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ST Villain/Evil Archetypes Of The ST

Discussion in 'Sequel Trilogy' started by thejeditraitor, Jan 20, 2018.

  1. Shadao

    Shadao Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Oct 31, 2017
    The problem with ST villains is that all of them have been made into jokes one way or another, and these jokes were made far too early. General Hux is the type of character that I would find naturally comedic. A neo-Nazi whose ideology and devotion to the First Order is already ridiculous and something to make fun of. I laughed when he made that Hitler-esque speech in TFA. But, however, I also know that he is threatening and dangerous because he genuinely believes in the nonsense he's spouting. He is dangerous because of the lengths he is willingly to go to get what he wants. But the moment he is made into the butt of the jokes by Poe in TLJ, all of that momentum is completely loss. Instead of laughing at his ideology, we are laughing at him in general. This would be okay for a propaganda piece by the Resistance, but it severely undercuts Hux himself as a legitimate threat in the actual story. By making Hux into a joke, we go from fearing the First Order to wondering how could they be a threat in the first place and why is the writers giving them victories that they did not earn.

    Had they reframed Hux from being a joke until the moment when Kylo Ren chokes him into submission after becoming the next Supreme Leader, it would have kept Hux as a legitimate threat for the audience to worry about the Resistance and reward them when he finally gets what he deserves. It worked for Fire Lord Ozai in ATLA. He was played seriously and was never the butt of the jokes until he was finally defeated by Aang at the series finale. Once that happens, the humiliation begins (mocked by children) and the experience is rewarding rather than puzzling. Had Ozai been made into a joke before his final confrontation with Aang, it would have severely undermined his credibility as a threat and the grand finale wouldn't be half as powerful.
     
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  2. Game3525

    Game3525 Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jun 25, 2008
    Kylo isn't sympathetic at all IMO. Like someone said earlier, they make a big deal of him being conflicted, but they never really show him being conflicted and us (the audience) doesn't even know what caused him to fall. Even without the PT, you could sympathize with Vader in ROTJ because of his relationship with Luke. The audience understands familial relationships. It is the main reason why Vader's redemption works even without the PT.

    Kylo doesn't have any of that. The ST tries to mimic the Vader/Luke dynamic with him and Rey, but it doesn't really work since they don't have much of a relationship and can't fall back on being related.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  3. Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid

    Jedi_Sith_Smuggler_Droid Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Mar 13, 2014
    From what we see in The Last Jedi, it's obvious Hux is not much of a military commander. Maybe we'll find out that Hux has actual talent and skill as a politician.

    After the Hyper Space Battleship Attack, Death of Snoke, and events on Crait - Kylo Ren and Hux could have some work to do regaining the loyalty of the First Order.
     
  4. Force Smuggler

    Force Smuggler Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Sep 2, 2012
    I'd like a villain that has a friendship-type thing with the main character. Think President Snow and Katniss from the Hunger Games.
    "I think it would be best, if we agreed not to lie to one another." Their first conversation and their last conversation.
    Or a protagonist and antagonist that despise each other but when someone else attacks them, they unite to defeat their outside force.
     
  5. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I don’t think people have fully grasped what a massive blow losing Carrie was to this trilogy.

    It’s Leia’s son that’s the villain and she was being saved for the last film after we already saw he couldn’t kill her. It doesn’t take a genius to imagine that they could have had some amazing moments with her and Rey both being the people who bring him back to the Light.

    Her passing hurts this saga’s planning sooooo much. The bond between a Mom and son is special and was obviously going to be explored.
     
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  6. Harbour

    Harbour Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Sep 15, 2015
    Exactly. In both TFA and TLJ they failed to show what is behind Kylo's burning desire to be bad. I believe behind every human being by default stand the desire and need to be normal and highly moral. People do bad stuff only for a solid reason or due to some mental illness.

    Anakin did bad stuff because of the whole system of reasons. He is the trained Jedi with fixed moral code and basically a usual normal man, so its absolutely effective and normal to see him not wanting to execute Dooku in Ep3.
    Look, thats how you believe in "Light pulling me back"(i still can't comprehend the meaning of this phrase, Light dont make people do stuff, its people decide what to do) type of situation. Here you believe in it.
    And remember Anakin/Padme scene in their room. When Anakin told her "I want more. And i know i shouldn't. Thats not the Jedi way", we perfectly understand him after numerous scenes show us that he totally believes he is the Chosen One, he is powerful and thus arrogant. "Yeah, thats another reason why he turned bad", - i think.
    Thats not the Kylo's case. In case of Kylo i can't understand why he even want to be a bad guy, how exactly the abstract Light Side pull him back if its technically impossible, thats not how the Force works, and why they even created that confusing concept of the character. The phrases like "There is too much Vader in him" sounds like vague bull****. Anakin was the good guy, normal man, broken by very certain set of circumstances and desires. These things dont belong to DNA to be passed to Kylo.

