Vader's words to Luke in ROTJ

I was curious enough to watch the Vader/Palpatine/Luke scenes in ROTJ last night and I was struck by something I had never picked up all the times I had watched the movie before:

When Vader is trying to tempt Luke to the dark side, its interesting he seems to suggest that the ambush on his friends on Endor might cease - "it is the only way you can save your friends". This was something I had not really considered before. Before it just seemed a token lie. But with knowledge of how Vader turned in ROTS taken into consideration, I was left wondering exactly how that would have worked? Would Vader really have given Luke the authority and power to save his friends in exchange for his turn? Was it a con? Was it a baited trap - knowing Luke would probably choose to kill them once giving in to his hatred and Palpatine's teachings? Its my belief that in ROTS that Palpatine knew in exchange for information on how to save his wife, and the act of turning to do so, Vader would eventually choose to kill Padme anyway - what I would call a perfect trap. Was the same thing at play here?

What was most interesting for me was to analyse the fact that Vader is using the very thing that turned himself to try and turn his son - compassion for his friends and trying to ensure their survival. I had never really picked up on it since seeing ROTS. For me, having seen ROTS, it only adds weight to the moment and also ties ROTJ and ROTS together very nicely. Who says the prequels don't enrich the OT? it also makes Vader seem even more heartless - to bring up the experience and root of his own misery to try and turn his son to the dark side... the very thing that caused himself so much pain and suffering.

 

Yes, I'm sure George used that idea from ROTJ when coming up with a reason for Anakin's fall to the dark side in ROTS. Who says the OT doesn't enrich the PT?

 

nobody that I know of. many people state that the prequels ruin the original trilogy though.

 

Good observation! Like a mirror of ROTS. If Luke had choosen to give in to Vaders plot, Luke`s friends would have suffered just as Anakins friends suffered in ROTS. Anakin thought he could save Padme by turning to the dark side, but he did not think she would turn against him. Of course Vader knew that if Luke turned to the dark side, his friends would also eventually turn against Luke; and so Luke would perhapse be forced to fight them, maybe kill them..

Sly, very sly..

 

Yeah I noticed that recently as well. I do enjoy how Episode III gives that line a lot more weight.

 

Good posts! For me, almost every line from Vader or the Emperor in Return has more weight after the PT. And yes, it is amazing to see Vader trying to turn Luke the same way he was turned by the Emperor. It shows how deep Vader went into the Dark Side. He hates himself and what he did so much, he feels so miserable, that he is ready to do the same thing to his son.

 

It's not really that stunning a plot, people. How else could Palpatine lure Luke to the dark side? Threaten to scratch his ship? Of course Palpatine would use what Luke cares most about: his friends. Seriously, what else is there?

 

Exactly. It's a common enough plot device; it doesn't enrich anything.

 

That's true, and come to think of it, Vader used the same "save your friends" trick on Bespin.
But I'm not sure the original poster said it was a great plot point, just that it sounds more credible after seeing Anakin fall for it.

 

It worked for me back in 1980. The PT didn't really tread any new ground, plot-wise. It was just more of the same. But I don't mean that as an insult, it's just how it is.

 

the PT tread no new ground plot-ground? not for wanting to turn this into another tiresome PT vs OT debate, but that simply isn't true

my initial post was not declaring there to be some terrific new plot in this area. it was a reappraisal of an old moment having seen the PT. it adds weight to Vader's words - before they seemed token. after the PT, having seen the very consequences of sacrificing yourself for trying to save your friends, it makes Vader's words even more twisted and meaningful. back in 1983 we did not know Vader turned to save someone he loved. now we do and he's trying to use it against his son. it brings it different emphasis.

there seems to be almost some sort of siren that goes off in folks heads on these boards when something vaguely complimentary is said about the PT... something that suggest it may help improve the OT. there is an immediate kneejerk reaction to try and belittle it, no matter what it is.

 

I agree. I do it all the time. It just rubs me the wrong way when people say the OT now has more meaning because of the PT. Maybe if I'd liked the PT better I wouldn't feel this way.

Anyway!

I think Vader's original reason to turn to the dark side was something a whole lot more interesting than trying to save a loved one. (A loved one he choked only moments later...) We were never told what his original motivation was, unfortunately. Anakin has a bad dream and this causes him, through a series of events, to fall to the dark side? Meh.

If you would have told me that back in 1977 I would have laughed at you hysterically.

Maybe George ran out of ideas when writing the PT and just relied on what worked in the OT. How this adds anything to the OT is beyond me.

