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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

CT Vader's motivation for bringing Luke to the Emperor in ROTJ?

Discussion in 'Classic Trilogy' started by Darth__Lobot, Apr 21, 2017.

  1. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    But that's the thing, he had no idea what was wrong, if anything. He goes with that idea because he's operating from hindsight. That if he was there, if he was stronger, then he could have saved her. He's looking back, not forward.

    And that is the problem. He makes the same equivalency and this results in his going down that dark path, because he has obssessed about this for three years.

    He's fixated on Tatooine during a time where all that mattered was fixing things, racing pods, being with his mother and spending time with Padme, which is where they first met. So for him, he's still stuck on Tatooine. Just as he is stuck on Naboo, a world where he was a hero, but also with Padme.

    Partially. Mostly he's missing that part of his life which to him was better in certain respects than the world that exists now. He's idealized a particular part of his life and goes back to it in his mind.

    What mattered to Anakin before he decides to save Luke, was power. He wanted the power to rule the galaxy and he wanted to be all powerful. That's why he keeps trying to turn Luke in ROTJ. He's still motivated by greed. He's still selfish. He just finally stops being selfish once Luke has shown him the better path. I didn't say that Luke didn't matter to him.

    They were normal for normal kids. Not for a Jedi who has to be detached to people. They believed that he could adapt and learn to let go. Just as Yoda and Obi-wan believe that Luke can do the same thing when the time comes for him.

    Right and they still cannot stop death. Only delay it. What Anakin wanted went beyond medical science.

    Luke was wrong to leave to go to Bespin, because he went impulsively and emotionally. When he went to Tatooine, he acted more calmly and rationally. He forged a plan to rescue Han and tried to negotiate his release and tried to use non violent means. And when that failed, then he went into battle. It wasn't just the act of saving his friend, but acting compassionately towards a person. He didn't let his emotions blind him as they were the year before. He also looked at the bigger picture which is that the Alliance needs him.

    With his father, he thinks that killing the Sith is the only way to stop his loved ones from dying. He thinks emotionally, not logically. Once he does, then yes, he realizes that it won't do him any good.

    Anakin didn't say that he hated Dooku, either. But he wanted revenge. He had hate in his heart enough to want him dead. You don't have to make an open declaration of hate to hate someone. Anakin only says that he hated the Tuskens after finding his mother beaten to death and after he killed them. Luke hates Vader because he killed his father and he killed Obi-wan. That's why he reacted as he did in the tree cave when he saw Vader. That's why he tries to fight him on Cloud City. And it what the Sith use to spark his emotions.

    Letting go of his father means letting go of these emotions that hurt him. The idealization of his father. The fear of losing him. The fear of becoming the worst part of him.The anger and hate. He lets go of all of that. When he says that about wanting to help him, he's reminding Luke of what Yoda says, that death is inevitable now. And that he has to accept that, as well as saying that he saved his soul.

    He wasn't rejected by Yoda. And Yoda did care for him as we've come to see. Their talk in ROTS wasn't their first one. That's not what drives him. It is a desire to keep people in his life that he cares for. As Obi-wan tells Yoda and Mace, Anakin is loyal to people over principles and ideals. This is his fatal flaw. This is why he argues about spying on Palpatine and why he tries to save so many that mean so much to him. It is why he turns to the dark side, because he cannot separate between the two.

    And he had proper training other than being trained for birth. Obi-wan gave him the same lessons that Yoda did for him and the other Younglings. And he did his best to impart the same type of wisdom that Qui-gon imparted to him. Besides, Luke had even less proper training and he turned out well. No, the real flaw is that Darth Sidious was undermining Obi-wan's efforts from the beginning.

    He was fearful and jealous early on when Rush first appeared. It worsened a year later, when this happened...

