PT Villains LURE people by showing how POWERFUL they are, not how WEAK

That's....a dubious conclusion. Especially when he calls out Mace for it.

I mean, why would he tell Obi-Wan and the Council about how he did the wrong thing? Maybe he was covering himself. Or maybe he was covering for Palpatine.

Or maybe he knows it was wrong....but liked it, anyway.

There are several possible conclusions.

Truth, this was always the way I saw it.

Good point about killing him later.

It's not quite trust....just making a deal because it offers what he wants.

Why would anyone believe a secret Muslim terrorist pretending to be President of the United States? Because he's offering a miracle? Sure, that miracle would be nice, but it's coming from an untrustworthy source, and it's coming from a guy who wants you to do something horrific, he wants you to sell your soul for the miracle, which might end up being snake oil.

It's a terrible deal.

I...don't agree with this. What we feel is right and what we know or think to be right are often two different things.

Anakin often doesn't even consider what's right, just what he wants. If he wants it, then it's right. He's also conflated feels good with feels right. Eating that extra bowl of ice cream when we know we shouldn't might feel good, but it doesn't feel right. And, of course, Anakin isn't just getting a relatively harmless extra bowl of ice cream.

If every action we do was based on feelings...yikes.

 

I doubt the Sith truly wanted "peace" - they wanted domination masquerading as peace, Sinister. I do appreciate your point about morality, heck, that's why I wiped out most of my post because I knew it would be easy to make your argument and I didn't want to write a thesis. The "right" actions don't always lead to "right" conclusions - we've far too many instances in the real world that one could point to.

HOWEVER, where I differ from your words, is the idea of whatever one wants is right - that morality is entirely personal and subjective.

If I want my neighbor's car, it's only right I take it, right? So what if our justice system says that's stealing - it is the right thing to do, because I want it and that makes it right.

That reduction - that all actions are moral if the actor wants it - is what I find objectionable.

 

That's the point. If he really and truly cared, he would have submitted himself for punishment. He didn't because he knew that it was the right thing to do, but is fighting against thirteen years of Jedi teachings.

That's what what a Faustian deal is.

That's why it comes as a result of spending years building up a trust, twisting their minds and giving them something that they need. Think about this, why do people who grew up one set of ideals and beliefs start seeking out an opposing view, one that has been known to be twisted and corrupted by radicals? And what happens when they do find themselves wanting to accept that view?

They are different things, but at the same time, they are what we tell ourselves in order to carry through. You know it is wrong to commit a horrible crime and it is in part because it feels wrong to you. Just as it is with me. But to someone else, they know it is wrong, but they feel it is right because they go by what they feel is right and disregard what others consider to wrong what they feel is right. It is a scary thought.

Peace through tyranny.

And you should feel that way because you know what is right morally and what is right legally. The fact that such a crime can and has happened on a daily basis shows that someone does what they feel is right and knows is illegal. When that happens, that is when bad things happen.

 

easier, faster, more seductive, more power, more control, making things the way we want them to be and forcing other to go along with it. it's in their best interest to agree. it's for the best because we know better than they do. our viewpoint is the right one and the only one. we'll have all the wealth, all the power and the right to say who lives and who dies. we will bring peace to our new empire.

 

Sometimes, he did. But even when he did, many times he simply made the choice that he wanted. But he wasn't alone. To a lesser level, many of the characters in both trilogies made the same mistake.

 

If a villain is trying to lure a bad person, they'd show their power, if they're trying to lure a good person, they'd pretend to be weak, oh yeah, and morally right, simple as that.

 

As Anakin pledged himself to Sidious, he said I will do anything you ask just let me able to save Padme's life. So basically everything he did after becoming an actual Sith was based all out of selfishness of his own feelings for Padme. Sidious was just warping Anakin's mind since a very young age while he was also being indoctrinated by the Jedi. But his trust in Palpatine over the years gave him the advantage over the Jedi because he wasn't too hung up on the Jedi's ideals. Palpatine was a master manipulator, which must always be taken into account. Anakin was said to be the chosen one, not the brightest one. Or the smartest one.

 

This Sheev was a manipulated and its up to debate if he was defeated and wanted to be.

 

agreed, I watched the other day when Saruman(who coincidentally is also played by Christopher Lee) explains why he joined Sauron

 

This. Just because somebody does what they want when they want doesn't mean that is a morality, or can be argued as a moral position. It is actually amorality, the absence of moral consideration. And...within this 'argument' of amorality as a form of morality lies the true nature of the 'argument'. It is a simplistic idealised form of morality vs a nuanced ethical landscape. It is a theistic argument that defines amorality as a form of morality because that argument relies upon an idealised "true" morality. Within that purview there can be no concept of real world ethical dilemmas, there must be a "true path" and immorality, as two distinct (and simplistic) opposites. Within that conception of morality there can be no room for conditional ethical consideration.

