CT Vader's motivation for bringing Luke to the Emperor in ROTJ?

Dooku expected that Anakin would win. That's not what surprises him. It was the deception. That he was expendable. That's why Lucas originally scripted Dooku's response of, "But you promised me immunity." and Palpatine's, "I lied." As to Ventress, she was becoming a threat. Dooku didn't think he was a threat to Palpatine and if anyone would be, it would be Anakin. He had come to think too highly of himself. Palpatine, being the Dark Lord, can bend the rules as he pleases and Dooku believed him.

Palpatine went after Maul and Savage because he was going to interfere with his plans by using Death Watch and Black Sun. He didn't include Dooku because he didn't need his help. He was only included later to help with Mother Talzin who was a greater threat than Maul and Savage. While Vader might have Imperials loyal to him or willing to join him, he needed Luke to reach Palpatine. The Inquisitors, especially the Grand Inquisitor, were not enough. Vader was smart enough to not go to war with Palpatine, but to rely on a smaller and more personal attack.

 

darth-sinister - To me it makes Dooku oblivious to what was going on in a way a Sith Lord could not be. So you like the explanation and find it plausible? It just doesn't ring true for me. These guys are too slippery, smart, and scheming. A Sith Lord doesn't trust anyone. The rule of two is set up so the apprentice is a threat to the master. Dooku wanted to replace Palpatine someday because he is a Sith Apprentice. And that means he is a treat to Palpatine - and someday aspires to act on that threat.

So I'm asking you personally how you like this answer and if it's satisfyingly believable reason and motivation for Dooku?

 

In real life...maybe not...but it's the rules that have been set up for the characters in the movie, as the setup for the scenario in ROTJ. That said, I don't think Dooku believed Anakin would win. He's already defeated him and Ben once before.

 

Yeah that explanation makes Dooku out to be totally clueless and naive.

 

No, he just realized that the plan Palpatine had told him about wasn't the plan Palpatine actually intended to carry out.

Dooku, cringing, shrinking with dread, still finds some hope in his heart that he is wrong, that Palpatine has not betrayed him, that this has all been proceeding according to plan-Until he hears "Good, Anakin! Good! I knew you could do it!" and registers this is Palpatine's voice and feels within the darkest depths of all he is the approach of the words that are to come next.

"Kill him," Palpatine says. "Kill him now."

In Skywalker's eyes he sees only flames.

"Chancellor, please!" he gasps, desperate and helpless, his aristocratic demeanor invisible, his courage only a bitter memory. He is reduced to begging for his life, as so many of his victims have. "Please, you promised me immunity! We had a deal! Help me!"

And his begging gains him a share of mercy equal to that |which he has dispensed.

"A deal only if you released me," Palpatine replies, cold as intergalactic space. "Not if you used me as bait to kill my friends."

And he knows, then, that all has indeed been going according to plan. Sidious's plan, not his own. This had been a Jedi trap indeed, but Jedi were not the quarry.

They were the bait. - ROTS novelization

Palpatine lied to him, just as he lied about everything else.

 

Ok this is getting off topic... but that's kind of the point. I mean these Sith all plot against each other.... but they don't suspect that other Sith do the same thing? That seems really, really naive.

Dooku really is pretty much an idiot if he believes everything Sidious tells him.


Now, maybe Dooku has no choice but to play along for whatever reason... that would seem more plausible to me.

 

I'm sure all Sith know they lie to each other...but by the time Dooku realizes what Palpatine's other plan is, he's lost his hands and has two lightsabers at his neck. Not many options at that point.

You must also realize, having seen Eps 4-6, we know way more about Palpatine and his plans than Dooku does.

 

I'm with Darth__Lobot on this. Could this all be part of the Sith Rule of Two and from time to time the apprentice has to prove they are still the best one for the job? Where does it say the Sith Master can't get a new apprentice. And if the apprentice found out - what are they going to do -- quit the Sith? Make the Sith Master sleep on the couch? Go to court? Get a divorce? These are Sith Lords. If the apprentice lives, it just gives them more hate and motivation to replace the master, but nothing else changes.

