main
side
curve
  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

vegetarianism

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by AnakinsGirl, Jan 6, 2005.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth-Zame43

    Darth-Zame43 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Not like ours no.

    But they do react and respond to environmental stimuli just as our nervous system allows us to do.


    the point I'm trying to get at is that plants do not feel pain, they do not think.

    Lets see we have the venus fly trap.
    We have the drosera or sundew.
    Then there is the pitcher plant, and bladderwort all of which cruely eat insects.


    Maybe they evolved that way because they did not have the ability to make their own food, like most plants do, so they had to take what ever was handed to them.

    So if plants can eat animals why can't we?

    How do veggitarians cope with this fact?


    plants do not have brains so they are unable to make decisions, again, the ones that do eat insects have to take what ever is handed to them. You have a brain, a body that can move itself around, you can walk around and plant food. Or you can eat or killing something, put in pain just because you like the taste.
     
  2. AnakinsGirl

    AnakinsGirl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2001
    if something has a margin of sentience, then i believe that it should not be eaten.

    plants still need to be respected, because they contribute to their delicate ecosystems. they are important, and you should see a tree and think, "that tree is worthless." but it doesnt mean that other plants can't be eaten. plants do not have instincts, do not think or feel.

    yes, they grow. yes their cells are, by the defenition, "alive". just because something is organic doesn't mean it is a breathing, sentient, conscious being.

    enough with the plants. seriously. you guys have no idea what youre talking about and think youre so very clever and can, like, stump the vegtarians or something.

    ***** ******.

    KK EDIT: The owners have requested that that phrase not be used except in its proper, religious or historical context.
     
  3. lomion

    lomion Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 22, 2004
    the point I'm trying to get at is that plants do not feel pain, they do not think.


    This is incorrect. Plants do feel pain. There are studies which prove this. One was a german study, the other was an english one. I can try and find them if you need.

    Death, and pain, are parts of life. In order to live something must die. I feel no remorse over something dying so I may live in regards to eating meat or veggies. That is part of the cycle of nature, and we humans are part of that cycle like it or not.
     
  4. Darth-Zame43

    Darth-Zame43 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2004
    This is incorrect. Plants do feel pain. There are studies which prove this. One was a german study, the other was an english one. I can try and find them if you need.

    It would be great if you could find them please. :) But as far as I know plants do not feel pain, they don't have a nervous system, they don't even have anything that closely resembles one...and without a brain to process the information even if it was in pain, these German and English scientists better have alot of evidence to back up their claim.

    There is no survival advantage for a plant to feel pain, so it is unlikely that they would have the ability to for no reason at all. Hey, but that's not saying that no plant feels pain, maybe there is some plant out there that benefits from its ability to feel pain.
     
  5. lomion

    lomion Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 22, 2004
    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-285331,00.html
     
  6. Darth-Zame43

    Darth-Zame43 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Thanks. The article doesn't prove that they feel pain, it just proves that the plant is trying to heal itself. When you get cut your blood doesn't clot to stop the pain, it clots to stop the loss of blood, your body is trying to heal and preserve itself. I imagine that plants are doing the same thing, trying to reduce the damage done.

    Interesting article though.

     
  7. lomion

    lomion Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 22, 2004
    WEll if you read further into the article they also talk about how the plants may be sending out danger signals to other plants nearby. If you want you can just say it's a reaction, but pain is a chemical response that has nothing to do with self-awareness in the animal kingdom.

    I don't see how it is so far-fetched that plant life can feel pain and react accordingly.
     
  8. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    WEll if you read further into the article they also talk about how the plants may be sending out danger signals to other plants nearby.

    Why? So they can run away? [face_laugh]
     
  9. Darth-Zame43

    Darth-Zame43 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2004
    WEll if you read further into the article they also talk about how the plants may be sending out danger signals to other plants nearby.