Let me give an example. It is wrong to kill. But....if there is a gunman who is arbitrarily and indiscriminately shooting people, I have a knife and an opportunity to jump him and stop him by killing him, is that killing wrong? From a simplistic "true" morality it is wrong, but given the circumstances (the nuance of an event as it occurs), given an ethical consideration of events as they are here and now I would argue it is not wrong.

 

Palps was going to do whatever he had to do to get Anakin on his side. Yes, most villians will lure people to follow them by demonstrating power, but Palpataine is brilliant; he used all directions to get Anakin as his apprentice.

He did demonstrate his power; by promising Anakin he could teach him how to prevent Padme from dying.

But he also had to show his weakness. If Anakin ran in there and Sidious was owning Mace, Anakin would simply step in to assist Mace and they would probably actually succeed in detaining him together. But no, Anakin walked in to a helpless Palpataine begging for help, and MERCY from a Jedi. Mace, although probably right that he was too dangerous to live, was going against the fundementals of the Jedi code by denying his mercy and empathy. This is what plants the whole "The Jedi are evil" seed in Anakin's mind. You also have to think, by witnessing Palpataine's weakness, Anakin can be more confident that he is in control and after he joins Sidious to save Padme, he can overthrow him whether it be for the good of the galaxy or to gain the power himself. It's just an extra incentive to taking the leap.

 

Palpatine wasn't actually showing any genuine weakness at all - merely feigned weariness/exhaustion. Mace had at best managed to force an impasse - he couldn't physically break the loop he simply managed to last it out longer than Palpatine did (or appeared to) and wasn't exactly left in mint condition afterwards himself. The instant Mace's lightsaber was gone Palpatine promptly fired up again as strongly as before, or moreso - not truly weak at all. Which pretty neatly would have left an impression on Anakin, leaving him wary as to whether Sidious was ever TRULY at a weak point or simply playing it up, again in future situations.

 

Yet you've had ten years to mull it over. How many minutes did Anakin have?

 

I am pretty sure that Palpatine never actually claimed that HE had the power to cheat death, only Plagueis had learned it - but together, he and Anakin could work it out between them. He knows the theory but not figured out the math. If he dies, Plagueis' knowledge goes with him and Anakin will never find anyone else who knows anything about it.

 

"I have the power to save the one you love"

" I beg of you. Use my power and save your wife from....certain death"

Now..it can be argued that he's not really lying but...if claims like this were made in an advert lawsuits would follow...

 

OOK: I believe in true morality but I don't make the assumptions you do regarding human ethical dilemmas. We all have them, and likely face them nearly every day to some extent. Free Agency and True Morality aren't mutually exclusive.

 

Correct. He says throughout that he has the knowledge of the dark side that no Jedi has, or will pass on to him. He has the power of the dark side to offer. He says this outright.

PALPATINE: "Know the power of the dark side. The power to save Padme."

 

The way Anakin sees things, the mere sight of a weak and helpless Palpatine at the mercy of Master Windu (who Anakin is no doubt more powerful than, in his mind) would significantly lower his respect for Palpatine. It wouldn't require thinking, it would be a gut reaction.

Obviously Anakin likes what Palpatine is selling, but Palpatine is using the worst sales tactics.

 

Then likely I am not disagreeing with you

My point is it is an argument used by some who wish to define morality in simplistic terms ( a good path vs evil, an idealised form of right and wrong) to conflate amorality as being a form of morality (as opposed to a rejection of it).

In terms of ethical dilemmas...using the example I gave, I would not pretend that killing the individual would not, itself, be morally troubling but (and this is where the best of a set of bad choices becomes relevant) I would rather seek to compose my conscience regarding that than the alternative...which would be to wonder if, had I done so, would I have saved others. Could I be certain I didn't make the choice to jump him out of cowardice, out of a desire to save my own skin?

Or....to put it another way. The idea that you might choose a less bad option does not mean that you could do so with an entirely clear conscience, but that's the reality of being a moral being - there is no comfort to be found in making real moral choices. I'd say if you are comfortable in your morality you're probably doing something wrong.... (which, lest there be any misunderstanding, isn't directed at you...its a general 'you')

 

@CT-867-5309 Palpatine wasn't actually selling himself in that scene, he was making it all about Padme. Which why personally I am not entirely convinced he threw the fight on purpose, merely realised he'd underestimated Mace but figured out how to play that to his advantage. Right then he really WAS in danger from Mace and knew it but if Anakin wouldn't save him, he would save Padme - to do that he needed Palpatine alive. Besides, if Anakin does underestimate Palpatine so much the better, later down the line when the inevitable betrayal comes along...

 

It depends on what the person seeks. If the individual being manipulated seeks power you show them power, if the individual has a good heart you feign weakness so they feel compelled to protect you, and to be lulled into a false sense of security.

 

Or, in Anakin's case, both - he seeks power, and has a good heart. So, the switch from "I'm too weak" to "Unlimited poweeeer!"

 

...or ten years.
It depends on where your focus lies ("Your focus determines your reality").
I'm pretty sure Anakin's focus was on the fact that Palpatine was the only one who'd offered a way out. The chance that it would work was infinitesimal, but to him, it was the only chance.