vegetarianism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by AnakinsGirl, Jan 6, 2005.

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  1. TheBoogieMan Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 6
    I'll try. My position is basically this: I do not believe it is necessary for us to kill other sentient beings to be healthy. Thus any non-human animal that died for my diet died unnecessarily (in principle, I understand the argument that "It is dead already, you didn't kill it etc"). Furthermore, I also believe that in the majority of cases (especially involving large meat companies) the animals are treated unarguably unjustifiably poorly, even akin to torture in many cases. I will not spend money to support such companies who inflict such unnecessary pain and cruelty on non-human animals, just as I would not support a company who tortured humans.


    Yes you can. You can get protein from many, many other sources, including, but not limited to, mushrooms, beans and nuts. I obviously have recieved enough protein to live for my 19 years unhindered.
  2. Sherylin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2005
    star 2
    You know, meat is a necessary part of many diets. There is such thing called "balanced menu". If a vegetarian thinks he is very healthy, well, that's great, I am very glad for you, honestly. But if I am ill, or my loved one is seriously ill, we go to the doctor, and pass many tests to understand what is wrong. When the doctor told me "your boy needs serious diet", I talked to dietarian, and since then we follow strict shedule of eating and taking medication. There is a small list of food that he is allowed to eat, and a huge list of what is forbidden to eat, forbidden for many years, if not forever. Do you think I care about eggs, turkey or fish that I buy, cook and give to my son? I know that every egg could become a chicken, but it did not because my son ate it for breakfast. So what? He can't eat anything else, otherwise he will feel very sick and be in great pain, so I don't care about chickens. It is very simple - if you had ulcerative colitis, you would be eating meat, chicken, fish, and everything that doctor tells you must eat. No beans, mushrooms or milk allowed.
  3. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    Technically speaking you are correct, you cannot live on vegetables alone. However, most vegetarian diets (and vegan) include large amounts of soy, which is an excellent source of protein.









    I actually did a little reading into diets recently when I did some research on a related topic. Some interesting observations out there, and also the results from some recent clinic studies into diet and mortality rates (I can reference the studies if anyone is really interested).


    Basically, those on vegetarian and vegan diets have lower incidences of heart disease and cancer (numbers 1 and 2 on the biggest killers list). Many people believe it's due to the lack of meat in the diet, however, it's actually due to the high levels of non-essential amino acids found in soy, which is a large part of the non-meat diet.

    Infact, meat eaters who include soy in their diet actually have a similar reduction in heart disease and cancers. So, it's not really the meat that's the problem, is the protection given by soy.



    However, a vegetarian diet is very dangerous (and more so with vegan) unless properly supplimented with vitamins and minerals (vitamin B12 in particular). Infact, one study has shown that people on a vegan diet have a much higher incidence of stroke than meat eaters (I think stroke is the 4th biggest killer).

    Eating or not eating meat is a personal choice and shouldn't really be questioned by the other side. I will say however, that we have canine teeth for a reason.
  4. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    So where do canines fit into all of this? Or are you arguing our natural omnivorous state predates civilisation and is thus, irrelevant?

    E_S
  5. Sherylin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2005
    star 2
    I was told that soy is very good for health. Since my son has lactose intolerance, I use Nutrilon Soya formula to cook him cereal. Actually I give him soy instead of milk all the time since he refused of breast feeding.

    I tried to eat soy myself, and you know what, it isn't tasty. At all...
  6. agap_afima Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2005
    star 2
    So you don't think that human beings have any sort of dominion over animals?
  7. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    philosphically speaking we don't, but literally we do. We have no divine rights over animals.



    I tried to eat soy myself, and you know what, it isn't tasty. At all...

    LOL - I totally agree!
  8. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    we don't have it literal either, do we. we just claim we do.

    the thing is that i don't think it's immoral to kill animals. the animals would certainly understand it if we killed them for food. (well, that is far-fetched, but maybe you'll get my point) the point is that we kill them in masses without actually having to survive ourselves as such. we herd them, line them up and then kill them. we have no respect for the life that we take, that is my gripe. if i knew that the life wasn't taken unnecessarily, i might go and eat meat again. as it is, we just kill in abundance and we don't need to kill as many as we do.
  9. agap_afima Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Dec 19, 2005
    star 2
    I believe that humans have dominion over animals.
    However, I also believe that it is possible to take it to the extreme.
    Some animals are occasionaly mistreated. Being a Christian, I believe that humans need to take care of God's creation.
  10. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    we don't have it literal either, do we. we just claim we do.

    Literally we do because in practice we have control over most species of animal. It's a minor point - it just isn't written anywhere that we can do what we like to animals. I know that we do, it just isn't our right.
  11. Minela Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2005
    star 3
    I have recently become a Vegan, not for moral reasons or anything deep like that. Basically I was sick of the junk I was putting in my body. So I have been Vegan for almost a month now and I really like it. Wonder how long this will last, but I feel great.

