vegetarianism

But you'd make such a good vegetarian!

 

Yes, well, if you had read my entire post you would know that I cited a new research group thathas been doing studies for the pasr 10 years or so. I read about it in the paper and thought it was interesting. While using soy as an alternative is certainly better than milk, it does not dramatically decrease cholesterol levels, apparently.

 

Well, this is an interesting theme. I'm also a vegetarian, besides full vegeterian. In my opinion this is a personal choice which everybody has to do for himself. It is true that without eating meet and meet products the people loose a lot of useful and important ingredients but it is also true that there are people who just can't eat any sort of meat from their birth. So, I think it is our choice to decide.

 

"It is true that without eating meet and meet products the people loose a lot of useful and important ingredients "
-You obviously haven't done your homework and if you gave up meat thinking "I'll lose essential nutrients, but oh well", I have no idea why your decision is valid at all. If you do not *REPLACE* the nutrients that you lose from meat, you may become malnourished. It is not a difficult task! Read up about the benefits of certain veggies and fruits, and add them on accordingly. That's it.

Second of all, if you give up meat and don't even know how to spell it then why do you expect anyone to listen to you?

 

Cool it, AnakinsGirl. I assume English isn't his first language.

 

AnakinsGirl - we don't grade people here on spelling or grammar. Besides, his profile says he's from Bulgaria, and I'm guess that his English is better than your Bulgarian.

I did read your entire post, and you didn't cite anything. You mentioned a study, but didn't give us any further citation (ie link to the publication, reference, name of the research group, institute etc etc).

However, that point aside your comment on cholesterol is rather irrelevant. Some scientists believe it's important in health, while others have suggested it's role is overstated, and other factors are far more important.

Furthermore, you cannot deny the studies which I posted which specifically looked at mortality rates, and disease incidences in people who followed different diet plans. It's clearly a fact that vegetarian diets (and more so with vegan) result in reduced incidences of cancer and heart disease (the two biggest killers in the western world). The studies suggest that the increased soy in vegan/vegetarian diets are largely responsible for this improved health status.

Did you take the time to review the studies I linked to ? What is your opinion on their conclusions ? Can you offer an alternate explanation for their observations ?

 

Iron deficiency anaemia is what you are thinking of. It's where your haemoglobin has decreased to below the physiological reference ranges due to a lack of iron for creation of the haem central core of the haemoglobin molecule, thus causing tiredness due to a lack of oxygen distribution.

Personally I have zero problem with this. The unfortunate thing is that every day I get to see the results of people that decide to go down the path of a vegetarian lifestyle without thinking about what they are doing. Because they decide they don't need to think about what they are eating and thus suppliment one source of vitamins and minerals for another there goes the B12 and iron from the diet as red meat is the biggest (and for B12 pretty much only) natural source in the human diet. That's why I get to see all these teenage girls that would be borderline iron deficient at the best of times because of natural female physiology become completely iron deficient and wondering why they feel tired all the time.

 

Surely, ultimatly, its a case of everything is fine, in MODERATION? I really can't see that having a little bit of steak or chicken, or bacon, will cause any problem's (and in terms of Iron and other vitamins and minerals may even do a small amount of good?) and should be part of a healthy balanced diet. It also makes a differance how meat is cooked, for instance, fried bacon isn't good for you, so grilling it is far, far better.

We all know the health benefits of fish, so I like to have a fish dinner at least 3 times a week, and a meat dinner 3 times a week. And that leaves one night (Sunday) when I just have a light super.

I think a little bit of everything does you good (or doesn't do any harm) even meat.

 

Wow, why is it that I've been having to put my foot in my mouth repeated times this past week. I feel terrible for making a comment about someone's spelling when I didn't even bother to see if English was his first language. My deepest apologies.

As for the soy argument...I really don't care either way whether it's amazing for your health or not. I just thought it was an interesting study. Honestly, I read the studies you cited Malkie, but compared with my own, it seems like they are two studies that are exactly the opposite. I suppose I am undecided in my conclusions as I am now just thoroughly confused.

 

Soy in traditional Asian diets is usually fermented and eaten as a condiment, not as a protein replacement. There is evidence soy can adversely effect the thyroid, cause premature aging in the brain, and even harm the development of male fetuses (soy has phytoestrogens that may have a feminizing effect.) I can dig up the articles but a quick search on soy should lead you to them. I think soy can be a helpful additive for a healthy diet in limited quantities. I do, however, think there is enough evidence to not use soy as a total protein replacement, which a lot of vegetarians are currently doing.

 

But the point of being a vegetarian isn't to have a balanced diet, but to be (in the person's opinion) more ethically acceptable. It's the princpal of the thing. Personally I'd prefer to wither away and die rather than start eating meat, but that wouldn't be everyone's choice. Seriously. But then again I'm a pacifist as well so there are quite a few things I'd rather die than do.

 

I was commenting on the health benefits (or lack of) of eating meat.

Of course for the majority of vegeterians its an ethical and moral decision, and health effects are a secondary concern.

 

I am sorry, I understand that this thread is dedicated to vegetarian diets and such, but I have a question not entirely related to the topic, it's just because someone mentioned iron deficiency. I'll try to ask my question, may be you, educated people, can answer me, or give me a link to some article or study.

