PT Vader's screaming

Discussion in 'Prequel Trilogy' started by skywalkerz, Mar 13, 2012.

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  1. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    One theory might state that Obi-wan's refusal to be merciful by simply sticking a lightsaber through Anakin as he lie there instead of letting him slowly burn was Obi-wan's little concession to the Dark Side within himself. One that, as all concessions to the Dark Side do, had grave and unforeseen consequences down the road.
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  2. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    I think he had a right to feel at least slightly vindictive. However, he was mostly following the Jedi code by letting a disarmed opponent live. Especially since it was his "brother". He just couldn't bring himself to kill him, even if he wanted.
    Last edited by -NaTaLie-, Dec 6, 2012
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  3. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He expected Anakin to die, he wasn't letting him live.
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  4. SlashMan Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 5, 2012
    star 3
    On Christopher Lee: I'm glad the scene is how it is. His face and emotions do all the talking; no dialouge needed. The look of betrayal is far more effective.

    With Vader, that was one of the most powerful moments. Vader was in a truly pathetic position, having nothing left to live for but his own hate. I've said it before, but the acting is top notch here.
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  5. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Well, yes, you could put it this way :)
  6. Sistros Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jul 24, 2010
    star 6
    I remember creating the thread in the temp boards about Obi-Wan and should he have done a mercy killing

    it was pretty much 50 50 i think in response
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  7. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I think Hayden/Anakin was absolutely horrible for most of Mustafar, to the point of unintentional comedy, but the "I hate you!" line is actually pretty good.
  8. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    Looking at their relationship as a whole, the "I hate you" bit is a lot more convincing than the "You were my brother, I loved you" crap.
  9. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    I really don't see what reason Anakin has to hate Obi-Wan, but I believe his mind has become so twisted that he really does feel it in that moment.

    I can believe that Obi-Wan loved Anakin and I think in his own twisted way Anakin loved him back.

    They spent ten years attached at the hip, they saved each others lives quite a few times and there were moments when they genuinely loved each others company. It's hard not to consider someone a brother after going through all that together.

    In ROTS, Obi-Wan mentions that he's trained him since he was a small boy (I think that's what he said), that he taught him everything he knew....doesn't that sound like a loving mentor? I really doubt he'd mention this stuff if he wasn't fond of Anakin.

    Just looking at it from Obi-Wan's perspective, he did basically raise Anakin to manhood and before the fall he has reason to be proud of the job he did, even though Anakin was flawed. Anakin was a legitimate hero during the Clone Wars, he's basically presented as the most badass Jedi in the galaxy, in ROTS he takes out Dooku and saves Palpatine and an unconscious Obi-Wan at the same time. For that short moment in time, Anakin may have appeared to be fulfilling his potential. Anakin gets on the Council, even if it is a dubious accomplishment, and it appears that Obi-Wan actually feels proud of Anakin, if you take his dialogue at face value. Talent alone can be really endearing, especially to a mentor. It's easy to imagine Obi-Wan looking at Anakin and thinking "Wow, look how amazing he is. Look at what he can do. And he's my student."

    In ANH, Obi-Wan doesn't really mention anything about Anakin's personality, he mentions his talent, and that he was a good friend.

    In ROTJ, when Vader says "Obi-Wan once thought as you do", I think he's saying that wistfully, like he's remembering their time fondly and probably wishes he could go back and do things differently. As ghosts, they give each other a little heartbroken homecoming smile and you can tell they've buried the hatchet. If Obi-Wan didn't love Anakin, I doubt he would have taught him to come back as a ghost.
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  10. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    I remember that thread. It seems so weird that he didn't finish the job. If my supposed best friend killed colleagues, a handful of little children, a roomful of the most powerful leaders in the galaxy, and then attempted to kill me, all in the name of installing a dictator to power, I would not have hesitated. It wouldn't have been mercy, it would have been justice.
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  11. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Right, but you're not a Jedi. Obi-Wan still follows the Code, even when the Order is no longer around.
    He's probably regretted it eventually, hence his and Yoda's insistence that Luke must confront Vader.
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  12. KED12345 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Sep 10, 2012
    star 4
    Always possible they cut that out as well when we get to that episode.
  13. Cantina Bassist Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2012
    star 2
    That creates a bit of confusion as to what exactly he was referring to when he draws his weapon & states, "I will do what I must". I guess he changed his mind.
  14. KilroyMcFadden Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 2012
    star 3
    Ben has not exactly ever been a stickler for the code.
  15. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    There's a difference between killing an armed opponent in the battle and a disarmed one who's stopped being a threat. Even Anakin knows it's not a Jedi way.
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  16. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Despite occasional recklessness, he's a by the book Jedi (unlike Qui-Gon). In any case, I didn't find his actions unbelievable giving his background and relationship with Anakin.
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  17. fett 4 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 2, 2000
    star 4
    So it's the Jedi way to burn somone to death?

