Saga Viewing order

I do think it's a very relevant point to the discussion, though. Knowing what will happen is obviously going to color your opinion of the characters because it puts them in a different context. I feel starting with the PT is fairer because then you get to meet everyone with no preconceptions. Sure, you might know more about Luke's family history than Luke himself does in ANH, but you also get to meet the character for the first time in ANH as well, regardless of if you started with TPM or not. If you start with the OT, though, what the characters will become is always going to be a shadow over what they are now. And I think there's something to be said for meeting everyone without baggage.

 

You assume rather broadly, PH.

 

I just think the characters are better served by being seen solely as they are now, without the shadow of what they will become hanging over them. If you start with the PT, all of the characters get this chance. If you start with the OT, then this is true for Han, Luke, and Leia, but less so for Anakin or Obi-Wan.

 

That's your right. I think you give some too little credit.

 

I don't think it's a matter of credit, though, just a matter of fact. Whichever movie you start with is your first impression of a character right?

 

I don't dispute that. I dispute that watching PT first will equal what you're implying.

 

What do you believe I'm implying? I thought what I said was pretty much a matter of fact. Han, Luke, and Leia aren't in the PT (except as babies) and so you can't color your perception of them by watching the PT first. That's not an implication so much as it is a fact. On the contrary, though, Anakin and Obi-Wan are both in the OT (and Padmé is referenced) and I think they would be better served to be introduced without having the audience aware of what they will become because this does determine one's first impression.

 

That's quite clear. I am simply saying I don't agree. Good evening.

 

I guess I'm just not sure what you don't agree with?

It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of fact.

If you watch a film about a struggling art student in Vienna with some teenagers, you'll get different responses depending on whether or not you tell them beforehand that the film is about Hitler, don't you agree? (Yeah..Nazi analogy, I know, but the Empire is basically Nazis in space, so I think it fits.)

 

You just said it. It is a matter of opinion that you treat as fact. As I said I think you assume overly much and give some too little credit. Besides Viewing the OT first is not the only possible 'baggage' a viewer may have that will inform how they take a character.

 

I guess I just don't see how it's a matter of opinion. How is the PT supposed to color one's view of Luke, Han, and Leia when they don't even appear in the films? And are you saying that first impressions don't matter at all? That context doesn't matter? I mean, I think it's pretty much a fact that your first impression of a person is going to influence how you view them. How could it not? That doesn't mean you're incapable of re-evaluating though.

If you watch the PT first then, of course, you are going to have baggage associated with Obi-Wan and Vader going into the OT. But considering the PT happened in the past, those are actions that the characters have already performed and are aware of. So it's part of who they are rather than being in a distant future that they have no understanding of.

 

This again? Really, PiettsHat?




Ha ha, and what could Han/Leia possibly have to do with the "viewing order"? I mean, really…..*sigh*

Back on-topic: I think this poll should have a third option: First watch OT, then stop completely.

Unless the ST turns out to be really good. Then you could follow it up with that.

 

I already explained the relevance of the point: that Padmé doesn't know Anakin will become Darth Vader, unlike a lot of the audience. She doesn't have the same information that we do and yet she's lambasted and criticized quite heavily whereas Leia's support of Han isn't, even though Han has done some pretty atrocious things in his past. It's unfair to color the characters based on a future they don't know about is all I'm saying.

 

Yes, again, what does that have to do with "viewing order" of the saga? I still don't see the connection. And I'm beginning to think you're more obsessed with Han and Leia than I am.

 

I'll break this down.

If you watch the OT first, then you are aware that Anakin will become Darth Vader. Thus, when watching the PT, his every action is put into a different context than if one had started with the PT. It's like I mentioned above -- watch a film about an Austrian student with some teenagers and they will have a different response to the main character depending on whether or not you tell them that character is Hitler.

What I'm saying is, people are often tearing into Padmé for supporting Anakin. But, she has no way of knowing that he would become Darth Vader. Yes, what he did was horrific, but the circumstances surrounding his actions were extremely horrific as well. And, it seems to me, that Padmé is judged more harshly when she should be given a bit of slack given that everything she knew about Anakin from that point indicated that he was fighting for good -- helped her out as a kid, saved her people, served with the Jedi for over a decade, and saved her life. Does she really deserve to be torn to shreds for giving him the benefit of the doubt? Because I see that happen quite often while no one gets on freedom-loving Leia's case for taking up with a guy who chose to work for a slaver and gangster. I'm not saying that Leia deserves criticism for that, given that everything Han did to help them. But I do think that, with this thought in mind, Padmé shouldn't be torn to shreds over her choice either.

And it's why I advocate watching the PT first. Because then, you don't have more information than Padmé going in. The characters don't have the shadow of what they will become hanging over them.

 

Ah, but it could also be argued that the shadow of Darth Vader hanging over the PT actually enriches the experience from the get-go. There was a post in the Visual Links thread which illustrates it beautifully:

Look familiar?

 

Knowing the end game but not how we got to the end game makes the OT then PT style work for me.

 

Sure, but these are things that one can also catch after the fact and, in my opinion, they aren't made less powerful just because one doesn't notice them upon first viewing. In fact, given how much symbolism there is, I'd say it's almost impossible to notice it all the first time around.

Plus, I think there's something to be said for going back, once you've finished the Saga, and seeing how many of these beautiful visual symbols you missed.

This isn't an area where I'd say one is hurt by watching the PT first -- it's not like you "miss out" on it since almost no one will catch everything during their first viewing. That's what makes subsequent viewings fun!

 

Well said, Nub.

PH: It's clear you're not understanding me so I will just let it be. We disagree.

 

There are so many new little details that I notice with every new rewatching its not funny.