    My boyfriend is a vegitarian for moral reasons. Basically he decided that killing living beings was bad. Then he couldn't justify killing animals for food since we do not depend on it for survival.
  12. barabel_humour Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2005
    star 4
    At the risk of being regarded as a weirdo, I'm going to admit that I actually like the taste of soy like tofu and soya milk. [face_worried]

    I became a vegetarian when I was twelve (wow! a whole decade ago) and I have to say my overall health has actually improved since I gave up meat because it made me much more aware of how unbalanced and unvaried my diet was before but I'm really lucky because I'm not a fussy eater. The funny thing is that I actually really liked the taste of meat (pork chops and tuna in particular) but I couldn't justify eating it because I knew I could never kill intentionally kill an animal, skin it, drain the blood and whatever else so it didn't seem right to me.

    I have to say though, at the risk of alienating both sides of the argument, that the worst thing about being a vegetarian is (a) meat eaters who require you to justify your decision or (b) other vegetarians/vegans who are determined to convert every meat-eater. [face_frustrated] I made the decision that was/is right for me and I'm happy and healthy with it so I don't need anyone else to agree with it. :)
  13. AnakinsGirl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2001
    star 4
    "you can't live on vegetables alone".
    It's funny how when I say I don't eat meat, people are absolutely perplexed about what I DO eat. Well, meat is just ONE of many 'food groups'. There are plenty of grains, fruits, veggies, and dairy products that I take part in eating eeeevery day. Obviously, I would be malnourished if all I ate was veggies and nothing else. Which is why I eat eggs, soymilk, beans, fruit...pizza...and all the other normal things you omnivores enjoy. It is not a difficualt concept to fathom.


    As for health reasons for defending eating meat....I am not saying you are a bad person or are partaking in an evil practice if you eat meat in order to prevent serious health problems. Many people are not able to cut meat out of their diets (anemia...etc.) If I were pregnant, I would also go back to eating chicken to prevent devloping health problems myself (although it is possible to be pregnant and a vegetarian.)

  14. TheBoogieMan Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 6
    Sherylin, I'm not sure what your point is. Sorry.

    You raise an interesting point, Malkie. I personally believe that a vegetarian is more likely to be healthier and eat better than a carnivore. Why? Not because of some inherent benefit or disadvantage of either diet, but because if you are going to be a vegetarian you need to actually *think* about what you are going to eat, and are therefore more likely to eat well. However, I know a few people who have become vegetarian thinking it was "meat and four veg" without the meat. That's stupid and dangerous, and leads to the type of situations where people say to me "My nephew was a vegetarian for a while. He was as pale and skinny as anything, and ill all the time!"


    Yes. It is no longer necessary for us to eat meat.


    Not in the slightest. I would even argue that to assume so is 'speciesist', however I also acknowledge that this is still a radical idea and I can't really blame anyone for thinking so, although I will disagree with them. However in a hundred years it may be that we'll look on these times as dark and unjust, just as we look at the years of slavery now.



    I totally agree with you on all points.

    Regarding soy, it generally tastes of nothing. If you do nothing to nothing, nothing will taste like nothing. But for example, if you leave tofu in a sauce or marinate overnight, it will taste like the sauce or the marinate. Many people who have tried tofu do not prepare it at all and complain when it tastes bad. I say to anyone in this thread who doesn't like tofu, try it again and this time, leave it in to marinate for a full day before eating it. Then, it will taste beautiful (providing you haven't marinated it in catfood) and be good for you too.

    I would ad
  15. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    No longer necessary? Then why is the body deriving inherent benefits from eating meats? The human body was designed to benefit from a balanced diet, which means a measured combination of meat and vegetable products. I have had girlfriends who were vegetarian and the number who were dead tired by 10pm each day, with little activity to warrant such tiredness, was astounding.

    What's the term for the tiredness brought on by a protracted absense of iron? Anemic?

    E_S
  16. Sherylin Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 26, 2005
    star 2
    My point of view is very simple. For those people who have incurable chronic diseases, there are special balanced diets, developped by dietarian doctors. For example, if a child has problems with colon (colitis and lactose intolerance), he should not eat dairy products, instead he should eat meat, chicken, eggs, plus all the other normal parts of food ration, such as cereal, vegetables, fruits, etc, etc. Or, if a child has problems with liver, he should not eat too much meat, instead he should eat dairy products, vegetables, etc, etc. If a child has problems with both colon and liver (like my son), he must keep very strict diet with certain amount of fish, eggs, chicken, turkey and meat to get necessary protein (and iron), plus to the amount of soy and other food. I only said that people who have serious problems with health will listen to the dietarian doctor and feel better if they follow proper diet. In this case, vegetarianism is not even discussed as an opportunity. Otherwise, a child may end up eating only Modulen IBD and steroids. Believe me, I saw a dozen of such children, and it is scary even to remember.