So Vader's motivation could be pretty simple. Basically the window on Vader training Luke behind the Emperor's back is closed. The only option left for Vader is to kill Luke and remain the Sith Apprentice or Luke is going to kill Vader. And if Vader doesn't take Luke to Palpatine, Palpatine will find and kill Vader. Vader is stuck. Whether he wants to or not, he's going to have to kill his son to keep his power.

What makes Vader's motivation more complicated are the conflicted feelings Luke is creating in him. Where Anakin was tempted by the dark side, Vader suddenly is struggling with the light.

For Palpatine it's a win--win. If Luke kills Vader, Palpatine gets a more powerful apprentice. If Vader kills Luke, Vader is going have a lot more hate in him and anger, so Palpatine gets a more powerful apprentice. And Vader is going to have to fight his daughter next. Palpatine is a sick man, but he knows the pain this is creating will make the Sith stronger. And the end motivation for anything a Sith does is to gain more power.

 

I think Vader would have accepted any of the three outcomes personally.

 

Vader could not kill Luke because he could not hate him. He is still in the thrall to the idea of the darkside, i.e. hate, giving him power and believes that Luke must turn to the darkside in order for them both to be empowered enough to unseat the Emperor.

But Luke refuses to give in, except momentarily, during which period the only outcome to Luke turning to the darkside is revealed, Vader's death and Luke's enslavement by the Emperor.

 

If the goal was just a trap to kill Anakin then Dooku would go "Seriously? Isn't this needlessly complicated?"
Since Palpatine knows where Anakin is and can probably order him to go places, just set up a trap and have him be outgunned and blast his ship to bits. Or even simpler, put a bomb on it.
Gets the job done and does not put their lives at risk.
As for what Dooku knows, he knows about the rule of two and that Sith always stab each other in the back. He has no excuse for being ignorant here. Plus he knows first hand that Palpatine and him are using both the republic and the seps and have plans to betray them.
As for the other, nothing in the film even remotely implies Dooku has any plan to turn Anakin.

You have made this claim before but as I've said then, the film does not show republic ships forming any kind of blockade or that there were no direction for Griev ship to move. All it would take is one line of dialogue "We have Griev's ship boxed in, they are trapped." Simple.
What it does show is that Griev's ship is sitting right over Coruscant the whole time and not moving.

That Palpatine and Dooku are not on either side is beside the point. They are still in the middle of a big battle with fire going all over the place. If the ship gets shot at, which it DID, they could both die.
So the plan is needlessly risky for both of them.

[/QUOTE]

ESB showed that an active shield stops ships from leaving or entering, since Palpatine was taken from the surface up to the ship, obviously the shield was not up. Either because they don't have one or it was down for some reason. It is likely that Palpatine had arranged for the shield to be down or sabotaged so that he could be taken up.
And later we see Griev's ship flying down to Coruscant, again no shield stopping it.
Ergo, the shield is either down or does not exist so Dooku could have blasted the place.

Dooku has no reason to lure Anakin to him. He is just an obstacle. So no need to duel him at all. With Palpatine dead, the senate and jedi temple gone, the republic is effectively leaderless and Dooku has a chance to win the war or force a stalemate and he can carve out his own empire.
If Dooku knows about order 66, which is likely, he might be able to trigger that order.
This will kill many Jedi and further weaken the republic. It might even kill Anakin.
In all, these are far better options for Dooku IF he can choose to act as he sees fit.
Going along with the duel under the idea that if he looses then Palpatine will step in is foolish.

But like Vader, I don't think Dooku had a choice here. Palpatine commanded him and he obeyed.

@Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

This is basically what I think as well.
Vader can't turn Luke on his own. So his options are to kill Luke if Luke does not turn. Or fight Luke in order to get him to turn and that will end with either him or Luke dead.
His feelings are conflicted and he is not happy with either of these alternatives but feels trapped and unable to do anything else.