    I often hear the comparisons between Zuko and Kylo, and while i think they are an absolutely different characters, i should point out that Zuko arc, his reasoning, his motivation and story is much more believable, engaging and understandable than Kylo one.
    The mommy's boy, raised as a good man, faced with brutal reality of father-tyrant and psychotic sister, and due to young age, sense of pride and hight morality met father in duel and got face burned. Understandable desire to be acknowledged by father fights with high morality during all season, until the healthy sense and good heart took over that desire. He understood father doesnt deserve the sacrifice of Zuko's should and humanity. Morality given by mother win over him. Thats engaging and perfectly executed conflicted character arc.

    What does Kylo have? Uncle with ignited lightsaber towering him while he is sleeping? Okay, the only believable reaction of human being would be shock and fear. Given his snowflake nature Kylo would run away from Luke to Leia and Han searching for protection. He wouldnt destroy the whole academy right away. Thats nonsense.
    And what is his reason to turn bad? They didn't show us he wants the power or there was some leverage for Snoke to recruit him. I dont count Luke's attempt to murder him as one. In well written stories with well written characters they dont start to kill people just because someone wanted to kill them.
    By well written i mean the stories and characters that dont make audience shake and scratch their heads. Well written stories and characters dont need the tons of explanation in twitter or interview, they click with our subconscious and fit in our moral views on good and bad guys. Vader, Palpatine and Luke were written the way that doesnt make us scratching our head, we intuitively got who is who and why the person is bad or good.

    Thats not Kylo's case. They never show or even tell us why he is the way he is. For some absolutely weird reasons they used vague and abstract phrases like
    "There is too much Vader in him" instead of more appropriate "Kylo always thought he is the Chosen One" or "Kylo did this because *certain reasons".
    The used the phrase "The Light still pulls me back" instead of more understandable "I still love you, father, but *certain reason* force me to act the way i do".
    These direct phrases would make him much more understandable and even conflicted, in the way Anakin was in PT. Right now he is just straight up murderer with confusion vague reasoning behind. Or even lack of it.

    And again - Zuko didn't kill the old man and innocent people right and left sot his redemption arc and awards felt passable. Kylo's Happy Ending isn't an option. It would be an extremely bad story writing. You can't break the tropes in that way. It simply would infuriate the audience who always has the sense of intuitive logic when it comes to stories. They will feel there is something wrong in this ending.
     
  7. Strategize

    Strategize Jedi Master star 3

    Registered:
    Dec 18, 2017
    Why don't we just smash the audience over the head with a hammer while we're at it. Way too on the nose for Kylo to say something like that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2018
  8. Mother_Talzin

    Mother_Talzin Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Aug 23, 2014
    I like the Kylo character, and feel he is one of the better SW villains because his conflict comes from ambition rather than the threat of loss. Anakin was afraid to lose Padme, but what does Kylo have to lose? Snoke wasn't holding a significant other hostage or manipulating him in that way. I feel Ben was tempted by Snoke because he was always leaning in that direction and it wasnt something Luke would accept or explore with him. The rigid views of the Jedi helped push Ben away, and Luke standing over him in contemplation surely didn't help. It might be simple, but barring any official explanation, Ben could have looked at the Jedi and Luke as the potential threat after that night, destroying it all in an act of self preservation. Ben is hyper sensitive and emotional, and Snoke's cold acceptance and sanctuary was enough for him to retreat. He outgrew Snoke, and will likely outgrow the FO. I believe his fragile mind wants desperately to be wanted by an equal, hence making the offer to Rey. He longs for something he will never have, because what individual would give themselves to a monster? He wants someone to accept his views and beliefs, and not be restricted by the dark or light, which isn't something his family offered. I don't doubt that he is complex, but he is surely mentally ill at the same time - when thoughts manifest into evil actions, the illness has overpowered him. I think the audience might be sypathetic to his desperation, but not the character and his choices.
     
