ST Visual Continuity from ROTJ and EVII

There is such a thing as pacing though, and rushing through events that are supposed to take a much longer amount of time in a series of shots that make it appear it's real time just means it's bad pacing.

 

In case you didn't notice, in the opening shots of Ep. III the Republic had very Star Destroyer-esque ships in the battle vs the Separatists. You think those Star Destroyer decks just might have been in those? I certainly assumed so.

As for imperial uniforms, again... we never saw the officers in charge flying those ships... again I just assumed they were wearing those uniforms already. At the end they just showed them because they were more relevant. Unless you assumed they were manned 100% by clones, which we were never shown clones doing anything other than fighter pilots/shock and/or ground troops etc. We never saw a clone in a officers uniform being a dreadnaught captain or admiral etc.

 

Disagree completely.

In the real world, people didn't say "No, we will not use Jets because the Nazis used them"... they said "Damn those Nazis built great planes! Lets get some of their leading engineers to design some for us!"

The people embrace better tech for the good of their own protection, they don't just hate on it just because it's early iterations were used against them. Learn from and improve upon quality tech.

Star Destroyer Tech in the New Galactic Republic's hands would be mostly embraced by the populace IMO.

 

In comparison to the Empire, just how big do people think the Rebels/Alliance were? They were probably a fraction. So even if the Empire Governing Body collapsed (whether during ROTJ or shortly after), most of the Galaxy infrastructure is still Imperial. Which itself was a evolution of the Old Republic.

You really think that in a very short amount of time the Galaxy just changes it's colors? Down go the Imperial banners. Up go the nice New Republic ones. Leia walks into Coruscant and the Rebels just take over on Monday morning. By lunch time they hammer out a new constitution.

Nope.

I think what you're left with, in a closed system such as a Galactic state, after such a regime change, is complete stagnation on all fronts. The contractors walk off the Job. (Who's going to pay them better than the Empire) The Stormtroopers hide. The Imperial Officers run like hell. In order for there to even be justice, they'd need a new government. But how they can even vote, with no Senators. The guys they just kicked out, were all corrupted. I'm sure those voting machines were rigged Where do you just get new Politicians. New Leaders. You think the Rebels automatically get to lead now? Maybe, Maybe not. Since the Galaxy is just one state, everything has to be done with in the system. With no outside state, there's no one, no winner to come in and enforce justice. Who's going to replace all those workers? All those contractors? Where does the line exist between people just following orders, or true believers to the Empire? How do you separate all of that?

We really don't have a true reference in our world, because there's always been some outside state. That's why everyone fears a One World Government, because there would be nothing to balance it, outside of itself.

You bring up that there would be controversy over the New Republic using the Imperial ships/designs/etc. But the bigger question you skipped over, or didn't realize is; Why would a JUST new Government, a pure GOOD government, even NEED the weapons and ships that belonged to a military dictatorship, that only had those weapons to keep people in line, in the first place? If this New Republic is just, why the need for that? What are they then fighting? Old Imperials?

I think when EP VII opens, we see a reversal of fate. The Alliance will be dominating. They will have the big toys. Perhaps retrofitted ships. Maybe even confiscated Imperial ships, but for visual symbolism I doubt this would be the case. And on the flips side; the leftover Imperials would be in smaller worn out, rag tag, broken down ships. It's a visual clue for the audience; the Alliance is taking back the Galaxy piece by piece...but isn't quite there just yet. The Remnant is rusting away. At this point the Empire would be long dead. The remnant that exist is merely a shadow. Warlord Governors who still maintain control over their systems. Refusing to give up.

 

^The new government needs them because they are not the sole entitiy of the galaxy. Tatooine was outside of Imperial space, it was in Hutt Controlled space... the Hardware of the Empire allowed them to enforce what they wanted to happen even outside their own borders. The Empire chased the Tantive IV to Tatooine, but they did not have a presence there, thus had to send down search parties of their own to find the Droids.