 

True, but even putting aside the deeper symbolism you yourself pointed out in that shot (which few, if any, would spot first time), it was made more powerful for me the first time I saw TPM simply because I had an understanding of just who Palps would become - he's not just another bad guy, he's as bad as they get. The happy ending was then underlined with a sense of doom.

Personally, I prefer and would recommend the OT then PT viewing order partly because the foreknowledge of what's going to happen in the PT makes it more powerful, and also because I like the way the Saga 'ends' by coming full circle, rather than proceeding in a straight linear fashion - which does work, of course, I just don't think it's as effective.

As far as the matter of the ST is concerned, I have a feeling that it's going to feel more like an epilogue to the existing Saga, or a separate entity altogether, despite the presence of the Big Three, so that won't upset the circular viewing option of the six-episode Saga.

 

The first and third paragraph are fine. It's the second one where you lose me. What does the tendency of fans 'tearing Padme to shreds" have to do with "viewing order." Are you saying that if fans watched the PT first that wouldn't happen? Okay, but I doubt it.

But more to my original point, what does Han and Leia have to do with it? Nothing. They're just thrown in as if contrasting the two couples somehow supports your point--which again, kinda digresses from the original topic in the first place. Just sayin'. I don't want to turn this into a huge debate. I was merely pointing out that it almost seems like you have a fixation with voicing your Han/Leia views in threads, even when the conversation doesn't even remotely call for it. Sorry. That's just my take.

And hey, I don't care if you don't like them. That's not the point. Only, maybe these views would be more appropriate in a thread like: "Han and Leia: Why they suck" or "Why is Padme unfairly bashed by fans while Leia gets a free pass?" etc. But "viewing order"---um yeah, what?

But seriously, let's not hijack another thread. That is absolutely the last thing I intended when I made that off-the-cuff post.

 

Because I think the viewing order does play a role in how much people can empathize with Padmé. Because when you watch the OT first, you have a different context to Anakin's actions than she does. If you watch the OT first, then you are very much aware that this will be but the first of a long and terrible line of crimes that Anakin will commit. If you watch the PT first, then the Tusken slaughter doesn't have that wider context. Up until that point, Anakin has only ever fought for good.

I brought up Han and Leia because I think this is an example where fans have exactly the same context as Leia and thus they can more easily overlook some of the bad things Han has done. Yes, Han worked for a slaver and gangster, but he also saved Leia and the Rebellion and put himself on the line for them. Which is why Leia getting together with him is never really that controversial for most fans. We have the same information about Han that Leia does.

But with Padmé that's not the case and I think that watching the PT first eliminates that discrepancy. Because when you have only seen TPM and AOTC, when the Tusken slaughter occurs, you don't have Darth Vader's shadow hanging over everything.

 

Okay, so…..you're arguing, what? That if we didn't know that Anakin would go on to slaughter Jedi and Force-choke underlings on whim, then maybe we would've been more empathetic when he slaughtered the sand people? Are you serious? Honey, that would *still* be a deal breaker for me. I don't care if the man went on to feed orphans on some draught-ravaged planet after that. And yes, that should've *still* set off alarm bells for Padme. So, no. I would argue that "viewing order" would not change how fans perceive him or her.

*sigh* Nothing Han "has done" even remotely compares with what Anakin did---even as far as Episode II. Even if they remotely *did* compare (and they totally don't--if you even wanna argue this, I beg you to just re-read the countless arguments we've already had re: Han's character. Please. Seriously). But even if they came close, Leia is falling for Han on the upswing--he's maturing, redeeming himself, and has grown a lot even between ANH and ESB. And fans can see that. While Padme is clearly latching her car to an impending train-wreck. And no, you don't have to see Episode III or IV to V or VI to think that falling for a guy who whines and bitches constantly and slaughters a tribe of tuskan raiders (Not just the men--but the women and children too!!!--he admits to her) is NOT a good idea. If she had a parental figure in her life, you can bet they would've tried to pry those two apart ASAP.

So my longwinded point (in an attempt to stay on topic) is that no, I don't think viewing the PT first would necessarily change fans' views of her.

But it should lighten your heart to know, that if I were to recommend the saga to anyone, I would tell them to skip the PT entirely and go straight to the OT. So, any potential new fans that were made under my watch wouldn't have negative opinions of Padme at all. In fact, they wouldn't have any opinion of her.

 

Essentially, that people would, like Padmé, give Anakin the benefit of the doubt. He didn't run into that camp swinging. He just wanted his mother back, he snuck in and tried to save her. He had been having hyper-reaslitic visions of her being tortured for a month and then she died in his arms while the perpetrators sat outside. He was in such pain that he completely lost control and attacked. Pain so powerful that Yoda could feel it across the galaxy. And Anakin broken down crying over his actions and accepted that they were wrong.

Han, by contrast, freely worked for a gangster and slaver simply out of greed -- for money. And he never shows the slightest bit of regret over helping to prop up a regime that regularly enslaved innocent women and fed them to the Rancor.

Of the two situations, I can more easily see myself becoming violent after I had a loved one tortured to death than working for a slaver just to make some cash. I would honestly rather do basically any other job than that.

And I do agree that Anakin's behavior and Padmé's response are worthy of criticism, but this is brought up constantly whereas Han and Leia's behavior never is.

Essentially, how this relates to viewing order is that I would argue that this difference in response is largely because Anakin and Padmé are not given the benefit of the doubt because, right from the get-go, viewers were aware that he would become Darth Vader and this changed the context of his actions. They see what he will become rather than what he is and how Anakin still has the potential to be better at this stage.

That's your choice. But I find it interesting that you would recommend they skip the PT. I've always felt that people should be allowed to make up their own minds rather than have others decide for them. But then, I think the entire question of viewing order should be resolved by the person who is going to watch the film.