 

well, the merits of the PT vs OT have been debated endlessly and I don't intend this thread to turn into that. so all I can say diplomatically is that I disagree with you profusely and believe the complexities in anakin's turn to be one of the most interesting and appealing aspects of the saga. but then again, we clearly see the saga two different ways, so its no surprise. i will though say that i don't believe you've fully understood anakin if you think his choking padme contradicts his love for her.

 

My thoughts exactly. I was going to point this out last night, but my posting rampage was getting ridiculous.

Anakin having GOOD motivations to turn to evil isn't interesting? Luke nearly turned to protect the sister he loved. Maybe Star Wars isn't about what you thought it was.

 

Oh please.

Choking = Love? Yeah, okay.

Anakin was selfish, plain and simple. That's not an admirable trait! He wanted what he wanted and sold his soul to get it and keep it.

Star Wars isn't that deep, people. The PT tried to explain something, which for me, needed no explanation. I couldn't care less why Anakin turned. All that mattered to me was his redemption at the end of it all.

This thread points out a rather obvious repeating of themes between the trilogies. Okay, fine. That's a short road to go down, isn't it?

 

Anakin's selfishness was a product of his attachment.

remember, its as "deep or as shallow as the viewer wishes to makes it"

and you were saying exactly this when queueing for episodes 1-3, i take it? odd why you would even choose to watch the prequel films at all if this is the case.

the thread identifies a repeating element i personally had not considered before - and in identifying this i was curious to see who else had perhaps missed it and also scrutinise its deeper consequences. i dont feel like i need to justify it. some of the responses so far have proven it worthy of discussion.

 

I really wish that people who have no other interest than automatically bashing the PT would keep away from this kind of threads. Honestly. That's Ok, you don't have to like them. But can we discuss them without having to argue about the same thing over and over again.

Personally, I think that the PT gives a lot of weight to many sequences of Return of the Jedi, and specially, to all the scenes with the Emperor and Vader. Vader repeatedly saying "it is useless to resist", "it is too late for me"... shows a man who has given up. "Indeed, you are powerful, as the Emperor has forseen". Yes, the Emperor did forsee and plan everything, even Vader's own fall. Vader is now aware of how he was manipulated by the Emperor, but he is so consumed by hatred and fear that he is letting the Emperor turn his son, and take away everything he has.

Ultimately, Vader in Return of the Jedi knows that he is doing the wrong thing, but he isn't willing to do anything about it. "Obi-Wan once thought as you did... you don't know the power of the Dark Side. I MUST obey my master".

 

Granted. But he was still being selfish. Not only that, but he gave up everything he believed in and put the whole galaxy in danger. A new-born Sith isn't good for most people's health. He destroyed countless lives. It wasn't just his decision to turn that was selfish, but to wallow in all that power later was also being selfish. Some people say the story of Anakin Skywalker is a tragedy. I heartily disagree. A tragedy is when something uncalled for causes major suffering in peoples lives. This was a conscious decision on Anakin's part. His inability to denounce his dark side following for many years also shows that he wallowed in self-pity. So someone please tell me again why I should like or care about Anakin? I happen to like the Anakin I saw at the end of ROTJ, post-Vader (Shaw).

By the way, I only saw TPM in the theater. I was so disappointed I vowed to wait for the next two on DVD.

 

never was it suggested you should. like him or not, the arc of his character and the complexities of his fall are certainly interesting to observe and analyse - though i think you gloss over many of these complexities for your own convenience of disliking the prequels altogether.

 

How is it a complex story arc? Anakin wanted to keep Padme from dying. He thought, in his arrogance, that he had the power to do so. Palpatine lying to him shows how naive, selfish and arrogant Anakin was. I really can't find anything that interesting in his character. It's not an anti-PT rant here, I also have problems with some characters in the OT. I hear all this commotion about how great the PT is and how much it adds to the "saga" etc. Try as I might, I just don't see it. The whole purpose of the PT was to tell Anakin's story. His most important, formative years are NEVER shown on screen. The years between TPM and AOTC are incredibly important and we never see them! Anakin was a good kid in TPM, giving and not at all selfish. What did the Jedi do to him to make him the whiny teen we see in AOTC? Was his training sub-par, thus leaving him more susceptible to the dark side? Anyway, I could go a dozen different directions with my Anakin gripes, but this isn't the thread for it. Unfortunately, unless you love the PT 100%, you're automatically labeled a basher.

 

I think this is based on a misunderstanding of the PT by those who like it.