Recently I was told that my son has too much iron in his blood and haemoglobin is too high. Our doctor seemed surprised, because normally children with inflammatory bowel disease have low level of haemoglobin and iron, as they often suffer from colon bleeding. Our doctor said that high level of iron can lead to "haemachromatosis". I am not sure what this means, but she explained that it is when iron remains in all parts of the body - in lien, nephros, liver, etc, etc. But our doctor told me not to worry, to keep feeding him normally (including meat, apples, fish, oatmeal cereal, barley cereal, and all the other sources of iron). She said may be next time the biochemical blood test will show less iron.

I wanted to ask you if anyone knows more about such symptom (high level of iron), is it dangerous and how to deal with it. I'll appreciate if you can advise me where to read more about it.

P.S. I am sorry for my bad spelling. English is not my native language, plus I had to get up at 6 a.m. today and I feel a little tired. Thank you.

 

Personally, with auch an issue I would be more inclined to speak with your son's doctor/nutrisionist - there are other factors that your doctor will know about.


Back on topic.

Interesting fact sheet on Iron - to whit on people who clain you need meat to get it in proper amounts:

Protein Sources


Mg. Iron


Serving size


Calf Liver 12.4 3&1/2 oz.

Chick Peas 13.8 1 cup

Dark Chicken Meat 1.7 3&1/2 oz

Lean Hamburger 3.9 1 patty

Lean Sirloin 3.1 one slice

Interesting to note that chick peas contain more Iron even than "calf liver"

 

Thank you!

I follow all the prescriptions or my son's doctors. We came home from the hospital a month ago, and we spent there 10 days in December. The doctors examined him very carefully, made all the tests, and now we have new shedule of medication, new diet and a plan for further treatment. Yet I always read about my son's disease and about various diets, so that I can ask the doctor all the questions, and understand better what's going on with my child. It is difficult to explain... He has a rare disease, and he needs special care. I have a note-book where I write down different recipes of dietary food. I show it to our doctor and she tells me what is good for him, and what is not allowed. The doctor doesn't have time to look through all my big cooking book, but she can spend ten minutes with my small note-book with brief recipes and mark what is good with a " + ".

I read about "people who have a rare, genetic disease, hemochromatosis, in which they absorb too much iron" as I opened the link you gave me. Thank you! Now I know the correct spelling of this word (at least). I hope my son doesn't have it, it would be too much. Anyway, our doctor prescribed him calcium, and he consumes it with every meal, so I hope this will reduce the level of iron (I read about it on same page). So, thank you, I worry a little less now, that I understand more about why the doctor insisted on high dosage of calcium and vitamin D3. I thought it was only because of our rachitis, now I know that "calcium supplements also may decrease iron absorption".

Thanks!

~Shery~

 

Well I'm glad it helped!

 

Haemochromatosis (it can be spelt both ways, this is the English version, the other the US) is a disease that is characterised by the presence (either in heterozygosity or homozygosity) of one of 3 gene variants (can't remember immediately where the regions are) and presents with a persisting increase in iron stores with no corresponding outside trigger. Which gene you have a variant in, and whether it is heterozygous or homozygous, is going to have an impact on the severity of the symptoms shown. Most of the time, haemochromatosis has little effect with a sufficiently managed diet that doesn't have an excess of iron rich foods. Those who suffer from the worse end of the spectrum might have to undergo periodic venesection collections to remove circulating iron.

The major problem that is encountered with haemochromatosis is the build up of iron in places like the liver and kidneys. This leads to damage to the areas of the body it has occurred in, causing cirrhosis if it extends too far through the liver, and thus reduces the functionality of the liver. This is a build-up effect though and can be prevented when known about.


Given the brief details you have shared about your son's case, there are a few factors that would come into play. Since he is suffering from IBS there is a greater tendancy for lower haemoglobin levels and iron stores because of minor bleeding into the GI tract when flaring up and if ulcers appear, along with not absorbing the full amount in their food as most other people. That said he is suffering from an inflammatory disease which will lead to increases in various inflammation markers, one of which is ferritin, the same substance that iron is stored bound to. So increases in ferritin without a correspondingly high increase in free iron would not neccessarily indicate that haemochromatosis is the cause, even with the increase in haemoglobin as things like transient dehydration (ie not enough to be readily visible but enough to increase blood Hb) and the fact that children naturally have a higher Hb than adults could explain that. The only way in which to be sure is to do the genetic studies, but I don't know what the health care system is like in Russia(?). Breezy is right in that your doctor would likely have a better grasp on the situation that anyone else.


Breezy, as stated above all those figures, there are differences in how the body can absorb iron from different sources. Because iron is held in meat in a form that is very close to that of how the body uses it, the mechanisms are in place for recovery leading to almost 100% absorption, while the iron in chick peas is bound in differing forms and harder to get at because of the cellulose base of it. As with everything it is a matter of balance for the individual as each person has quirks in their physiology that will lend more towards specific things.

 

We have a normal health care system. We live in Moscow, here we have best doctors in the country, and I take my son to the best health centre for children. We have to pay much money for the treatment, but my husband earns enough, so we can afford it. I know there are cheap hospitals here too, but I prefer the expensive health centre, because I trust the doctors more there. They have better equipment, and better conditions for staying there when needed, also they provide best medicaments.
I know they do genetic studies there, and I am sure we can ask our doctor to do that for my son, if she decides it is necessary. I don't know how that is done, but I guess they do some blood test to see what they need to see. I hope so, because I wouldn't want any difficult procedure with general anesthesia (like colonoscopy) again.

Thank you very much for your response. I think I'll talk to our doctor next week, because I'll go to see her anyway, so I'll ask about genetic studies for iron storage disease.

~Shery~