    I did read the entire article. Maybe it is sending a signal to itself, since a plant doesn't have a nervous system, it may have another way to communicate with itself. Is it so far fetched that a plant can send out a signal so that it knows that it needs to repair the damage done to it?

    If you want you can just say it's a reaction, but pain is a chemical response that has nothing to do with self-awareness in the animal kingdom.

    Awareness has everything to do with pain, or any feeling for that matter. You can have a deep cut, and not even realize it until you see that cut.

     
  10. lomion

    lomion Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 22, 2004
    Ever see an animal react in pain? That was my point. Animals are not considered sentient, self-aware beings like humans are. Yet they are still capable of feeling pain. Pain is an instinctual/chemical reaction, it has nothing to do with being able to think on any higher level.
     
  11. Darth-Zame43

    Darth-Zame43 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Ever see an animal react in pain? That was my point. Animals are not considered sentient, self-aware beings like humans are. Yet they are still capable of feeling pain. Pain is an instinctual/chemical reaction, it has nothing to do with being able to think on any higher level.

    Animal ARE self-aware, I don't know why humans think that they are so privileged. They are capable of feeling pain because they have Nervous Systems.
     
  12. lomion

    lomion Jedi Youngling star 3

    Registered:
    May 22, 2004
    Just so we are on the same page, this is how i define self-awareness:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-awareness

    Of course one could argue most people have a very limited self-awareness. ;) But fido does not have that capability. Nor does Bessie the Cow, or Bob the Fern.

     
  13. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    Demonstrating self-awareness is difficult, no matter what definition you use. I don't dismiss the idea of plants as self-aware; they exhibit reactions to stimuli and communication, so there's something going on. Perhaps it's all automated, essentially mechanical, but I don't know how one differentiates. Just because a plant does't have a recognizeable brain structure doesn't mean it's not self-aware, as our brain structure may not be the only key to self-awareness.

    But if plants' reactions to their environments are all mechanical, what's to say that animals' aren't as well, that they aren't simply reacting based upon a pre-programmed system without any actual thought or awareness of their own?

    For that matter, what about humans? I certainly don't have any way to know that the rest of you aren't simply biological automatons. I believe that I am not, but that may simply be an illusion created by the interaction of various predetermined systems.

    Self-awareness, an inherently internal process, is impossible to verify except indirectly. In terms of awareness, it's a matter of how we construct our definitions. But I don't know that it's easy to demonstrate a fundamental difference in awareness between plants and animals; we understand the animals better, as they're more like us, but the plants do have reactions to things, and I don't see why it's taken as fact without being verified that those reactions don't signify any sort of consciousness.

    -Paul
     
  14. Charn

    Charn Jedi Master star 8

    Registered:
    Dec 23, 2004
    never mind what I was trying to say, don't even know my self now. Anyway the point I was trying to make was eating meat is ok in the bible.
     
  15. darthOB1

    darthOB1 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2000
    Maybe they evolved that way because they did not have the ability to make their own food, like most plants do, so they had to take what ever was handed to them.

    Man cannot make their own food either. Its not like we have chlorophyl in our skin. So we also have to take whats handed to us. This includes fruits,vegetables,grains,and animals.

    plants do not have brains so they are unable to make decisions, again, the ones that do eat insects have to take what ever is handed to them.

    So what about eskimo's in the frozen arctic that cannot really grow foodstuff's year round? They have to take what ever is handed to them don't they?

    All they have are animals to sustain their lives.

    Do you make them up-root their way of living,their heritage and traditions because of some ethical code against eating animals?
    What about their rights,their freedoms,their feelings?

    Sounds to me like your establishing "rights" to plant that do not apply to humans because they have brains!

    Sounds like some kind of "universal discrimination" to me.

    You have a brain, a body that can move itself around, you can walk around and plant food. Or you can eat or killing something, put in pain just because you like the taste.

    Whatever! [face_frustrated]

    Yes, I eat meat souly for the taste and I am nothing more than mere caveman! :rolleyes:.

