PT Villains LURE people by showing how POWERFUL they are, not how WEAK

And Palpatine said that he used the Force to manipulate the Midichlorians into creating life and stopping death. That's what lures Anakin in. The idea that the Force can do this is enough for him. Palpatine is framing this as a legend. Meaning that he doesn't know every detail since he wasn't there. So it would be pointless to ask him about it.

 

Or in the words of Palpatine from Darth Plagueis...

"Oh, yes, by all means gather your midichlorians, Plagueis. Try to keep yourself alive while I choke the life out of you."

"There's the rub, you see. All the ones you experimented on, killed, and brought back to life... They were little more than toys. Now, though, you get to experience it from their side, and look what you discover: in a body that is being denied air, in which even the Force is failing, your own midichlorians can't accomplish what you're asking of them."

 

There is a term called a "feint" in dueling. In my humble opinion, Palpatine was using this feint with Mace Windu and waiting for Anakin to arrive. Villans draw us not just because of power, but through them we can vent our frustration, anger, and bitter feelings with impunity.

 

Well, yes, that is true. But none the less, Anakin knows he has no father and was created by the Midichlorians. That is proof enough.

Because no one can be irrational and gullible in this world. That was the point of Anakin's fall. He says that he cannot act rationally and he is trusting of a man who was his only friend who didn't ask him to do anything that he didn't think was right.

 

He has no reason to distrust Palpatine. He's the only one who has ever told him the truth and been honest with him.

 

Well....except for beheading Dooku, and then saying it was okay, just like when Anakin killed the sand people, when Anakin knew that was wrong, too.

And then immediately after intervening to save Palpatine, Palpatine kills Mace and tasks Anakin with wiping out the Jedi Order.

Are you ******* kidding me?

You mean the guy that's been the Sith Lord they've been looking for, the one behind the Clone Wars, the death of Qui-Gon Jinn, the assassination attempts on Padme, etc etc etc. He has no reason to distrust this guy?

And Obi-Wan never told him the truth? Obi-Wan was never honest? What about Mace, Yoda and the rest of the Jedi? All lies? Or just truth he didn't want to hear? And what about Padme? He has no reason to trust her when she promises she won't die in childbirth?

Ugh.

 

As expected, this turned into another debate about Anakin's turn.

Essentially, what the OP misses, is this: Up until he finally killed Windu, what Palpatine really wanted was making Anakin feel he does the "right" thing when he was actually doing the "wrong" thing. Anakin killed Dooku and felt it was wrong, yet Palpatine comforted him and said it was right or understandable. Same with the Tuskens.

In said moment, Palpatine again wanted Anakin to feel good. He wanted him to think that he does the right thing by saving him and he could count on that because he planted the idea of cheating death in Anakin's head shortly before. That's why Anakin stops Windu from killing Palpatine (Anakin doesn't kill anyone here).

That's the whole trick about Anakin's fall.
Palpatine carefully nebulized Anakin's moral system, muddling what's "right" and "wrong" in Anakin's head, until he had him at the point of no return. When Windu was dead, Anakin had the choice between his own death and becoming a monster. He chose to became a monster.

People are free to call him "stupid" or whatever they want to and they're not necessarily wrong. Anakin was stupid in a way that he allowed Palpatine to twist his mind.
But that's reality. People are (sometimes) stupid. They do (sometimes) stupid things, both in real life and in movies. Villains act stupid in almost every movie and the aucience forgives them to be stupid, they actually expect them to do so.

It certainly creates a different emotional reaction when a character labeled as "good guys" act stupidly, but it's not less "realistic" or "good" or "bad ... ".

 

I really like this bit.

 

About the only thing I would disagree with your post is the part I highlighted in bold. I don't think Palpatine was trying to change Anakin's view of right and wrong, so much that he was trying to teach Anakin that it's ok to do what feels right to himself. To follow his emotions. Allowing your emotions to control you is a central theme of the Sith throughout the movies (especially in the OT where Vader tries to turn Luke). That then plays into the muddling of what's right and wrong. Otherwise awesome post!