    [​IMG]

    So when he loses it at the end of the war and chokes her, it is very much an attachment issue as much as it is anger and hate. A fear of losing her and a jealousy that others matter to her. That's why he is upset when he senses Obi-wan was in her apartment and she confirms that he was there. Not that he thinks Padme and Obi-wan were having an affair, or even that he knows. But that they were together in a way that bothered him.

    If he did nothing to save Luke, it would be no one's fault than his own. If he had tried, odds are, he would be dead along with Luke.

    The actions wouldn't be different. If he truly believes that saving Luke was more important than his own desires and acts as a Jedi should, then knowing or not knowing doesn't matter. What matters is doing the right thing.

    Obi-wan tells Anakin that he will be expelled from the Jedi Order, if he went back for Padme instead of pursuing Dooku. He was still subject to expulsion regardless of his alleged status. Mace doesn't believe that he is the Chosen One and even Yoda begins to doubt it.
     
  2. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    Anakin was rejected by Yoda. It's in TPM when he rejects him and Qui Gon is forced to make him his Padawan immediately. The key part of the training to let go of emotions, such as the one a young child has for the parent they can no longer be with, is missing. On the commentary, Lucas points this out as the critical error in Anakin's development. Ignore that if you want to.

    You don't seem to get it and you've sailed right past the point being made. I'm not talking about whether Anakin would or wouldn't face expulsion.

    Anakin is the chosen one. After Naboo, no doubts are expressed about this until very, very late on. Being told he is the chosen one means that Anakin is supposed to be a Jedi (otherwise why did the council agree for him to become one?) A Jedi powerful enough to destroy the Sith. Therefore the most powerful Jedi. That could all go down the toilet and a lot of people would be very disappointed if Anakin told them he had a pregnant wife. In spite of the selfish greed that supposedly defines everything Anakin wants, does or says, he still wants approval and to impress the rest of the Jedi.
     
  3. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    It's not a personal rejection, but a refusal to allow his training. But Yoda isn't the one who does the rejecting, but Mace. He's the one that says no and Yoda says that it is impossible to take on a second Padawan.


    We only see Mace say, "If the prophecy is true" in AOTC. Which really isn't that late and is probably not the first time it is said among the Council members. Then it is expressed by Qui-gon to Obi-wan on Mortis. And then again on Coruscant when Yoda is getting ready to leave for Kashyyyk. And we also know that Anakin doesn't believe that he is the Chosen One and that it is a myth, which is he says while on Mortis.

    THE FATHER: "When news had reached me that the Chosen One had been found, I needed to see for myself."

    ANAKIN: "The Chosen One is a myth."

    He does think that he should be the most powerful Jedi ever, not because he is or isn't the Chosen One, but because Palpatine has been fostering that notion for thirteen years. He thinks that he should be all powerful because things came easier to him at first and he became arrogant as a result. Anakin having a physical relationship wouldn't be a problem, but getting married and then starting a family would. He had a choice to make in AOTC, stay and lie, or leave and be happy. He even questions himself on his decision to stay.
     
  4. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I see you are just ignoring the oft quoted commentary where Lucas points out that Anakin did not receive standard initial training from Yoda necessary to let go of attachments then.

    See that's where you go fundamentally wrong in critiquing the story (or not critiquing it, would be more appropriate). The story is not what had to have happened. It is what the writer wanted to happen.

    It is not a tragedy if the Jedi always had to be wiped out. The prophecy makes no allusion to that. If there was something in the prophecy that should have been interpreted as the virtual destruction of the Jedi then that might make a lick of sense. But since you see no relevance in the number of surviving Jedi to the concept of "balance", that interpretation is out of the question.

    Using stuff that's not in the movies to explain the lack of credible motivation provided in the movies is proof that the movies don't stand on their own.
     
  5. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    I'm not ignoring that. Obi-wan gave the same basic training principles that was given to him. He just had the disadvantage of training an older Jedi than Yoda. That's why Lucas said that if he had been trained the same way that the other Jedi were, he wouldn't have a strong attachment.

