Vapadd: Dark side superconductor, or merely a refined combat form???????

Ok..I need help. Charlemagne19 and i have been going on and on about this for over a month now.

heres the debate: Is Vappad merely a variant of Form VII or is it more than a mere combat form? Charlemagne19 has stated a very stiff argument that Vapadd is simply a combat form and perhaps philosophy...but NOT in anyway able to harness force energies ::in this case Dark ones:: and reflect them upon the creator. I disagree, after reading the Return of the Sith novelization, as well as the Star wars wiki definition of the form, I have concluded that vapadd is as describes a "superconducting loop" that allows the users to redirect forces engegies directed towards him. Do you agree or disagree??? HELP END THIS PLEASE!!!

Heres is the link to the last thread, and the wiki sight. Below that are quotes from ROTS, curtesy of

http://starwars.wikicities.com/wiki/Form_V
http://boards.theforce.net/literature/b10003/22312619/p1

ROTS:

p. 332-333: [L]ightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pur, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him.

Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him.

And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.

p. 330: Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center -

And let it fountain out again.

He reflected the fury oupon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.

...

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow...


let the debate begin...

 

Flowerful description for an impossibly unrealistic sword art. (Braces for the Jelly Assault!)

 

I view Vapaad as basically another lightsaber form. An expression of the Jedi's fighting technique and self. While certainly these things are important to a Jedi's understanding of the Force, it's important to note that when it comes down to it....Vapaad is just another lightsaber style.

Form II and Form III have their own merits that if this were true about Vaapad we'd see plenty of oddities to them as well. In absence of these oddities, I'm inclined to think the final scene was more a reflection of Mace Windu's abilities than it was of any AwesomenessKewlPowerzTM of Vapaad itself.

I admit that part of this may be my desire to make sure Mace Windu is not written off as a one trick pony. His ability with Vapaad was not all that was Mace. There was also his shatterpoints, being the second most powerful Jedi, and his attachment to the Republic.

I disagree on this point. The point of Vapaad is that its designed on basically having a caporia like mixture of various battle stances and attacks that make it wildly unpredictable. Many swordsmen have difficulty with amateurs rather than experienced swordsman because of unpredictability. It also is designed to be about channeling emotions for that extra "push" in battle.

It's a very understandable battle art...if not the be end all of swordsmanship.

 

Ever jedi Swordart id unrealistic by its very nature, come on.

I mean come on "super conductive loop" is a bit to descriptive and definative to be sidlined as literary garnish isnt it?!?!? This isnt Faulkner.


And no ones calling mace a one trick pony. Anyone that read shatterpoints knows what an amazing ability that is..as for his attachment to the republic, that arguably lead to his downfall.

 

as for his attachment to the republic, that arguably lead to his downfall.

It depends, attachments were something Yoda would later find as a strength.

I tend to think of Vapaad as actually fairly similiar to Mugen's "Champloo" fighting style to be perfectly honest from Samurai Champloo. It's a collection of the Previous Six Fighting styles (which makes Juyo) completely by Mace's own studies of fighting techniques.

 

Mugen's right up there with Vash the Stampede and Spike in my mind. I love that guy.

Champloo is just so well done. Did you see the episode b4 last? when Mugen was like, betrayed by his old buddies, and hes like half dead on his feet but still finishes off the loser who dared to attempt at his life??? That was amazing. Then he just walks past to girl.


The style is similar yes, unpredictable, random, filled with passion and flare. but its the FORCE aspect that transcends it. Im not calling it all mighty superform...but if you can use it like mace could...

 

Yeah, great episode.

I love Jinn and the brothel more.

The style is similar yes, unpredictable, random, filled with passion and flare. but its the FORCE aspect that transcends it. Im not calling it all mighty superform...but if you can use it like mace could...

My take on Vapaad is that the "mindset" is an important thing but we should put it in context. Most Jedi do not necessarily WANT to win by whaever means necessary or kill their opponents. Vapaad's philosophy is victory and defeating your enemy...not defense. Which is one of the reasons its so tempting to force a Jedi to the Dark Side.

Mace's attachment to the Republic and inherent decency I would argue is the reason that Mace was able to not follow Sora Bolq and his padawan Depa into the Dark Side. Both became obsessed with the "victory at all costs" aspect of Vapaad.

But this is just the philosophy of it. It has visible and true effects in combat. A warrior fighting to kill will win over one fighting defensively usually. However, its not particualrly magical.

Same the Force grows stronger when you use Emotions to use it. Not necessarily the dark Side (which is channeled by fear anger and aggression) but joy, love, and passion will be stronger instinctually than Jedi logic too.

To continue the Jinn comparison, an effective Jedi master will have disadvantages against this style but can overcome them with his own devotion to his style. The Same for a Sith.

 

As the quote from the ROTS novelization indicated Vaapad was more than just the lightsaber techniques, which have always been a thematic variation of Form VII Juyo. Conduit for the Dark Side and all that... though he was able to fully nullify the rage of Darth Sidious, it appears Mace at least partially fell to the dark side in the same manner as Sora and Depa. As the Great Flanneled One himself indicated in the ROTS DVD commentary: Anakin WAS doing the right thing by stopping him from slaying Darth Sidious... It's just the irony that he was doing it for the totally wrong reasons (wanting to get Sidious knowledge from the trial process).

 

But this is just the philosophy of it. It has visible and true effects in combat. A warrior fighting to kill will win over one fighting defensively usually. However, its not particualrly magical.

So your saying that the sheer will to win by anymeans translated into the "conduit-like" force minipulation??? Thats seems like a stretch even for windu. I refuse to beliee he wasnt concious of his force use. He implimented that technique through his form.

P.S- you talking about the last episode when Jinn was like "So it was as I suspected, this money has a history. But I owe you no answer." and like bisects 5 ninja?? That was awesome, yes. But the fact that he hurt his bak made it more of an amusing scene.

 

I'd say that vapaad is, in essence, an act of will... it's about control and manipulation of the flow of events, about using the Force to place yourself so these proceed as you desire...

I'd question whether Mace fully "understands" vapaad, what it implies and where it can take him; but I'll note that he is able to master the monster inside himself by having beliefs, however battered, external to the fighting technique... which is why Sora and Deepa fell...

- The Imperial Ewok

 

Best explanation Ive heard yet. Thanx McEwock.