    I totally agree with you. I am glad you are able to eat what you like, it is such a pleasure that you can afford to be eating the food that is most pleasant for you. I hope you find a good doctor and he'll advise you about your diet if you decide to have a baby and get pregnant.
  17. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    Probably, but that's why most dedicated vegetarians and vegans take suppliments. That's Boogie's point - that you don't *have* to eat meat because you can get the appropriate vitamins etc from suppliments. As a society we've developed to the point where we don't need to rely on animals.

    I agree with your observation Boogie that vegetarians need to think more about their diet, and hence probably have a healthier one in many aspects. Furthermore, your average vegetarian (compared to your average meat eater) is more likely to participate in sports. So, there's no real conclusion if diet is completely responsible for the better health of vegetarians as there aren't the appropriate 'control' groups.




    However, I do love a nice bit of steak once in a while, and I don't think I could survive without fish in my diet.
  18. barabel_humour Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2005
    star 4
    Regarding the argument involving canines, I would remind posters that humans still have appendix which were originally necessary to help us to digest cellulose (grass?) however over time as our diets changed it became redundant to the point that it no longer serves any significant digestive function. So just because the human body once evolved an organ or teeth for a specific function doesn't mean that we are still supposed to use them now. Hope that makes sense.

    Ender_Sai: Oh and anaemia is caused by a lack of iron. So if your next vegetarian girlfriend suffers from it give her a bar of dark chocolate (I recommend Green and Black) and I'm sure she'll perk up again. :p
  19. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    I would remind posters that humans still have appendix which were originally necessary to help us to digest cellulose (grass?)

    and I'll remind you that your claim is a hypothesis, not a fact ;) There's no proof that is what it used to be involved in.

    Or cornflakes - but they are not as tasty
  20. darth_frared Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 24, 2005
    star 5
    i think you are talking about big animals and ones that are visible to you. there is a number of species that can kill you in an instant and they don't ask your name before that. there is a huge number yet undiscovered which we don't even know how lethal they can potentially be. and we are by far outnumbered by insects on this planet. if they put their mind to it, they could kill us all, i'm pretty sure. they are pretty versatile.

    anyway, wrt dominance over others, it's part of our cultural upbringing that we perceive ouselves as superior to others, it has informed much of the westerner's conduct to this day, but it's not actually the case. if you put your mind to it, you will see that the weapon of mass destruction that we use to gain control over a species or an area will make outr life in that area also impossible. in the end we only kill ourselves. and animals have never been that stupid.

    i became a vegetarian because i wanted to reduce the amount of pain that i caused. because i had this idea that it can be minimized and while this doesn't hold water because i'm just a drop in the ocean, (ha! metaphor screwed up!) i still enjoy being a vegetarian. it sort of gives me moral superiority over meat-eaters which makes me feel bad in turn, but i also perceive myself as healthier than others. (which might not be true) it sort of has to do with an idea of purity that i used to have, about this state of not owing anyone anything, which can never be carried out in real life.
  21. barabel_humour Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2005
    star 4
    Regardless the point is that we still have appendix even though they no longer serve any function. :p

    Add raisins for a double boost of iron and extra flavour. And don't forget to use unsweetened soya milk. ;)

  22. AnakinsGirl Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 2, 2001
    star 4
    Big day for the history of soy. Researchers have found that Soy was once revered to help cure "hot flashes" during menopause and significantly reduce cholesterol, but that the health benefits are no where near this effective. While eating soy as an alternative to milk does prevent the intake of more cholesterol, the bean does very little to dramatically reduce your cholesterol levels, and there is no conclusive evidence that soy ever did anything for menopause.
    =D=
    I drink soymilk and all, but it is time America stopped obsessing over Soy. Every average middle-aged woman thought it was some miracle plant, and I'm glad we put it in its rightful place: it's good for you, but it is not a dramatic health solution.
  23. TheBoogieMan Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 14, 2001
    star 6
    Many other people have made my points for me (malkie especially, good work son. ;) ), but I'll just reinforce my point for Ender. Yes, no longer necessary. Sure, we are naturally designed to eat meat, but there are alternatives available, therefore it is no longer necessary.

    And forgive me, but if your girlfriends are feeling tired by 10, they simply aren't eating well. Please read my post about dieting as a vegetarian again.
  24. Aqua-Serenity Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 4, 2006
    star 1
    if God didnt want us to eat meat, he wouldnt have invented steak sauce ;)
  25. malkieD2 Ex-Manager and RSA

    Member Since:
    Jun 7, 2002
    star 7
    I'd disagree on that point.

    Try reading :-

    Medical Hypotheses, Volume 53, Issue 6, December 1999, Pages 459-485
    />

    or

    Medical Hypotheses, Volume 57, Issue 3, September 2001, Pages 318-323
    />

    or

    Medical Hypotheses, Volume 60, Issue 6, June 2003, Pages 784-792
    />

    All attribute health effects due to the increased intake of non-essential aminoacids found in soy!


    p.s. I'm still a meat eater./>/>/>/>/>/>
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