    I never said that the Jedi had to be wiped out. I've always said that. Where in my posts did I say that? I'm just saying that Anakin made a lot of bad choices before making the right choice. He could have stopped Palpatine before he finally did.


    The point is that Anakin's motivations aren't because of his destined status, but Palpatine's manipulations. That has always been this way before TCW came about.
     
  6. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    So now you're saying that Lucas is wrong about Yoda withholding training meaning that Anakin might have been equipped to let go of his mother and so in.

    If Mace had destroyed the Sith, Palpatine, then the prophecy would not have been correct. It required Anakin to turn to the darkside in order tfor him to prevent that happening and to ensure that the prophecy of the chosen one, Anakin, destroying the Sith at a later time. And then Anakin massacres the Jedi to prevent them coming and killing both of them.

    So it was necessary for the Jedi to be destroyed in order for the prophecy to be correct. It needed Anakin to want to gain Palpatine's power before he destroyed him himself.

    If Windu had not been prevented from doing it by Anakin, he would have brought balance to the force.
     
  7. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    I don't remember GL stating anywhere that it was required that the Jedi needed to be destroyed and Anakin turning to the darkside for the prophecy to be fulfilled, not even close. The tragedy was that Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy in RotS, right there but he chose not to because of his own selfishness to keep Padme alive at all costs, even if it meant killing people to do so.
     
  8. CLee

    CLee Jedi Knight star 3

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    Jun 18, 2017
    Maybe it's a prophecy not in that it had to be or was supposed to be Anakin that destroyed Palpatine, someone else like Mace could have (and, if Anakin didn't choose badly, would have) even without being "the Chosen One" (one so high in midichlorians), but that he was the one who did. OTOH maybe Anakin actually was the only one that could even if it wasn't clear that he would (if Anakin wasn't involved, Palpatine would have defeated Mace).
     
  9. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    But it still needed Anakin to prevent Windu in the end. Windu was in the midst of delivering the fatal blow, no matter the preamble.
     
  10. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    You're assuming that the Jedi have to die in order for there to be balance, when Lucas has never said so. He always said it was the Sith that needed to be destroyed, not the Jedi and the Sith. In the commentary for all six films, in all interviews and all behind the scenes discussions, he never intimates that the Jedi need to go.
     
  11. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    I'm not assuming it. The circumstances necessary for the prophecy to have come true have to include Mace not killing Palpatine which required Anakin being seduced by the darkside which meant the Jedi had to be destroyed.

    Lucas says it was inevitable. It's not my fault he doesn't categorically refute that the Jedi needed to die and that you can't perceive the basic logic of what would have happened if Anakin hadn't been sufficiently seduced by the darkside to protect Palpatine from Mace.
     
  12. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    Yoda: Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future. "The Empire Strikes Back"

    The Father: And for this, you join him? Your destiny can change just as quickly as the love in one's heart can fade. Nothing is set in stone. "Star Wars: Clone Wars: Ghosts of Mortis (#3.17)"

    The Son: The future, by its nature, can be changed. "Star Wars: Clone Wars: Ghosts of Mortis (#3.17)"

    The notion of Anakin's fall being inevitable is not supported in either the movies or the TV series. It kinda diminishes the notion of choices because it implies that no matter what he does he will turn evil instead of him voluntarily choosing to follow that path because he wanted to satisfy how own selfish desires. The whole point is that Anakin could have fulfilled the prophecy in RotS, he didn't have to cut Windu's hand to do that but since he did he felt he had no other choice but to follow Sidious because he feels the Jedi will never forgive him for betraying them.
     
  13. woj101

    woj101 Jedi Grand Master star 2

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    Feb 19, 2000
    Forgive me, I haven't followed the whole thread, just read the OP and first page and wanted to share my theory. Apologies if someone else has already put forward similar.