Remember, the Old republic, and thus the Empire did not control the ENTIRE Galaxy in the first place, they were just the LARGEST faction in the Galaxy.

 

i can see an opening shot with the same star destroyer fly over except it's retro-fitted and has a different color scheme for the new good guys.

although they'd be better off creating a whole new artistic statement instead. they should go somewhat ep 1 with new concepts only leaving ot remnants in the mix too.

 

The Old Republic got by without a standing central army/navy for...what...a thousand generations. The Outter Rim posed no threat to them at all.

They didn't make one until the Clone Wars, and that was to keep systems from leaving the Old Republic. The Empire then took that army, and then ruled by fear. Blowing up planets - not in the Outter Rim - but ones within the Empire. To scare people.

Why would a just society need those evil Empire Super weapons and ships, weapons that were used primarily for fear and complete destruction, IF that new republic - the entity that just replaced the Evil Empire...is just. Unless you're saying that now this so called good government is now going to take action against the outer rim? You're saying it needs Super Star Destroyers to go after...the Hutts? Or Imperial Remnants? Systems that don't fall in line? That...doesn't sound that great to me. Sounds a bit...Imperial. Who's going to fill all these massive ships? Imperials and Stormtroopers are gone.

The whole point of what makes a Republic a republic is representational government. So once again, where does that representation come from? For the past 50 or so years, the ruling government has been for the most part, corrupted. Do the Rebels just take over? Where do they find leaders across a galaxy-wide scale? Do they follow the will of the people or someone else?

Because my point was, that's a lot to ask in a 30 year time frame. I think a lot of fans are so used to the idea of the New Republic because of the EU that they just assume it's already up and going. (Because the EU wanted to deal with other stories, ones about Palpatine Clones and Evil Luke/Leia)

I think it's going to be much slower than people may think. I think we may see a frozen state of progress. You could almost imagine ship yards full of Star Destroyers, just floating in space. Derelict. With scavengers taking bits and pieces and reusing what's needed. Perhaps a fledging Alliance, who's clearly in the dominant role is going around getting rid of one Old Governors at a time. They're spent the last 30 years trying to establish some new form of Government, but it's not quite there yet. It's too chaotic. I almost think the entire Galaxy would be much like the Outer Rim. Lawless. Government-less.

 

The Old republic didn't use a standing army of their own because each of their worlds had their own defense forces or hired the trade federation's droid armies.

It's not like the Old republic had no military within it's ranks at all, they were just more regionally based or privatized.

Now there is a centralized military, it's not just going to vanish.

 

http://makingstarwars.net/2014/05/will-see-stormtroopers-star-wars-episode-vii/

 

I can't see how anyone would think that the end of ROTS was in real time... that Padme died and had her funeral, that Vader was rebuilt/reborn etc. didn't literally happen within 2 minutes in a GFFA. It's a montage. There's nothing about that sequence that's 'bad' (IMHO)... in fact it's very, very good.

 

Lots of cute cuddly characters, perfect tie in.

 

It is like the last 15-20 mins of ROTS is the key to making it an even smoother transition in to start of SW. Seeing the interior and exterior of the Tantive IV, the nearly-there more familiar design of the star destroyers and the TIE fighters, Vader, Tarkin, Tatooine, the Luke music.

I think that it does work well in that respect, because if you watch the films in order then visually SW picks up very closely to where ROTS finished.

But its not obvious its over a long time period because its all bookended by the babies still looking like newborns.

 

I think that after the Nooooo has exited stage left, the rest of the closing montage is very good.

Whenever George's SW is dialogue free it's usually excellent. Padme losing the will to live, Vader's Frankenstein moment and the Noooo are bum notes in what is otherwise a pretty great finale.

 

Right, but we weren't talking about the old individual armies. (Which I'm sure are gone by now) The central military was created to serve a big need and to solve a big problem (ei: systems leaving on a massive scale). This centralized military was inherently evil, or created by an evil man, with evil intents.