    Call me Ke-rock, the unforzen caveman lawyer! [face_laugh]

    Wrong! I eat meat because it provides nurishment for my body and gives me vitamins and minerals that todays, mass-produced,under-ripened produce cannot. The taste is only a bonus!



     
  16. Darth-Zame43

    Darth-Zame43 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2004
    Man cannot make their own food either. Its not like we have chlorophyl in our skin. So we also have to take whats handed to us. This includes fruits, vegetables, grains, and animals.

    You do not have to take what is handed to you, thank evolution for legs.

    So what about eskimo's in the frozen arctic that cannot really grow foodstuff's year round? They have to take what ever is handed to them don't they?

    ^above statement.

    Do you make them up-root their way of living,their heritage and traditions because of some ethical code against eating animals?
    What about their rights,their freedoms,their feelings?


    No, Making a living being do something they don't want to is what a human would do, and that is exactly what I advocate against. They have the right to do whatever they want, like any other animal on this planet, but that does not make what they do correct.

    Sounds to me like your establishing "rights" to plant that do not apply to humans because they have brains!

    Okay, lets work together, a nervous system and brain is what is required to feel and think; you've taken biology right? Every animal on this planet has both. A plant has neither, it cannot feel anything. Hit a metal pan with a spoon and that sound must be the pan crying out in pain.o_O

    Sounds like some kind of "universal discrimination" to me.

    The only people being prejudice are the people who think they have the right to put another being in pain. Sounds like some sort of "hypocrite" to me.

    Wrong! I eat meat because it provides nurishment for my body and gives me vitamins and minerals that todays, mass-produced,under-ripened produce cannot.

    Meat provides little nurishment, since almost every animal you are likely to eat is malnourished, beef and chicken are the only things being mass-produced. Do not eat a fruit or vegetable when it is not ripe then. They ripen on their own and provide better nurishment without the harmful side effects that plague dead animals.

    The taste is only a bonus!

    You taste the seasonings, and other things they put on the meat, not the meat itself.
     
  17. darthOB1

    darthOB1 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2000
    [image=http://img89.exs.cx/img89/2017/spocklogic5ev.jpg]
    Your reasoning is completely contradictory and thus flawed!

    Here's why.

    Darth-Zame43:
    You do not have to take what is handed to you, thank evolution for legs.


    You claim evolution gave us legs. How do you figure these legs are just for walking and squating to plant seeds and not for running to catch and hunt animals?

    You cannot!


    darthOB1:
    So what about eskimo's in the frozen arctic that cannot really grow foodstuff's year round? They have to take what ever is handed to them don't they?

    Darth-Zame43:
    ^above statement. .


    So you are implying that they have the ability to move were they can plant food instead of hunt it, right?

    You then replied to this question:

    darthOB1:
    Do you make them up-root their way of living,their heritage and traditions because of some ethical code against eating animals?
    What about their rights,their freedoms,their feelings?


    Darth-Zame43:
    No, Making a living being do something they don't want to is what a human would do, and that is exactly what I advocate against.


    First of all this doesn't even answer my qustion, and second it doesn't even make sense! :confused:

    Are you implying that humans who make humans move their lives,up-root their heritage and move to a place were they can grow food, is what your against?
    This is exactly what you are saying!
    Kind of self-deafeating statement don't you think?
    Or are you not human? Which is it?

    You also impied they have legs and that they can move, yet you do not believe they should be forced to up-root their way of living, so how can you condem them or anyone from eating meat? If you justify that they can but I cannot, then your justifying prejudice on a grand scale

    Darth-Zame43:
    They have the right to do whatever they want, like any other animal on this planet, but that does not make what they do correct.


    So what makes your way of living your life any better than theirs or mine? Because you say so? Because you have greater empahthy for the "suffering" of animals?

    RIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT....... :rolleyes:

    The only people being prejudice are the people who think they have the right to put another being in pain. Sounds like some sort of "hypocrite" to me.