    The line I've found myself dwelling on the most is when Vader states "I MUST obey my master". Why must he? The idea I can't shake is that Vader's survival physically depends on Sidious, through the Force. The reason Vader know's he is dying at the end of RotJ is because Sidious is no longer alive, thus is unable to sustain him. Losing a hand and then picking up Sidious to throw him down the shaft should not have been enough to kill him.

    So Sidious owns Vader and Vader has no option but to comply with Sidious' command. He only diverts from that path when faced with Luke's impending death at Sidious' hands and chooses to sacrifice himself to save Luke. That is the one moment when Sidious has left himself exposed to Vader's attack.

    I can't really explain the change in Vader's attitude towards Sidious between TESB and RotJ, other than to suggest either that Vader didn't realise how dependent he was on Sidious until after TESB; or that Lucas was just a bit inconsistent about it, which isn't unfathomable.
     
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  14. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The three quotes you've provided either aren't in the films or don't refer to the prophecy.

    Yoda's response to Anakin telling him that he has premonition of someone's agonising death is "Don't mourn them" "Don't miss them". He's tacitly confirming that the future Anakin sees cannot be changed and to just take it on the chin and be happy about it.

    Being seduced by the idea that the future he sees, and Yoda confirms cannot be changed, does not need to mean the end for Padme. That's what guides Anakin's actions.

    There is immediate sorrow and regret at the death of Windu, whom Palpatine killed, not Anakin. Then there is "Tell me what to do." followed by a pep talk from Palpatine and an agreement to kill his enemies for him.

    Anakin chooses to make the Jedi his enemies because of what he wants Palpatine to do for him. Not because of what they'll do to him for what he's done. Because all he did was make a rash decision that ultimately worked in Sidious's favour. Anakin had not joined the Sith until he agreed to be the enemy of Palaptine's enemy.


    It's Lucas that says that these things were "inevitable" whenever the credibility or plausibility of Anakin's or the Jedi's decisions are scrutinised.

    But he also calls it tragic when he points out the mistakes made regarding Anakin from the moment he's identified as the possible chosen one. (e.g. fast tracking Anakin to be a padawan to a newly knighted Jedi, and to not receive necessary youngling training from Yoda in spite of them detecting the kind of fear that is supposed to be trained out of a youngling by that point)

    The inevitability seems to come from the tragic flaws in the Jedi hierarchy, both collectively and individually. But when you try to assimilate that into some sort of recognizably compelling and tragic irony a) it makes a mockery of the supposed wisdom and intuition that the Jedi at their peak are supposed to have b) people take any sort of reproach of the Jedi as a reproach of Lucas's intent or of Lucas in general. And the defend the Jedi's mistakes as "the right mistakes", and the Jedi in general as if they were a proxy for Lucas.

    I don't like the idea of Anakin turning or the end of the Jedi being inevitable. But the storyline that's presented to us, and the supposed unimpeachability of the Jedi and their handling of Anakin makes it seem inevitable (plus the fact that Vader had destroyed the Sith in episode VI way before the prophecy was even conceived).

    From a 40 year old's point of view - The knowledge of how the prophecy would wind up being fulfilled and the inexcorable, plodding march toward the inevitability of Anakin's fall in the storyline, without any stimulating tension about if and how it might have been otherwise at any, exacerbated that feeling.

    Potential moments of realisation and clarity from Anakin, Obi-Wan and the rest but with tragically ironic mishaps or misconceptions etc that prevent them doing what they ought to have sensed was right, or encouraged them to get the wrong impression about things might have made a more convincing turn.

    Instead we get a Jedi order that seems to want to be seen to control the narrative while condemning that concept as not the Jedi way. This meant that I couldn't generate any sympathy for the Jedi as an institution.
     
  15. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001
    No, it doesn't. The only circumstances necessary for the prophecy to come to pass is that Anakin has a moment where he can stop Sidious and either chooses to do so, or chooses not to. If he doesn't, then it can only be delayed so long as he lives. That's why choice is important in the Saga.