Up until that point, the Hutts, the Outer Rim, whatever...never served enough of a threat to the Republic to issue a centralized military - meaning those smaller armies worked just fine for thousands of generations.

So my question was why would a just, noble, good, pure...New Republic need to use a super sized military who's sole existence was to implement fear and death on massive scale. Isn't that overkill for fighting Hutts, the Outter Rim, what have you. How do you fill those ships with soldiers to operate? Do you just give the Officers new Uniforms? Tell the Stormtroopers to be nice.

Not sure if you can tell, but I'm largely playing devils advocate. (Which, originally, was to the post you had quoted up top about controversy) And you seem to be largely agreeing with my points, so it makes it hard. I think the Imperial Military is going to be leftover in some way, it's not going to just - poof - disappear. However, I don't foresee the New Republic - when it gets created - will be using those ships. They might use technological advancements from the Empire, but I don't think they'll be using their ships, etc. (Just like...we didn't start using Nazi tanks and ships after WW2 outright, but did take the science to the next step)

 

We didn't use Nazi tanks, because our society wasn't built on what was left from the Nazi's. The new republic is built upon what was once the empire, so the Empire's assets on those worlds that are now Republic worlds, are Republic assets.

Just as the old republic assets fed into what became the empire.

With there likely being an Imperial remnant, these assets will be put to use, as this is not the same political safe secure climate there was before the galactic civil war.

It's also likely after the collapse of the Empire, that other factions would emerge to try to stake their own claims as well, even further fracturing the Galaxy into more factions.

Also, the US didn't have a centralized military it's entire existence either. The army was disbanded after the revolution, and only state Militia existed until the war of 1812, then a new army and a navy was created and since then the US has maintained a central military.

After such a traumatizing war partially caused by the lack of a central military to begin with (if the trade federation didn't wield such strength due to having the largest private military, the whole thing might have been avoided), the new Government won't let such a thing happen. Just like the US took control of State militias, the new republic will control any regional forces as well.

Just because the old military was used as a heavy hand to control with fear, doesn't mean the new one will be the same. It's purpose is changed, and now serves the security of it's citizens instead of controlling them.

 

I think that the New Republic should be a brand new thing. It shouldn't be an evolution of the previous system, because it wasn't. The Empire formed out of the corrupted Old Republic. It was the same state, just evolving. Palpatine and the other Imperials worked inside the system, changing it into the state they desired. The Alliance was a rebellion to that state. They were operating outside of the government. They were looking to bring it down, not change it. They also weren't conquerors in the way that the victors would take over and claim everything as their own.

A New Republic should be a brand new state, new charter, new constitution, new fleet. It should be a symbol of rebirth and not the continuous evolution of a corrupted-to-evil government. The Imperial fleet needs to represent and be a symbol of the corrupted evil empire now rotting and decayed.

The Empire, which was evil, grew organically from the Old Republic, which in the latter days was completely corrupted and under the rule of the would-be Emperor. However, when the corrupted Old Republic needed a new central army, it created new ships and new soldiers. Palpatine didn't band together all those separate nations state militias into one group. He created something brand new. Something he could control privately. Something that also symbolized the state of the Galaxy, in corrupted Republic and Imperial form.

It may seem realistic for the Alliance to then use the Imperial assets, it might even be easier, but it would be bad PR. It would be bad symbolism. "Oh great...here come more Star Destroyers. Wait. Wait...nope....hold on. They've got New Republic/Alliance Logos slapped on the hull. Nevermind, they're the good guys now"

Do you really think that these symbols of death and destruction that so many people across the Galaxy fear, would just then be used for the New Republic? I don't think so. That seem way too much of "New boss same as the old boss" in my opinion.

I think what we'll see is the Alliance using the ships that they always used. Ships from various militia states, or what have you. Which worked against the Empire, and I'm sure it'll work just fine against anything else that comes up, until which date that society is functional again that they can build a new fleet that represents a New Republic.