    Who says the animals I eat were in pain? The slaughter process is quite quick and painless so that the meat does not absorb adrenaline and thus taint the meat.

    Either way your arguments are meaningless.

    Meat provides little nurishment, since almost every animal you are likely to eat is malnourished, beef and chicken are the only things being mass-produced.


    OMG! Are you serious! [face_laugh]

    So your saying the beef and chicken I eat is malnourished?

    PPOR!

    Your propaganda is astounding!

    I will as you to provide a source for this claim if you can, one that is not from a vegetarian propaganda site please, but one that is an actual scientific study.

    Do not eat a fruit or vegetable when it is not ripe then. They ripen on their own and provide better nurishment without the harmful side effects that plague dead animals.

    You've obviously never had produce that was grown in an area were the growing season only lasts 4 months, have you? And unfortunatly the produce were I live is like this and this is all I can get in the supermarkets.

    So are you proposing that I now need to up-root my life and move my family to an area were the produce is better because I have legs?

    You taste the seasonings, and other things they put on the meat, not the meat itself.

    You have never been more wrong!
    Your reasoning shows an incredible lack of thought!

    I taste the meat. That is why I don't like gamier meats such as bison and elk, because they taste much stronger, are more bitter and they do not appeal to me.

    And I only salt my meat, which only enhanc
     
  18. Darth-Zame43

    Darth-Zame43 Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Mar 6, 2004
    You claim evolution gave us legs. How do you figure these legs are just for walking and squating to plant seeds and not for running to catch and hunt animals?

    You cannot!


    1st I'm going to use common sense, that's how I am going to prove it. I have never seen a human chase down a deer with his own legs. If he doesn't have an unfair advantage of using a gun, he has to put defenseless creatures in a cage to kill them at will. Again, you know something is in pain and you harm it anyways? Sadist.

    So you are implying that they have the ability to move were they can plant food instead of hunt it, right?

    Yes, that and there is already a large amount of plant life available, hell throw the seeds back in the dirt after your done with it, it won't hurt.

    First of all this doesn't even answer my qustion, and second it doesn't even make sense!

    Are you implying that humans who make humans move their lives,up-root their heritage and move to a place were they can grow food, is what your against?
    This is exactly what you are saying!
    Kind of self-deafeating statement don't you think?
    Or are you not human? Which is it?

    You also impied they have legs and that they can move, yet you do not believe they should be forced to up-root their way of living, so how can you condem them or anyone from eating meat? If you justify that they can but I cannot, then your justifying prejudice on a grand scale


    So it's self defeating for me to repeat the fact that I will not harm another living creature, and force them to do what they don't want to? I never said that a human should be forced to do anything. Since you all have "superior" brain power you would think somebody would use it once in a while. I am saying they have the choice to kill an animal, or eat food; they are making the wrong choice.

    So what makes your way of living your life any better than theirs or mine? Because you say so? Because you have greater empahthy for the "suffering" of animals?

    RIIIIIIIIIIIIGHT.......


    Never did I say it was better, but it's on the right track. Less suffering is better.

    Who says the animals I eat were in pain? The slaughter process is quite quick and painless so that the meat does not absorb adrenaline and thus taint the meat.

    Again, people thinking they are so privileged. Pain is not just physical, can you imagine the things that would be going through your head if it was about to get chopped off. Or standing there in a cage, waiting to die, not much better.

    OMG! Are you serious!

    So your saying the beef and chicken I eat is malnourished?


    Yeah, pretty much, and I'm not wrong.

    Your propaganda is astounding!

    I will as you to provide a source for this claim if you can, one that is not from a vegetarian propaganda site please, but one that is an actual scientific study.


    Look it up yourself, you have a brain, and your not going to learn if I provide all the answers for you. Rarely have I ever been to a "vegetarian propaganda site", but I would sooner trust them than an organization that wants me to buy their product.