 

That's like someone talks about how Christ turned wine into water and then asking how he did it. You cannot ask someone how it was done, if they were not there to witness it. Anakin does not ask Palpatine how it was done, because during the opera scene, Anakin doesn't know that Palpatine is a Sith Lord. So there's no point in asking. And when Anakin learns that Palpatine is a Sith, he is told that they can figure it out together.

Except that as Palpatine pointed out, it was natural and Anakin didn't put up a good enough argument against it. Anakin did it because he wanted to and Palpatine telling him to do it was essentially granting him permission. And Anakin certainly doesn't feel any guilt over it afterwards, like he did with the Tuskens.

And he never shows an objection.

The one who has been a mentor to him for thirteen years. Who has looked out for his best interests. Who wanted him to be a Jedi Master and on the Council. Who didn't rat him out about his marriage, nor about killing the Tusken Raiders. Who never once criticized his actions and encouraged him to be greater than the other Jedi. And it was Nute Gunray who was wanting Padme dead, not him. If he really wanted her dead, he would not tell Anakin about Plaguies. Nor would he offer to train him in the ways of the Sith, in order to save her.

They wouldn't teach him all there is to know about the Force. Obi-wan had held him back. The Council didn't exactly trust him. They asked him to betray a friend and a confident. They asked him to break the Code by spying on the Chancellor and justifying it by saying they were at war, which three years earlier, they would never cross such a line. The Code says to not kill a helpless man and then Mace shows what a hypocrite he is, by trying to kill Palpatine.

She was naive in his view. But his lack of trust was in her wanting to use him to talk Palpatine into stopping the war, when they are so close to forcing a surrender. For lying to him about bringing Obi-Wan to Mustafar to kill him. For sounding like a Separatist.

 

How does anyone know any legends and myths that exist? He's a history buff. He has the artwork in the antechamber depicting the Jedi fighting the Sith. He has Sith artifacts in his private office. The novelization has Palpatine even admit that he is a history buff.

Which doesn't change that we cannot confirm nor deny it didn't happen. We can only go by reported accounts which, granted are questionable. But in Anakin's case, hearing that a Sith Lord could manipulate Midichlorians to create life and then recalling that is what Qui-gon and Shmi said about him, gives him reason to trust the story.

It's less sunshine and more that he's coming around to his way of thinking, which is do what feels right and not what you're told.

Think about it like this, the Sith do whatever they want because they feel it is right. If your goal is to convince someone else that this is right, then the best way to go about it is to foster that notion.

From Anakin's point of view, he sees Palpatine's encouragement because he sees him being the greatest of the Jedi. That he is better than the other Jedi. That his actions were right because good was a point of view which the Jedi have a narrow and dogmatic view of what is and isn't right.

And as Palpatine pointed out, that was based on a lack of trust. On dogma. He's offering him a larger view because he believes that he is ready.

Anakin did try to regain their trust by doing what they wanted of him. Only for him to realize that in doing so, he has jeopardized everything. In telling Mace about him, he's condemned Padme to death. When he arrives, that is the very thing that he sees.

 

His "actions were right" because "good is a point of view" ... shakes head and wanders off.

 

Indeed:

 

Yep, this is called a reversal of expectation. If every story did everything the same way, then what would be the point.

 

In a sense, good and evil is defined as what someone wants to label it. What is right in one view is considered wrong in another. But sometimes, that which is deemed wrong may be more right than wrong. The US condemns the use of torture as a means of interrogation, but then conducts water boarding which is torture to gain information. It's not only hypocrisy, but an example of using a wrong in the service of right. History is filled with such contradictions which is why Lucas wrote that scene in ROTS. It was not only a means of making Anakin doubt the Jedi, but a commentary on morality.

 

We see that he is wrong in that he blows up planets to get his way and that there is a price to be paid for giving up freedoms for security. But then the Alliance comes along and screws up his peace initiative. They are, after all, traitors to the government. The Jedi and Sith both want peace, they just have different ideas on how to achieve it. No different from the real world. Palpatine's actions in the PT is a commentary on how society is. We want peace and freedom, but we want security at the same time. The question is how far is too far? What is right for one government is wrong for another.