My theory is that symbolically we'll see the Alliance with the bigger ships. The old former Imperials will have rag tag broken down ships. The star destroyers, the big toys, are all gone. And in a twist, the former Imperials, Remnants, Warlord - whatever, slowly join the Alliance over the course of the Trilogy and the Galaxy will unite to fight some outside threat. The old Imperial ships and other assets will not be used.

I agree that there isn't a safe and secure climate and there being some form of Non-Imperial Remnant. But I don't agree with the Alliance using those old Imperial assets. I think those Imperial assets are left derelict and scavenged by other parties.

Totally agree. I could totally see other parties rushing in and stealing or scavenging those Imperial assets.

Right. And some might argue that we are now an Empire ourselves.

But the Alliance beat the Empire using militia ships and fleets. They seemed to work just fine against those Imperial slugs. The Empire ones, were overkill, and took an immense organization (like, say, the Empire) to operate and run those assets. During the chaos of the post Empire state it would be entirely unrealistic to keep them functioning properly. And I don't believe they were entirely effective during the Empire days itself; they seemed to be used to demonstrate their power and scope of the Empire. In essence, they were used as symbols.

That may be true. But the symbolism remains. Slapping a new logo, repainting the halls, new uniforms are still going to reek of death and destruction.

 

The Rebel Fleet had one job to do - Fight The Empire. The Imperial Fleet had lots of jobs to do (peacekeeping, patrol, pirate hunting, etc).

Policing the galaxy, at least early on - will be easier with big ships to operate fighters out of.

 

Yep - not suggesting it was a 'long time' period. It only needs to be days/weeks. I think the important thing is that there's nothing that disrupts continuity... given that we see Star Destroyers in both AOTC and ROTS, clonetroopers pretty much resembling stormtroopers (sans colour) etc. I think the only thing worthy of seeing earlier was perhaps the imperial uniform of officers... however that would, to some extent, ruin that bridge shot with the Emperor, Tarkin and Vader.

 

And to extrapolate that point, we are lead to believe that the fleet the Rebels fielded at Endor was more or less every ship they could scrounge together. Even if the galaxy immediately turned themselves into the "new" republic, that's a whole lot of territory that needs to be covered. But who knows, after 30 years it's not impossible to scrap the old ships and build new ones.

 

The defeat at Endor would have likely caused a large decentralization of power & the New Republic wouldn't form over night. The Imperial military was sizable & while some portion may join the Alliance, many would splinter into factions. Ackbar's fleet would have been augmented with surrendered and captured Star Destroyers & would be active for a long time. I'd suspect that many of the ships that survived the Battle of Endor would still be maintained for active duty for 30 years. If you look at the US Navy they still have 3 Nimitz Class Aircraft Carriers, 14 submarines, & 2 frigates that are over 30 years old and are still commissioned.

Little tangent here since we're talking about the political climate of the galaxy:

One thing that the OT told the story of visually & I was hoping would be more touched on in the Prequels is the subject of humans vs nonhumans. The Empire was almost entirely human & male. The Rebellion was almost entirely human until ROTJ, where it's pretty clear that Mon Calamari, Sullust, and Bothui have joined the Alliance. Maybe that divide could be confronted more in the ST.

 

I read once, some interview with Lucas, where he state that originally the Star Wars bad guys were all humans. And the good guys were all aliens. Which was supposed to be a twist on the classic sci-fi dymanic of humans always being good & aliens are always bad.

Could definitely be cool to see more exploration there.

 

Avatar did it and it was a horrible piece of crap.

 

Didn't say people are supposed to think it's real time. Just that it's bad pacing. All of this time covered in this montage is done in a way that I found somewhat laughable it was so fast.

 

I'm on my phone here, so not going to reply to each point...but on the first one...whether you think they "should" or not...the fact is, the seat of government and most members of the new republic are former Imperial worlds, thus no matter how it's sliced, the new republic would be born upon the remains of the empire.

 

Why is it bad pacing? If you look at the combination of images and music, it's got a very purposeful meter. It's actually the antithesis of 'bad pacing' because it's technically very precise.