    You've obviously never had produce that was grown in an area were the growing season only lasts 4 months, have you? And unfortunatly the produce were I live is like this and this is all I can get in the supermarkets.

    So are you proposing that I now need to up-root my life and move my family to an area were the produce is better because I have legs?


    Your life should have never been "rooted" in the first place. Family is just as stupid of an idea as many other human concepts. Organizations have caused nothing but suffering on this planet.

    What is wrong is when they claim to have higher moral standard and look down on me because of my choice to eat meat!

    I do not look down on them, but I am disgusted by the behavior, I'm not going to say I'm not. And if somebody knows your doing something wrong what can you expect from them, other than them shaking their heads.

    It is my claim that no vegitarian
     
  19. darthOB1

    darthOB1 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2000
    1st I'm going to use common sense, that's how I am going to prove it.

    But your common sense, if thats what you wanna call it, is not common.

    First of all I don't believe in evolution, and secondly I believe 90% of those who do would higly disagree with you on this subject.

    Yes, that and there is already a large amount of plant life available, hell throw the seeds back in the dirt after your done with it, it won't hurt.

    Can you read? I was talking about Eskimo's who live in areas were they cannot plant food. Do plants grow under the ice, in sub zero weather?

    WOW that one went way over your head I guess. :eek:

    So it's self defeating for me to repeat the fact that I will not harm another living creature, and force them to do what they don't want to?

    How the heck do you what they want? Seriously, how the heck to you know?
    I guess you've talked to them right?

    Don't give me the bull about nobody/nothing wants to be killed either.

    Since you all have "superior" brain power you would think somebody would use it once in a while. I am saying they have the choice to kill an animal, or eat food; they are making the wrong choice.

    Again we, or at least I was talking about the Eskimo's. Stop making it a general argument when we are supposed to be discussing this specific example.

    Now with that in mind, what choices do they have? They cannot grow plants in the arctic areas were they live? Do you understand that? What part of this am I not making clear?

    Never did I say it was better, but it's on the right track. Less suffering is better

    Who says they suffer? You? A bunch of vegetarians that claim they do? Oh yeah I forgot you can communicate with them. :rolleyes:

    Again, people thinking they are so privileged. Pain is not just physical, can you imagine the things that would be going through your head if it was about to get chopped off. Or standing there in a cage, waiting to die, not much better.

    [face_laugh]

    Who in the heck made the discovery that they actually know they are going to be slaughtered? How do they know that? If they know that why don't they do something about it like escape? Put up a fight? Stop eating?

    That has to be the most rediculous thing I've heard in this thread! [face_laugh]

    Oh yeah, you know because you've talked to them personally, sorry I forgot.

    Look it up yourself, you have a brain, and your not going to learn if I provide all the answers for you. Rarely have I ever been to a "vegetarian propaganda site", but I would sooner trust them than an organization that wants me to buy their product.

    I'm not going to waist my time looking for something that doesn't exist.


    Your life should have never been "rooted" in the first place. Family is just as stupid of an idea as many other human concepts. Organizations have caused nothing but suffering on this planet.


    [face_laugh] Oh now your just being plain stupid.

    Sorry THIS is the most rediculous thing I've heard in this thread! :eek: [face_laugh] [face_plain]


    No, because you eat animals and food, where areas I eat food. I'm not going to slaughter something for somebody elses pleasure. Eat to live, don't live to eat.

    Thats funny because I don't slaughter my food either. I purchase it at the local grocery store; guess what, just like you or your mommy does.

    I understand that you were raised to believe what you are doing is right. I know that it isn't. Do less asking and more searching.

    How do you know it isn't right?
    Who told you?
    God tells me that it is ok to eat meat?
    So who and what is your authority?



     
  20. J-Rod

    J-Rod Jedi Grand Master star 6

    Registered:
    Jul 28, 2004
    Rarely have I ever been to a "vegetarian propaganda site", but I would sooner trust them than an organization that wants me to buy their product.