When Luke swings at the emperor, what would have happened if Vader did not act?
If Luke did manage to kill Palpatine then either he turns and then he and Luke can work together.
Or he does not turn but Vader can them make an offer, save his friends and together they can reform the empire and bring peace and stability.
If Luke refuses to turn or join, he still won't fight Vader so Vader can either let him go and with the rebellion crushed (at least this is what Vader thinks will happen) Luke is much less of a threat.
Or Vader can make Luke submit by saying he can call off the attack.

It is possible that Palpatine had an ace up his sleeve and could use some Force power to stop Luke.
And now he might kill both Luke and Vader.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface

 

ESB showed that an active shield stops ships from leaving or entering, except the Empire had to land walkers on Hoth somehow, clearly the whole planet was not protected. since Palpatine was taken from the surface up to the ship, obviously the shield was not up. Either because they don't have one or it was down for some reason. It is likely that Palpatine had arranged for the shield to be down or sabotaged so that he could be taken up. The film does not go into detail how he was taken captive, he could even just been in a shuttle in orbit when the CIS "surprised" him. During a time of the worst war in a 1,000 years, it would make sense the Republic would set up shielding around their capital. As I said, if poor rebels could aford it on a backwater planet, the Republic easily could.
And later we see Griev's ship flying down to Coruscant, again no shield stopping it.
Ergo, the shield is either down or does not exist so Dooku could have blasted the place.
Or like with the rebels on Hoth, the shield is just a bubble over a key area and not the entire planet. But you can still land troops outside the bubble and then walk under it. Plus the Jedi did radio ahead when they were crashing. Remember, the Invisible Hand crashed at a runway, not the senate or Jedi temple, heck Anakin likely aimed away from them. For all we know, the crash was on the other side of the planet, as Padme says, you assume too much.

Dooku has no reason to lure Anakin to him. Umm, so the both of them could overpower Palps, the Sith master and Dooku could become the new Sith Master and gain the choosen one as his powerful apprentice, it would be a pretty sweet setup. He is just an obstacle. So no need to duel him at all. Sigh, again, like with Luke, the duel is really a Sith recruitment procedure and test. If Anakin failed, he would die and the two Sith would move on. With Palpatine dead, the senate and jedi temple gone, the republic is effectively leaderless and Dooku has a chance to win the war or force a stalemate and he can carve out his own empire. Except the Republic fleet is beating the mucus out of the CIS fleet. We see countless CIS ships exploding or crashing into each other but we do not see one SD go done. The CIS attack was clearly supposed to be a quick hit and run mission to capture Palps, not a long drawn out battle which Palps and Dooku planed it as.
If Dooku knows about order 66, which is likely, he might be able to trigger that order. He may not have known as Palps likely kept him on a need to know basis as he was planning to dispose of him at some point. Palps knows from experience not to tell all of your knowledge and secrets to your apprentice.
This will kill many Jedi and further weaken the republic. It might even kill Anakin. Except why kill a potentially powerful ally?
In all, these are far better options for Dooku IF he can choose to act as he sees fit.
Going along with the duel under the idea that if he looses then Palpatine will step in is foolish. Except Dooku didn't think he would lose as he cleanly defeated Anakin in their last duel, so it is unlikely he planed or expected anything from Palps in the very remote chance he would lose.

But like Vader, I don't think Dooku had a choice here. Palpatine commanded him and he obeyed. I agree somewhat with this, for the most part it seems Sith apprentices do not have much choice. Only time they seem to have a choice is when a opportunity comes up to betray their master and become the new master. Basically the Sith masters are always on the lookout for better apprentices while the apprentices are always scheming to bump off their master one day and assume that position. Lucas describes the Sith relationship as a cancer instead of symbiosis as with the Jedi. Personally, I would not want to be a Sith, little short term gain with long term losses.

@Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

This is basically what I think as well.
Vader can't turn Luke on his own. So his options are to kill Luke if Luke does not turn. Or fight Luke in order to get him to turn and that will end with either him or Luke dead.
His feelings are conflicted and he is not happy with either of these alternatives but feels trapped and unable to do anything else.

