelings. The fact that she isn't concerned should have given him pause that he was overreacting.

There's a difference between saving Luke and saving Padme. One is something that he was always capable of achieving, because it didn't require him to be all powerful. The other did. One was a selfless act, one was a selfish act.

It isn't murky. When a Jedi is trained to use the Force correctly, they learn that they must avoid the temptations of the dark side. These temptations are capable of turning good people into tyrants. When a Jedi tries to protect innocents, they wind up having to fight and in fighting, it is very easy to give into negative emotions such as fear, anger and hate. The Jedi must divest themselves of these negative emotions and work on the good side to defeat the bad. This is evident when Vader tells Luke that he must use his anger and hate to defeat him, now that he's learned to control his fear. Likewise, Palpatine tells Luke that he must use his aggressive feelings against Vader and let the hate flow. They're telling Luke that the dark side will give them the power to win at any cost. Luke realizes what is happening and backs off from using his emotions. The point is to not compromise themselves.

When it comes to fighting nature, that's a different matter. You're basically defying the one central tenant of life which is that everything and everyone dies. This is what Yoda tells Anakin and Luke, and what even Anakin finally realizes as he is dying. For a Jedi, that act of defiance comes in wanting to use the Force to stop people from dying. It is a selfish act whose sole motivation is to go against nature.

"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the dark side because the dark side is more powerful. If you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the dark side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."

--George Lucas, AOTC DVD Commentary.

Padme doesn't live her life in fear for her own life, much less for that of her unborn child. She believes that nothing bad will happen because he is optimistic and has strong faith in medical science. But she also accepts that if it is her time to go, then she'll face it head on, but only so long as her child is safe. She is not a selfish person here. When she tells him that he is fine as he is, she is telling him that she loves him for all his faults. For all his strengths and weaknesses. She just wants his love and nothing more.

"In coming back to see Yoda, we have to figure out Luke’s training and the fact that he never finished his training, and that obviously now he’s got a big question he wants answered. There is a point where the hero has to be left alone on his own two feet without anybody there to help him. And you can sort of have him be in a different place or something, but at some point you have to say well now all the props have been taken away, and he has to face the evil monster alone. In this case, the scene establishes that the evil monster is actually his father, and he’s going to have to do it upon his own, and that he’s really not equipped to do it. That he was too impatient, he didn’t finish his studies, and now he’s going to be half trained to face a difficult physical and emotional challenge."

--George Lucas, DVD Commentary, Star Wars: Return of the Jedi, 2004

"Even though at some point Yoda and Ben interfered, I eventually decided that they couldn’t connect physically with what Luke was doing. I felt that one of the major issues in the third film is that Luke is finally on his own and has to fight Vader and the Emperor by himself. If you get a sense that Yoda or Ben is there to help him or to somehow influence him, it diminishes the power of the scene."

--George Lucas, Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays, 1997.

Right, though that falls more under the moral quandary that Vader is in. He doesn't believe that he is worth saving. That he cannot come back from all the horrible things that he has done in his life. But Luke showed great faith in him and unconditional love. So the strength that he is searching for isn't the Force, but himself.

 

Now you're saying that Anakin's just insensitive to Padme's feelings. She categorically did not want Anakin not to want to save her. All she did is try and reassure him.

Vader did not need to be all powerful to destroy Luke. He could not bring himself to do it on Bespin. Luke correctly sensed this and predicted he would not allow it to happen.

 

But she never asks him to do anything and has even forgotten about the whole subject. For someone who should be on his side with this, she's either unconcerned or very flightly.

That's not what I said. I said that Vader wants to be all powerful and in order to achieve that, he must destroy Palpatine and he cannot do it on his own, which is why he wants to turn Luke. He wants that in TESB and in ROTJ. Part of him doesn't want to kill Luke because he is his son, but most of it is because of his own ambition to become Emperor. Luke senses conflict, but Vader is still capable of killing his own son. We see that when he cuts Luke's hand off after being struck on the shoulder and we see it again when he tosses his saber at him.

 

No you said he did what Padme didn't want in spite of here. That's not true. And it's how you defined selfishness.

You specifically said it required Vader to be all powerful to kill Luke but not for Padme.

 

It is reasonable to interpret that altruistic help actually becomes selfishness, much more about you rather than the other person, when it involves methods that the person helped wouldn't approve of.

 

I know what I said. He pursued the course of action that he did because he was doing it for himself, not for her. She never asked him to do anything like that and never checked to see if she was okay with him trying to find a way to save her.

No, I said that Vader's goal in ROTJ is to turn Luke, so that they can kill Palpatine. What I also said was that if Luke didn't fall in line with him, he would kill him. He would kill him, not to be all powerful, but to stop him from killing him and Palpatine. He choked Padme because he was punishing her for her betrayal.

Close. It all depends on your reasons to begin with. Anakin had already decided that he would become the most powerful Jedi ever and would stop the people that he loved from dying. So right when he says that to Padme in the garage, he's already showing signs of what he will do in the future, will be based on his own selfish desires. Martoto contends that it isn't selfish until he pledges himself to the dark side.

 

But your evidence that he's motivated purely by what he wants and in spite of what she wants, which you specifically claimed, is non existent.

Luke already refused to turn, and help him overthrow the Emperor. And he does so again and again. Luke is never going to turn. Needing Luke to overthrow the Emperor is ultimately irrelevant. Vader, as a Sith, cannot allow him to live as an enemy. He must destroy him. But he cannot kill his own son.

And you are forgetting that Vader didn't kill Padme.

 

It does exist.

ANAKIN: "I won't lose you like I lost my mother."

ANAKIN: "I need him to help me save Padme."

ANAKIN: "I cannot live without her."

It's all about him. She tells him that he can protect her as is.

I know that. I've said that. My point is that he will keep trying to turn him because of his greed and attachment. He only stops when Luke spares him and makes him rethink everything.

I didn't say that he killed her. I said that he choked her as a punishment for betraying him. And technically, he did kill her by breaking her heart.

 

That's not evidence of him being selfish. Wanting someone not to die. Wanting not to feel the same anguish and failure of his mother's death again when he is seemingly ept enough to preempt it is not selfish.

You're contradicting yourself now in an attempt to move the goalposts.

 

Anakin:
I'm gonna go help them out.

OB1:
No.
No, they are doing their job
so we can do ours.

---
Palpatine:
Leave him, or we'll never make it.

Anakin:
His fate will be the same as ours.

-----

Anakin:
He's a protocol droid to help Mom.

-----

Anakin:
Mom, you say the biggest problem in this universe is nobody helps each other.

-----

I think they beat us over the head that Anakin's driving motivation was to help others that needed it. Right up until the point that he stopped Mace from killing the defenseless Palpatine. Then Palpatine broke Anakin with a display of unlimited power. He had just made the ultimate sacrifice for somebody that didn't need it.

Selfish? Not quite the right description. I'd say more that he couldn't not help people coupled with the fact that he found little reason to trust people would provide the help if he did not.

 

If someone boldly declares, I'm going to end hunger. I'm going to gain the power to solve the food shortage and ensure that none of us dies of starvation. You would think, that's fantastic. What a great person.

Then they said, I'm going to kill two thirds of the population, of the other countries besides ours. Then you might think they are selfish.

 

Oh yeah. I seem to remember Qui Gon going straight ahead with his strategy to deliver the Queen from Tatooine over her protests. That Qui Gon was only interested in what he wanted. Selfish.