 

I think he knew it was wrong and felt wrong about it. I think maybe he did feel a little guilt. "He was an unarmed prisoner, it's not the Jedi way". He shook his head and seemed sincere.

This is important, because as you mention, he sees Mace doing the same thing, the same wrong, and objects. If he thought it was natural and right, that objection doesn't make sense in that capacity.

"What have I done?"

He goes along because he thinks it's too late to turn back.

He then cries about it later.

Sure, he's all these things. But suddenly he's also the Sith Lord they've been looking for.

This has to shake everything Anakin thought he knew about this man, no? Or at least, it should?

Hypothetically, if your friend/mentor turns out to be something crazy, like CIA/terrorist/Commie/Sith Lord...you have to question everything you thought you knew about this person, no? You would go over every little conversation you've ever had, no? Certainly your trust in this person would be shaken, no (apparently his trust in the Jedi was shaken, but not Palpatine)? Certainly you wouldn't make any snap decisions that would forever change your life, no? Certainly you wouldn't risk EVERYTHING on some pipe dream that you don't even know is possible? That you don't even know if the guy is telling the truth about? That you don't even know if the guy is trying to help you, or help his CIA/terrorist/Commie/Sith Lord interests, no? That you don't even know, for sure, is even necessary?

Questions, questions, questions. So many questions. Who is this guy Palpatine, really? Yeah, Nute Gunray wanted Padme dead...but Palpatine was Gunray's boss, no? Surely Palpatine could have put a cork in it (especially since he's so powerful)? Surely he holds some blame (even irrational blame, which Anakin specializes in)? Does he really want to help save Padme? Or is that just what he's telling me? Does he want to train me to save Padme, or so I'll help him? Does it even matter if I get the right answer to these questions? Just the fact that I have to ask these questions, that this doubt exists, is a huge stop sign, no? Did Anakin ask any of these questions? Even one? I didn't see it, I would have liked to see it.

And the Invasion of Naboo, that put Padme in danger and could have killed her....and the Clone Wars that kept him away from Padme, killed tons of Jedi, and all the damage it did....that can just be forgiven and forgotten, right? That's not alarming?

Anakin just showed no concern for all the unknowns involved and that is what's most maddening.

Despite the ridiculous nature of Obi-Wan holding him back, and the hypocrisy in judging Mace for wanting to do the same thing Anakin did to Dooku (which you said was natural and right), this is how Anakin thought.

However...turns out the Jedi were right and Palpatine was exactly what they thought he was and more. They were right to ask him to spy on Palpatine.

I mean, if I'm asked to spy on Obama, which I would find objectionable.....and Obama actually turns out to be a secret Muslim terrorist looking to destroy America or whatever nonsense people have come up with....I wouldn't be mad at the people who asked me to spy on Obama, I'd go "Damn, they were right. Obama REALLY IS A SECRET MUSLIM TERRORIST!!111!"

Okay.

Now, surely you can see how childish and repulsive this is, no? At least, surely you can see how it is repulsive to some people, like myself?

I mean, really. "What feels right is right, do whatever you want because you feel it's right." This is ******* absurd and lamentable reasoning.

Sure does make it easy to utterly hate the character. To have nothing but contempt for him. Not at all tragic, however. Impossible to actually enjoy. Good job, Lucas!

 

And then doesn't tell Obi-wan, nor the Council. Meaning he did think about it and believe that it was right.

He objects because he has a personal motivation which is that he doesn't want Palpatine to die.

And embraces the anger and hatred, showing that it doesn't bother him as much.

And keeps rationalizing his actions as for the good of everyone.

That is the shadow of greed for a Jedi. The Sith think only of themselves and not about others and other concerns. But note that he doesn't entirely care for Palpatine. Just what he can give him and when he's done with him, he'll kill him. He trusts him because he is offering him something that Yoda will not, which is knowledge of the Force.

Ah, but therein lies the rub. Obama could only be trusted by someone, if you believed that he can give you hope where there appears to be none.

OBI-WAN: "You must do what you feel is right."

He says this to Luke about staying behind, because he's afraid to go off and leave his family behind. Every action we do is based on what we feel is right. Anakin felt it was right because it was the only thing that made sense to him. Just as Luke did what he did because he felt it was right.