When Luke swings at the emperor, what would have happened if Vader did not act?
If Luke did manage to kill Palpatine then either he turns and then he and Luke can work together.
Or he does not turn but Vader can them make an offer, save his friends and together they can reform the empire and bring peace and stability.
If Luke refuses to turn or join, he still won't fight Vader so Vader can either let him go and with the rebellion crushed (at least this is what Vader thinks will happen) Luke is much less of a threat.
Or Vader can make Luke submit by saying he can call off the attack.

It is possible that Palpatine had an ace up his sleeve and could use some Force power to stop Luke.
And now he might kill both Luke and Vader.

Bye for now.
Old Stoneface[/quote]

 

Nice to see these quotes in one place! Thanks.

I have always held the view that the Emperor thought Luke could destroy the Sith, hence the "destroy us" (in TESB). And I thought this was because of the prophecy of balance or an eddy in the force, hence why Palpatine states "there is a great disturbance in the force". I feel like the quotes are a possible trajectory of Anakin Skywalker and not Luke.

What do you make of this view point?

 

It depends on what you mean by "destroy". Did Palpatine mean in a full-frontal fight, or did he forsee Luke doing "something" that would bring an end to the Sith. Luke was a threat to Vader and the Sith in more ways than one. I think Palpatine goofed in thinking that the final battle would be an external one, rather than an internal one.

And one difference you may not have noticed between Palps and Vader: Palps said that Luke could "destroy us", but Vader said Luke could "destroy him" (i.e. the Emperor.) Vader saw Luke as an ace up his sleeve against Palps, hoping that he would still be able to survive despite Palp's vision. Turns out he was wrong...

 

My hunch is the Emperor was never in any danger of Luke striking him down with a lightsaber whether Vader acted or not. And that was as much a test of Vader's loyalty as it was a ploy to push Luke toward the Dark Side.

We saw Darth Vader in ESB stop a blaster bolt with his hand. And on Star Wars The Clone Wars The Force Entity called The Father used his bare hand to push the blade of Anakin's lightsaber back into the hilt to turn it off. My guess is the Emperor had some Force power that would stop Luke's lightsaber if Vader didn't step in. Maybe he could deflect the blade with his hand. Or catch the blade. Perhaps the blade would just glance off his body with out cutting. Maybe the blade would shut off when it made contact with him. It could even be as simple as the Emperor, in a split second, pulling a lightsaber out of his sleeve, deflecting Luke's sword and then engaging both Luke and Vader in a duel - similar to his duel with Maul and Savage Opress.

Either way if Vader didn't step in then we'd have the Emperor fighting both Luke and Vader. Maybe Luke and Vader would work together. Or maybe it would be like the duel on the Clone Wars where Ventress, Dooku, and Savage Opress, all three, fought each other. That could play out many ways. And if Palpatine won, would he kill both Luke and Vader. Would he pick an apprentice. Would he make them fight each other? We'll never know.

The Emperor would have used the same lightsaber stopping power against Mace Windu if Anakin hadn't protected him as well I think. Palpatine is way to careful to ever leave himself so vulnerable.

So if the Emperor could stop a lightsaber? Why did he get in a sword fight with Yoda? The Father on Mortis ultimately let himself be stabbed. So maybe this power doesn't work all the time. It's not imperious force armor. Also the Emperor was trying to kill Yoda with his lightsaber as much as he was defending himself. It's also possible the Emperor couldn't stop Yoda's lightsaber. But really lightsabers weren't very effective for Yoda or Palpatine in that fight and it quickly turned to a battle of force powers as the Senate building rained down on them.

It's possible Vader knows Palpatine can stop a lightsaber and knows protecting him from Luke is just a test. Now this is a stretch but when Vader finally kills Palpatine he picks up his master exposing them both to Sith lightening and tosses the Emperor down a hole in the Death Star. That seems like the most direct way to do it in the moment. But could Vader could have summoned Luke's Lightsaber to him and stabbed the Emperor? Did Vader not think of this? Did he just want to take care of his master by hand? Or did Vader know an attack with a lightsaber wouldn't work?

Oh yeah. I think Luke some day would have the power to destroy Palpatine as an individual and the Sith as group. And the Emperor sees this and fears it, but is also drawn to the power and possibilities of it.