It breaks down like this: There is a certain number of themes running through the PT. All those were put there by the OT. Lucas took the themes from the OT and continued spinning on them in the PT. This is to be expected.

However, while it is true that the PT adds little new in terms of theme to the framework of the story that has already estbalished in the OT, it must also be acknowledged that to claim that it does not add storytelling depth to the saga to explore these themes is to underestimate or belittle the significance of doing this - any storyteller worth his/her salt would.

Having said that, I'm personally of the opinion that people set the bar very low when they are prepared to hail Lucas as a genius for further exploring the very themes he laid out for himself in the OT. Rather, I'd say that it's the bare minimum we can expect from the PT. We knew that the Republic would turn into the Empire. We knew that Anakin was a war hero during the Clone Wars. We knew that the Jedi failed to see and stop the rise of Evil. We knew that Ben would try to train Anakin and turn out to be a failure as a teacher, indirectly tragically contributing to Anakin's fall. All those aspects had to be in the PT because the OT said so. The one thing I thought was new was that Anakin turned to save a loved one, but now the OP shows us that this thematic seed is actually present in the OT, too. Good spotting, btw.

Oh, and the story is, in fact, the tragedy of Vader. A tragedy is a story in which the fatal flaw of the protagonist proves to be his fall, which is exactly what happens.

Edit: Oh, and if anyone wants to slam me for being an arrogant elitist, now is the time to do it

 

Anakin's turn really is one of the most interesting things to watch in the saga. I could explain to you why, Jawa, but its definitely something you're gonna have to wrestle with yourself.
A few things to keep in mind about Anakin. He's not overconfident as he seems. He really is the most powerful Jedi in the order. He's loves to help others, and he desires the approval of others. Sidious's mind games are obvious to most of the audience, but to Anakin, he's the sole source of approval.

In TPM he really is just a heroic little kid with a heart of gold. But you do have a point, Jawa, that Anakin's not really an easy person to admire in AOTC or ROTS. In AOTC, he's easy to empathize with, but he's not anyone you'd look up to. In ROTS, he's being used as a double agent, and ends up becoming a different person by the end of the movie.
Anakin's actually a traditional hero in the CG Clone Wars TV series, and I think audiences are having a better time with that stage of his life.

 

I hadn't really noticed it in ROTJ before, good eye OP. But it is pretty evident in ESB though. Luke's turning away from his training could have turned out to have been his first baby step towards a slow fall to the dark side, and it was completely motivated by his desire to save people he loved. And he saw their suffering in a vision - Vader lured Luke to take misguided actions by torturing Han, knowing Luke would sense it, and knowing Luke would respond - just as he himself did years earlier.

I am no fan of the PT, but in this very particular siutation I do believe that certain PT events added new (maybe I should say different) depth to the OT (not that the OT needed more depth - SW and ESB were perfect as they stood IMO).

EDIT: I just realized I took it a bit off topic there, discussing ESB instead of ROTJ as mentioned in the OP, sorry!

 

offer him power. offer him the empire. ensure his own survival. many ways. palpatine would be a bit of a one-trick pony if that was the only method he has. and remember he successfully lured two jedi to the dark side - he was obviously skilled in manipulation.

to the other points, anakin's journey is complex from a storytelling point-of-view because we see how he rationalises the very things that instinctively he knows to be wrong. its a sympathetic study of evil acts and their logistics - not a trait seen in a big-budget movie very often. on face value, anakin never stops doing the things he feels are right... he honours his loyalty to the republic (later the empire) and defends its leader. but in doing so he is led down a corrupt path which betrays the things most precious to him, and ironically, the person he cares most deeply for. in trying to gain power to save her, he doesn't see how much poisons his own soul - its tragic that the acts to which he commits himself to save her become the very thing that drive her away - an event he can't emotionally deal with and could never return from (or so it seems by the end of the film). thats just one aspect of it - not to mention his deeper emotions and conflicts about palpatine, the jedi and obi-wan and how all come to a head. i see it of biblical proportioins. i think most people expected anakin's turn to be solely about lust for power. and even though this was the root of the turn, the actual turn was an unselfish one in principle - the desire to save someone else (sacrificing his own soul for it).

i could go on and on about what i deem to be a complex character arc but hey, what good would it do? its up there on the screen if you want to analyse it. i don't think you do though. i think you're as set in your ways as i am. so maybe its best left where it is.

i've said before I have no intention of turning this into a debate about the merits of the PT vs the OT. this is a thread designed to celebrate the saga as a whole. its star wars. its all good i don't want to see it diverted any further so I'll do my best to refrain from discussing this part of it from now on.