    He should have just finished him off it works, either as justice for a child killer or as giving the brother "he loved" a quick death.
  18. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    Last I checked, he didn't burn anyone. It was all Anakin's own doing.

    For the record, I wouldn't have blamed Obi-Wan for the "mercy kill".
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  19. Order66Survivor Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 10, 2012
    star 1
    Of help, my signature may be

    (Favorite scene in the saga/movies... Only thing close would be the Sandman to Peter heart to heart at the end of Spider-Man 3). Now I'm sad .. Goodnight !

    Btw "Battle of the Heroes" is just another incredible masterpiece from mister John Williams ... I listen to it on the way to class ... And work .. And the grocery store ..
  20. Narutakikun Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 2012
    star 4
    If so, then he was uncharacteristically careless, and whatever remained of the Jedi Order paid the price for it.
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  21. DarthMak Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2001
    star 5
    "You underestimate my power" makes me groan but I do agree with the "I hate you" a minute later.
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  22. FARK2005 Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Sep 3, 2012
    star 2
    Oh boy, here we go again. There is an enormous difference between sitting comfortable in a chair at home with a cup of tea in hand and reading about a specific event or watching it on television and make decisions about what you would do if you had been in his/hers shoes, and actually being in the middle of it. They made a big survey in my country several years back in which over 90% of the respondents claimed they would interfere if they saw someone getting assaulted. Now that’s quite a reassuring result, in reality, however, statistics shows that very few witnesses to assaults or other crimes actually reacts (like calling the police) much less interfere.

    So why is there often such a big difference between what you believe you would do and what you actually do in a specific situation? Basically, it’s because there are two different parts of your brain that takes charge in the two situations:

    • When you’re presented with a theoretic situation you have time to analyse it, you can review, comprehend and calculate all possible scenarios and their potential impacts – you even have time to include your morals in your considerations – and then make a rational and logical decision about what you would do in that situation.
    • When you suddenly find yourself in the middle of that situation that requires for you to make a decision here and now, your decision-making is based on reflexive emotions and instinctive evaluations/feelings (which kicks in long before rational consciousness), which involve an automatic “filtration” of acceptable and unacceptable actions based on earlier experiences that resulted in reward/punishment (happiness, pain, shame, fear, joy etc.).
    Unlike us, Obi-Wan is in the thick of things and therefore does not have the luxury of rational consciousness. Within a very short amount of time he has watched the Republic he has fought so hard for disintegrate and his entire “family” brutally slaughtered – a slaughter led by someone he loved as a brother – seen said brother having become so twisted by the Dark side as to have become a completely different person, and fought him in a deadly duel. So not only is Obi-Wan very close to reaching his emotional breaking point, he is also faced with an emotional dilemma: he has to stop a person who is a threat to everyone around him, but this person also happens to be someone he has raised since he was a nine-year-old boy and who he loves like a brother. When Anakin jumps at him, his senses register danger and without conscious thought he reacts by the way of acquired reflexes and neutralizes the danger. The reason he doesn’t kill Anakin then or after is because for as long as he has known Anakin his feelings/instincts have dictated he protect him, and therefore his instincts and reflexive emotions made it unacceptable and hence impossible for him to deliver a killing blow.

    I’m certain that on the journey to Polis Massa, once some of the stress, adrenalin, and emotional turmoil abated and rational consciousness kicked, Obi-Wan deeply regretted not putting a quick and merciful end to Anakin’s suffering - if not to make certain the threat was eliminated then as a curtsy to the good man he once was.

    No not careless, emotionally overwhelmed – two very different things.
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  23. Arawn_Fenn Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Jul 2, 2004
    star 7
    He's fine until Obi-Wan shows up, at which point he becomes Angry Four-Year-Old.
  24. -NaTaLie- Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Nov 5, 2001
    star 4
    He sounded suitably deranged.
  25. CT-867-5309 Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jan 5, 2011
    star 5
    All I know is that I probably wasn't supposed to burst into laughter nearly every time Anakin spoke on Mustafar, especially not the first time I saw it.

    Was Mustafar supposed to be a humorous climax to the prequel trilogy?
    Last edited by CT-867-5309, Dec 9, 2012
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