    He said that it was inevitable in regards to the pay off of the Clonetroopers threat being revealed. We've known since seeing them on Kamino and hearing their origin and finding out for ourselves, that there was a connection to the Sith. We know that the Jedi were killed. That was inevitable since the OT begins with two Jedi. The how and why of it was never revealed until know. It wasn't because of the prophecy.

    Yoda refers to natural death which is inevitable. When he tells him that, he is not saying be happy about it. He's telling him to not live in a state of fear and regret. Do not cling to that person tightly. Find solace, not sorrow. Yoda also warned him to be careful when sensing the future.

    He's not seduced by the future. He's seduced by his own desire to stop death which happened long before he saw her death.

    Anakin does regret Mace's demise and blames himself.

    ANAKIN: "WHAT HAVE I DONE?!"

    He became that enemy when he caused Mace's death, before pledging himself to Palpatine. Therefore in that moment, they are his enemy. They will kill him for what he has done, as surely as they will kill Palpatine.

    The inevitability isn't because of how the Jedi handled Anakin, but with regards to the Clonetroopers.

    "The telling of this story of Anakin going into the Jedi temple and the other Jedi getting killed through the order 66 of the clones is just done as one of those kind of inevitable pay offs in terms of getting rid of everybody, the Emperor is getting rid of all his enemies, but there’s a certain inevitability of it all and a sadness to it. I was always worried in Episode II that I was giving away too much in terms of people asking questions about where did the clones really come from. If you go back they mention the fact that Lord Tyranus and Count Dooku are the same person and that Darth Tyranus is the one that started the clones so if your paying attention its very easy to figure out what’s going to happen to the clones, if they will be the ones that will betray everybody. Tough to put in things like that without giving everything away."

    --George Lucas, ROTS DVD Commentary.
     
  16. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    So Anakin turning to the darkside was neither inevitable nor necessary but the fall of the Jedi was because of the clone troopers.

    Well that explains the whole saga of the Jedi and Anakin then. Pointless.
     
  17. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    Part of the tragedy of that Anakin could have prevented that from happening but instead he chose to join the Sith.
     
  18. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    When would Anakin have prevented the clone troopers from happening? Only by killing or allowing Palpatine to have been destroyed.

    I think Palpatine had to have been extremely confident that Anakin would not have allowed him to be killed so that he could execute order 66.

    It's interesting that Palpatine encourages Anakin to kill Dooku, and he does it, but instantly regrets it and acknowledges that the Jedi don't do that. Palpatine's response is that it was the pragmatic thing to do.

    Later on, when given the opportunity to kill Palpatine by Palpatine, he passes it up and dutifully informs his superior who acknowledges that he has done the right thing and that it demonstrates the trust between the two of them that Anakin must now accept while Mace and his posse go "get to the bottom of this" as Anakin suggested.

    But then he turns up to see Mace about to kill Palpatine. It's not hard to see how Anakin begins to sense that the Jedi council are a "do as we say, not as we do" type hierarchy.
     
  19. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    I was more thinking about preventing the activation of order 66. If he did destroy Palpatine in that moment then balance to the Force would have been restored.
    He also refused to leave Obi-Wan behind despite Palpatine's insistence.
    Palpatine was testing Anakin to see if he was worthy of becoming his apprentice in both occasions so I don't think he was 100% sure Anakin would do it. If Dooku had killed Anakin, then it means that he was unworthy to be his apprentice and he would look for another potential apprentice.
     
  20. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    It seems an exceptionally high risk, to wait and see if Anakin would allow him to be killed or not before putting order 66 into motion.

    Was it even necessary risk?

    I'm not buying that it needed Anakin to witness Mace's willingness to destroy the Sith in order for him to subscribe to the notion that the Jedi wanted to take over the galaxy or that the Jedi were evil.

    But were way OT now.