    I'll bet PETA has a site...

     
  21. AnakinsGirl

    AnakinsGirl Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 2, 2001
    darthOB1: umm vegetables are not "mass-produced". they are...GROWN. and often times grown by cross-breeding and other chemicals to make them grow faster, bigger, and riper, not scrawnier and less nutritious(sp?). so i ahve no idea where that claim came from. and you can get all the nourishments that animals give you in plants. every single one. you can get protein, amino acids, vitamins, minerals...you name it. in fact, plants provide you with a waider variety of nutrients than meat does, the meat industry just makes it seem like the nutrients you get from their product is HUGELY essential. while it is important, they neglect to say that you can get it in a ton of other plants, too.


    EDIT:
    yes, companies that want you to buy their product will go to far more lengths than vegetarian propoganda. the dairy industry tells us all sorts of things about calcium; in fact, while calcium is a good nutrient to have, there is actually little solid evidence that proves that it is *essential* for development. but they spend millions of dollars telling you otherwise.


    if it is a strong cultural or regional concern, then eating meat cannot be bad. eating meat is only "bad" when you take something that is living, breathing and sentient and treat it like a biological machine,merely for profit.

    PROFIT.

    thats what the meat/dairy industry does. money. money money money money. avoiding buying a product that supports a corrupt and hurtful industry is different than going to the local meat market in iceland because it is too cold to grow plants. when something's life and existence has been completely stripped of all respect and worth so that corporate executives can get rich off of another creatures suffering, and putting the public's health at risk, then yes buying meat is especially wrong.

    i've said this over and over and over again. and people only reply with : "yeah well...CARROTS FEEL TOO!!"
     
  22. darth_paul

    darth_paul Jedi Master star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 24, 2000
    That has to be the most rediculous thing I've heard in this thread!

    ***

    Oh now your just being plain stupid.

    Sorry THIS is the most rediculous thing I've heard in this thread!
    DarthOB1, does this actually help anything? Does it further the spirit of mutual learning? Does it promote discussion? You're one of perhaps three people who I see say this kind of thing moderately frequently and it's really starting to get to me.

    Besides how rude and innconsiderate it shows you to be, I have to say that when someone else makes a point and you quote it and then start saying how stupid he is but never make any really solid explanaiton of why he's wrong, I start to give a lot more validity to his point than I otherwise would have.

    You do actually at least challenge his point on the issue of whether animals know they are to be slaughtered, although the fact that you had a real response made all the insults and full-of-yourself emoticons rather pointless and responsible for nothing except lowering the tone of the discussion. But until I see evidence to the contrary I'm going to procede under the assumption that you don't have any defense whatsoever for the existence of family's continued existence or its merits and are simply trying to distract from that fact by waving your arms and sticking out your tongue, essentially.

    It's difficult to respect someone who shows such discourtesy toward his fellow forum members. If you do have points about things like why family's not a bad thing, you should make them rather than insulting the poster who brought it up. Challenging assumptions is a good thing, and, while you're free to disagree, there's absolutely no ignorance implied by, for instance, challenging the existence of family; if anything, it shows that the poster has the commendable intellectual strength to break out of the molds that society pushes everyone into.

    If you feel so strongly about things like family that you see the point as self-evident, why not explain the reasons for the rest of us so that we can say "Yeah, that's right, it does make sense like that." But calling people stupid, overusing those annoying smilies in a manner designed to mock or insult -- it weakens any point you might possibly be trying to make, makes me want to have a go at your position even when I agree with you, and, worst of all, it lowers the level of discourse around here. Can't we have a civil, thorough, and profound conversation without having to resort to evading the issues and calling names?