Among all of Palpatine's great and terrible powers I think his two greatest powers are 1) Seeing the future and using that knowlege to manipulate the present to create the future he wants. 2) His second greatest power is identifying someone else's strengths that could be a danger to him and turning them into a weakness or bending those strengths to serve Palpatine's own ends.

So while Palpatine is scared of Luke's potential to do harm, he is equally drawn to it and wants to corrupt that power to help further him and the Sith.

 

Yes, because the Sith can work with others who use the dark side. TCW established that Dooku was Tyranus before Maul was bisected on Naboo. Ventress worked with them later. Dooku didn't really want to replace Palpatine, he wanted to work with him in the new order. Maul himself trusted Palpatine before finding out that he was nothing more than a pawn. Dooku tried to turn Obi-wan to help him like Ventress did. Dooku wasn't as smart or as cunning as he believed.

Pretty much. Dooku truly believed that he was too valuable to be eliminated. Hell, Palpatine even said that Plagueis never saw the betrayal coming. And Palpatine couldn't even see Vader's final betrayal coming.

Indeed. Note in the rough draft for ROTJ, Palpatine believes that Luke would fight and destroy him right up until it dawned on him that the Skywalker wasn't Luke, but Anakin.

EMPEROR: "He is every inch his father."

BEN: "He is stronger than you imagine, and has many allies."

EMPEROR: "Allies? If they are all as you, I have no concern. Once the boy has killed his father, I will have him destroy you…"

BEN: "Perhaps, but it will not save you. I have foreseen your death at the hands of Skywalker."

EMPEROR: "But I have not, therefore it cannot be."

BEN: "Unless you can no longer see…"


EMPEROR: "Obi-wan foresaw my destruction at your hands, young Skywalker, but it seems his vision was clouded…Perhaps there is still another Skywalker. Why can I not see, could the netherworld have influenced my perception? Another Skywalker…your father!"

 

It's interesting that Vader is really different between Empire and Jedi (in the former bristling with ambition, in the latter feeling pretty burnt-out), you kind of have to suspend disbelief a lot to think he would change so much but it still makes some sense.

In Jedi I'm not sure if he still wants Luke to defeat the Emperor (but he has to be angry enough for it to mean he'll be on the Dark Side) or, I think more likely, he just wants Palpatine to abandon the Rule of Two and let both him and Luke be his apprentices/servants.

 

He still wants Luke to defeat the Emperor, but only after the Emperor has turned him to the dark side. This is all pretty subtextual in the film because Lucas didn't want to outright remind the audience that Vader wanted the Emperor dead, for fear that it would telegraph the twist ending too much, even though Vader obviously ends up killing the Emperor for completely different reasons.

 

If it had been edited differently, we might have kept the early scene of Vader calling out to Luke across the galaxy. Beseeching his son to join with him.

It reasserts the ulterior motives that Vader alludes to during the Cloud City duel. In the finished movie Vader seems to be a compliant pawn and seemingly with no ambitions for Luke or himself any more.

 

"Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force."

 

But the way to turn him seems to be to get him to attack/kill one of them. At what point would Vader have not protected the Emperor and why does he think Luke wouldn't (as he seems to want him to?) go through him first?

 

Because the emperor ordered him and this
Vader: "You don't know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master".

 

Yup. Dooku couldn't disobey his master, what should he do ? When Palpatine says that you need to duel him then he has to. Palpatine is the Sith Master, Dooku is the apprentice.

Vader wasn't any different in RotJ. If Palpatine says he has to fight with Luke, then Vader has to. Sith Apprentices are in no position to discuss with Sith Masters.

 

Yeah but since we're talking about his motivations for why he brought Luke to the emperor at that point in time, I don't think it's relevant. At that moment, Vader is the Emperor's lapdog doing his master's bidding. He goes wherever the Emperor tells him to go and does whatever he tells him to do, so when he orders him to bring Luke what is he going to do, disobeying him? Especially that now he seems less ambitious and conflicted since his failure to turn Luke at Bespin.