    I am not buying that Vader ponders his relationship with seflessness. His first act when he realises that Luke will not kill either of them, is to crawl to his Master's side. He accepts that he cannot turn Luke, and that the Emperor doesn't have that power either. In the moment he realises that Luke will be tortured to death, which he does not want in any way, if it is not in his power to prevent it
     
  21. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    Palpatine did the same thing in RotJ where he tested Luke. He wanted to test him to see if he's worthy of being his apprentice by letting Vader and Luke fight to determine who will be his apprentice and if Luke fails that test then so be it. He wanted to look defenseless because he needed Luke to use his anger and hatred to strike him down, both him and Vader used Luke's attachment to his friends and sister to lure him toward the darkside, and they almost succeeded until Luke saw the monster he was starting to become and threw away his lightsaber. Him sparring Vader's life is a living proof that he can reject the temptation of the darkside (Luke rejected it twice), that he didn't have to kill Dooku or Mace. Luke's compassion to him when everyone else gave up on him is what enabled him to destroy the Sith and fulfill the prophecy thus finally bringing balance to the Force.
     
  22. darth-sinister

    darth-sinister Manager Emeritus star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Jun 28, 2001

    No, it just means that Palpatine didn't need Anakin to pull off this plan. The plan wasn't contingent on him turning and becoming his Apprentice. It was just one of life's little bonuses.

    Just as he was confident that he wouldn't be killed during the Battle of Coruscant. Or that he wouldn't be killed by Vader later on. Or that Vader would block Luke's attack on him. It's why Luke tells him that overconfidence is his weakness.

    That's the point. Palpatine started creating a scenario in Anakin's head in order to justify the boy's willingness to become a Sith, by showing that they're no different from each other.

    That's why he put the notion into his head earlier and then when he senses the boy's arrival, he switches tactics and creates a scenario similar to the Dooku situation.
    He's pondering why Luke would refuse to turn when he did. It starts to occur to him how strong Luke is compared to him. Strong enough to reject the dark side and spare his life. And then he starts to wonder why would he believe in him enough to risk his own life. Why would he want to spare him despite knowing what he had done. And then he remembers his confrontations with Dooku and sees the similarities between them. That's when he starts to realize his own failures and it is then that he realizes what kind of person Luke is and why he should save him.
     
  23. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    You're confusing what Palpatine wanted with what makes any plausible sense.
     
  24. Ancient Whills

    Ancient Whills Force Ghost star 6

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    Jun 12, 2011
    And what does make sense?
     
  25. Martoto77

    Martoto77 Jedi Master star 5

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    Aug 6, 2016
    The person with all the muscle using it for their own ends unless it's shown to be physically impossible or uncharacteristic for them to take that initiative. Particularly if the person with the muscle is Sith. Who wants to rule, not to serve.

    I get that Lucas wanted to have the senate ask for the clones to be used and ask for their own downfall.

    But Dooku does not want that. He just wants to force reform of the Senate and he can do that in a far less convoluted way than the plan that the person who caused the corruption that turned him into a separatist has hatched.

    Did Dooku even bother to ask Sidious, "These senators you've corrupted and who have created the conditions for you to become chancellor. Wouldn't it be much easier and quicker to get these same corrupt senators to also vote you more and more powers, including forming an army, changing the constitution etc?

    If they are corrupt then why do you need a war to convince them? Why don't I just form the clone army while appeasing these potential separatists so that they don't form such a huge droid army that needs to be fought? The clones will have an easier time becoming the dominant force across the galaxy and be well placed to dispose of the Jedi. It would prove that the clones are a legitimate deterrent and it would make it easier to convince the galaxy that the Jedi wanted to make civil war against the senate if there isn't a civil war happening already with the Jedi on the senate's side.

    (Aside) Why am I even asking him? It's me that's going to do all the legwork and pony up to the Kaminoans while this guy, whoever he is, has his hands completely clean. Why don't I just nod and smile and get on with my own plan which is to reform the senate? Not make them look like mugs for thirteen years before doing it for someone else's benefit"