    -Paul
     
  23. Cyprusg

    Cyprusg Jedi Padawan star 4

    Registered:
    Nov 16, 2002
    You're one of perhaps three people who I see say this kind of thing moderately frequently

    *whistles*
     
  24. darthOB1

    darthOB1 Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Mar 22, 2000
    AnakinsGirl


    darthOB1: umm vegetables are not "mass-produced". they are...GROWN. and often times grown by cross-breeding and other chemicals to make them grow faster, bigger, and riper, not scrawnier and less nutritious(sp?)

    Yeah, but they are GROWN in such a way that maximizes yeild, not quality. They are often harvested unripened and waxed and died to make them appear better then they usually are. Oranges & apples are such examples.
    It is also interesting you use the word chemicals.
    This is the same word many anti-meat people use to claim meat is unhealthy.

    Double-standard perhaps?

    But perhaps I didn't make my self clear. I live in a state were the growing season is 4-5 months long. My state buys, I would estimate 80-90% of its produce locally, from the local areas and farmers. The quality of fruits and vegetables are terrible. The taste of a Colorado tomaoto compaired to an Indiana tomatoe is quite dramatic, whether its due to the growing season or the soil, I don't know. I do know that there is a huge difference. The difference between a Colorado apple and a Washington apple is also quite striking.
    To make a long story short, the produce taste less and to me that makes them have less nutrients and substances that make them taste like they are supposed to. Does this make sense? ..............Anyway.

    while calcium is a good nutrient to have, there is actually little solid evidence that proves that it is *essential* for development. but they spend millions of dollars telling you otherwise.

    While I admit that there are alternative sources of getting calcium such as in pill form, I disagree with you entirerly!

    Calcium has been proved an essential mineral for bone growth, and the prevention of osteoperosis(?sp). My three daughters pediatrican, not someone from the animal industry, told them to drink lots of milk to get the needed calcium intake.
    Calcium is also needed in order for the body to absorb ascorbic acid or vitamin C.

    PROFIT.
    thats what the meat/dairy industry does. money. money money money money. avoiding buying a product that supports a corrupt and hurtful industry is different than going to the local meat market in iceland because it is too cold to grow plants. when something's life and existence has been completely stripped of all respect and worth so that corporate executives can get rich off of another creatures suffering, and putting the public's health at risk, then yes buying meat is especially wrong


    Name me one industry in this world that does not have greedy, money hungry CEO's that do not want to make profits.
    Name me one. Its not a problem of just the meat industry its global commercialism, and it ain't gonna end until Armageddon is over with.

    darth_paul


    DarthOB1, does this actually help anything? Does it further the spirit of mutual learning? Does it promote discussion? You're one of perhaps three people who I see say this kind of thing moderately frequently and it's really starting to get to me.

    Look, I admit that my choice of words was probably poor. And I apologize to Darth-Zame43 if I hurt his feelings, but really come on, think a little bit before you post, thats all I ask.

    Besides how rude and innconsiderate it shows you to be, I have to say that when someone else makes a point and you quote it and then start saying how stupid he is but never make any really solid explanaiton of why he's wrong, I start to give a lot more validity to his point than I otherwise would have

    Please enlighten me.


    You do actually at least challenge his point on the issue of whether animals know they are to be slaughtered, although the fact that you had a real response made all the insults and full-of-yourself emoticons rather pointless and responsible for nothing except lowering the tone of the discussion.

    Gee maybe you should contact the mods and have the emoticons removed from these boards so the conversation is color-less. Comments like this ju
     
  25. halibut

    halibut Ex-Mod star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 27, 2000
    Totally agree with DarthOB1

    To me, saying that families are a stupid idea makes me lose all interest in DarthZane's arguments. It IS a ridiculous thing to say, and DarthOB1 says 90% will agree. To me, that is a VAST understatement.

    If someone wants to promote vegetarianism, slagging off the concept of family is sure the wrong way to go about it. I'd go as far to say that that sort of argument frankly gives vegetarians a very bad name. I sincerely hope that other vegetarians don't feel that way!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.