  9. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    General audiences seem to like Kylo Ren as a villain a lot. New poll results from Empire magazine listed today have him 7th all time for reader responses as a villain.

    https://www.google.ca/amp/s/screenrant.com/kylo-ren-greatest-movie-villains/amp/

     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2018
  10. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    You mean the first order? in the case of Snokes death I almost think that might be his plan. He wants to pull a Palpatine and do a less complicated version of operation cinder.
     
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  11. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Plus Vader had no unpredictable psycho-emo freakouts. When you saw Vader you thought: This guy knows what he is doing.
    When you see Kylo you think: ok, what crazy stuff is he doing next .
     
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  12. Darth Smurf

    Darth Smurf Small, but Lethal star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 22, 2015
    Yes, he is great. I really love him, but I will never put him on the same level as Vader, as his character is totally different. Maybe thats the reason the relationship stuff does not work (for me).
     
  13. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Plus Vader actually owned being a villain and did not give a **** whether other people were OK with his villainy or not. Ventress was the same.

    Kylo seems to want to be able to get away with being a villain and have the approval of the heroes anyway, and wants his villainy to be someone else’s fault.

    That’s not the way the Force morality works, dude.
     
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  14. CEB

    CEB Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Dec 3, 2014
    I think that’s what makes him a good villain, though. It’s a cliche now but that instability of seeking approval, wilfully ****ing it up, and then lashing out because he didn’t get what he wants - that’s the sort of villain that makes sense, especially in an updated Star Wars - a character like that cuts through plot armour, literally.
    Avoid spoilers before the next film, and who knows who he’d kill in anger or ambition? Or what mercy he could show in a moment of seeking approval?
     
  15. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I think it's mostly ambition based. I think he believed that Vader's bloodline was being wasted by the efforts of Luke Skywalker and his pacifism and Jedi temple schooling and his mother and her politics and came to admire and idolize not only what Vader was but what he could have been.

    He wants a Skywalker to rule the galaxy the way Vader could have and he wants to be the one to do it. I'm sure that in his own mind he's somehow convinced himself he's killed as many people as some of the biggest killers on the Resistance. The other students who didn't join him may have simply been defending Luke's honor and attacked him and he and his pals (The eventual Knights of Ren) fought, bested, and killed them. From there he's been a Krennic with Force Powers. Biding his time. Doing as he's asked. Trying to rise up. Waiting for his opportunity. He found it. He's done what Anakin didn't and is now in charge of his own Empire.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  16. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    This isn't really all that different than the OT.

    OT:
    The Emperor - the great chilling evil
    Vader - the tragic villain
    Tarkin - the evil Grand Moff

    ST:
    Snoke - he's more evil than the Emperor IMO, just more of an idiot than the Emperor
    Kylo - the tragic villain - he's just more openly conflicted like Anakin, and more of an idiot than Vader
    Hux - the evil General - he's just more zealous than Tarkin, and more of an idiot than Tarkin

    Really, the ST villains suffer from "the dumbs." I think that if one boils it down, it's not that they are not evil, it's that they are amazingly stupid.

    This BTW is the SW Rebels model, IMO. In that show the villains are jokes. They are easy to outwit and overpower. They are there to show that being a villain isn't intriguing, it's just stupid.

    I actually really disagree with this approach because Star Wars is overall a franchise that promotes violence. And it's important to remember that everyone thinks they are right in a conflict. So, it's like, if you are right, kill the other side. They're stupid anyway so who cares.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  17. A Chorus of Disapproval

    A Chorus of Disapproval Head Admin & TV Screaming Service star 10 Staff Member Administrator

    Registered:
    Aug 19, 2003
    I am actually in utter adoration of the main "Generals" being portrayed in a more silly light than the others in their own coteries. It is such an important position within ranks but that position will not always be filled by people of the highest quality or emotional capacity. Hux is fantastic as a fanatic who probably ascended in rank based on privilege and name as much as qualification. Evil Generals being less than stoic or even cunning in the GFFA is great, considering they don't exist in a vacuum. There are plenty of other truly sinister and brilliant villains on their team to leave room for the occasional abnormal personality to also be on the team. Which is why I actually unashamedly love General Greivous. He may as well have had a mustache to twirl as he tied Padme to railroad tracks. He was surrounded by the Sidiouses and Vaders of the world... so having a member of the ranks go all Perils of Pauline or Schultz from Hogan's Heroes is a good balance. Hux makes sense in an organization so pitiably self-serious as Kylo Ren's First Order.
     
  18. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I shared this is another thread but the biggest difference between Snoke and Palpatine is political acumen. Palpatine learned human behavior and human nature and the value in getting people to want to please you because they respect you. Palpatine, even as early as ROTS, seeks to maintain much of the initial Palpatine and Anakin relationship he had prior to helping him become Vader. He speaks softly to him. He walks alongside him. He pretends to or legitimately listens to his opinions the way a politician does after knocking at your door. He doesn't browbeat him or embarrass him as often. He's more carrot and a little less whip until he thinks it's really time to whip.

    Snoke, by contrast, is more of a Ramsay Bolton type. He thinks the best way to get people to want to please him is by making them fear his wrath. He seems to really have fun with the evil part of the job. He stops just short of clapping he's having so much fun. His attempt to coach Ben Solo is to embarrass him constantly. He catches himself at times with his "How is your wound?" line but he's more whip than carrot and only brings out the carrot when he is also using that to stoke competition between Kylo Ren and Hux in a brotherly way.

    Those are the biggest psychological differences I see in leadership between the two of them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  19. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    Oh gosh, Grievous is unbearable. So cringe-worthy. He's one of my least favorite characters in Star Wars. Though he IS like Jar Jar's shadow. That's the only amusing thing.

    Anyway I like the way in which Kylo is stupid because I really think it shows well the emotional immaturity of people like this. I think a lot of the world's dictators ARE angry toddlers basically.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  20. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    I just don’t have any patience with the spoiled immature people who think they should be allowed to do whatever the hell they want and not meet with any criticism for it, in fact think they are entitled to adoration regardless of what they do because they are THEM and it is their RIGHT. I see far too much of this in real life and it sucks to not be able to escape it on screen either.

    I look for a villain that I’d want to have a beer with if they weren’t so busy killing people and blowing up planets. Kylo Ren could help old people cross the street and I still wouldn’t like him if he kept the same entitled drama-queen personality. He reminds me of Molière’s Tartuffe.

    Hux is cartoonishly slappable but at least he’s comic relief.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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  21. Ender_and_Bean

    Ender_and_Bean Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    May 19, 2002
    I think Kylo Ren's elitist, entitled take on nobility and bloodline actually plays right into the Rey storyline perfectly. It's part of the fairy tale there. It adds to the antagonism and protagonsism dynamic in a classical sense.

    A part of me wishes he would have went further with the offer for her to join him and said something like, "Nobody can offer you what I can. A week ago you were scavenging for scraps of food. Tonight, we could be feasting on anything your heart desires. You still want to sleep in an abandoned walker? Fine. We have hundreds of brand new ones for you in the hanger. But you should see the chambers we've inherited! You want to free the people of Jakku? I'll help you. I'm not a bad man, Rey. Can't you see that? Can't you see I did this so that we -- you and I -- can build a better world?

    I really think if he'd gone even further with the offer and played up the class difference between poverty and ruling and really rolled out the red carpet for her it would have been a better Dark Side moment for her and the audience and also made her rejection of the offer that much more powerful. Obviously, it plays right into the old fairy tale tropes about class and female and male dynamics but that would be precisely the point because she rejects it.

    On a meta level the dynamic also seems to work and represent a divide within fandom in Star Wars. There are some who want Kylo Ren to be redeemed largely because of bloodline and because they want to follow the Skywalkers. They admire their nobility and family tree as Star Wars royals. Some of these same people dislike Rey and think she's ruined Star Wars by being as powerful as she is without a family name at all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
  22. oncafar

    oncafar Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Jan 10, 2017
    IMO, Hux and Kylo are BOTH comic relief in TLJ. Hux is more comic relief in the beginning of the film and Kylo more comic relief at the end. Hux is now kind of a punching bag and we're supposed to find it *funny* AFAICT.
     
  23. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    Well, at least he is not in denial. He does admit that he is a monster.
     
  24. anakinfansince1983

    anakinfansince1983 Skywalker Saga/LFL/YJCC Manager star 10 Staff Member Manager

    Registered:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Once he gets past trying to add “...but deep inside I’m really lovable” at the end and expecting people to buy that, we’ll be batting a thousand.
     
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  25. Qui-Riv-Brid

    Qui-Riv-Brid Force Ghost star 5

    Registered:
    Apr 18, 2013
    I love Grievous so much. If he was in the new movies he'd be THE villain. So EVIL. So committed to destruction and enjoying it all to hell.

    I like to think that Lucas based him on the cowardly heels of wrestling when he was growing up in the 50's.

    Grievous is deadly but humorous but not in the way that Hux (who actually was a fairly good fanatic in TFA) was completely undermined and effectively made into a joke.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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