Visual Storytelling at its greatest: In depth analysis.

Not acceptable. Contribute something to the thread or do not post in it.

 

The "chart" was great, nice to have so many examples of visual parallels gathered in one image.

 

Folks, you knew it was coming and now at last here it is!!! Prequel Fanboy has finally compared AOTC to Citizen Kane!!!

DBrennan3333, I tire of your caustic and condescending insults. Why is it that the only thing that you have contributed to this thread comes in the form of abject negativity and scorn? I was merely making a visual connection between a corresponding shot in the two films. This is, after all, a thread which is entitled "Visual Storytelling at it's greatest: In depth analysis." I never indicated that I thought that AOTC is in the same league as "Citizen Kane", only that there was an homage employed by Lucas. This is not a thread in which one seeks to discuss the artistic worth of a specific film, but to compare visual themes and connections. You need to head in the direction of the "Basher's Sanctuary", which is located in the "Star Wars Community" forum - there are many like-minded individuals there for you to complain with. In fact, I find it quite interesting that you have not posted in there, and instead insist on hijacking threads such as this one in the hope that you might incite anger and engage in an argument. Why is that?

I long to see the day (and don't say it's not coming!) when Prequel Fanboy declares Old George Lucas (no relation to Young George Lucas) his god, drops to his knees, and begins worship. Hey, billions of Buddhists worship a sleepy-eyed fat guy, why not Prequel Fanboy? (Only I don't think Buddhists give as much of their money to their religion as Prequel Fanboy gives to his.)

Those comments are not only insulting, but ignorant. You're smarter than that, DBrennan3333 - we've already established that. Is there anything that is morally objectionable or repugnant in liking the prequels? Apparently, according to someone who states you must "socially blacklist anyone who likes [AOTC]", there is. The capitalized P and F in "Prequel Fanboy" suggest an ironic and snide layer of condescension, employed repeatedly in order to slight those who enjoy the prequels. We already know that you hate the prequels and special editions of the OT films (which is probably an understatement), DBrennan, and at this point, need no reminder. I just want to be able to post in this forum without being indirectly insulted all of the time, and I am sure that others would echo this sentiment. It's okay if you don't like the prequels; that really isn't the issue here - I object specifically to the form and nature of your comments. Since you are obviously an intelligent person, why not contribute something constructive, rather than destructive, to a thread for once? I'm sure that it would go a long way to endearing yourself to others, and allow them to hold you in higher esteem.


I apologize to everyone for carrying on in a long-winded manner, addressing an issue which isn't entirely related to this thread. Even if I happen to be banned for the above statements, I felt that those things needed to be said.

Obi_Frans - I really liked that image grid that you made. It was quite clever.

 

Folks, you knew it was coming and now at last it is here!!! Prequel Fanboy has finally compared AOTC to Citizen Kane!!!

<DBrennan333>

*deep breath*

DBrennan333 makes a completely pointless post, breaches forum flaming rules, stirs the wrath of the moderators, insults other users instead of actually communicating in an intelligent manner and proves, again, that he is infact on this board for one reason and one reason only: to be a TROLL!!!

</DBrennan333>

You're losing your touch man! C'mon we expect better than this from you!

 

dbrennan is a frustrated writer who can not bow to a superior talent - much less acknowledge his lack of grace.
and tyranus- you are correct in your evaluation of db not being stupid but he sure tries hard to earn it.

 

Tyrannus, I greatly appreciate the work you put in. Great job!

P.S. With a 99.85% approval rating of this thread, don't let things get you down. Once again, thanks for the pics.

Obi Frans, my word man! That was inspirational!

Meanwhile, another request. What about Anakin coming down the cliff, and Obi Wan/Qui Gon coming down the ventilator shaft?

 

" and your comparison of Paris to Beirut!!! "

That actually WAS the comparison until Beirut was ravaged.

And I would say that the scene of Windu and Yoda looking down on the Senate after Palpatine is given emergency powers looks closer to that " Citizen Kane " scene. " Citizen Kane ", by the way, is revolutionary for the WAY its filmed and the then groundbreaking techniques used to make it, not the story itself. So in that venacular it is ABSOLUTELY comparable to ANY SW film, because they all push the envelope of the techniques of the art of filmmaking a little further with each outing. Lucas is a major fan of Ford, Kurasawa, and Leone ( who all emulated and ripped off each other ) so its no suprise that SW has scenes in it that are lifted from those filmmmakers movies. And Brennan, in case you havent noticed it already, SW is a mythology of moviemaking, so in that respect you could probably go to any of the classics of the forties and fifties and notice a bunch of similarities, so please stop mouthin off to everyone that likes the PT. Some of us find it as equally as palatable as the OT.

 

You know, DBrennan, in every post of yours I've read, I see nothing but hatred. Pure, vitriolic hatred and loathing. You must be in so much pain, feeling the need to express your anger in this way.

I feel sorry for you. I hope that in time you will transcend this self-destructive cycle of attack and immolation. You seek to defend yourself by such outbursts of offense, and in the end wound nobody but yourself. Stop what you're doing. It's only hurting you.

In the meantime, though, understand that the only way to purge yourself of this sickness is through self-acceptance and affection. Furthermore, you must learn to stretch out and communicate with others, peacefully and attentively. You must learn to love others just as you must learn to love yourself. Then, my friend, the pain will end.

For what it's worth, know that there are people here who want to help you. There are people here who want you to heal. We may have our differences, Brennan, but we're your friends.

I love you, DBrennan.

And by the way, I believe the children are our future, and that we must teach them well, and let them lead the way...

 

And I would say that the scene of Windu and Yoda looking down on the Senate after Palpatine is given emergency powers looks closer to that "Citizen Kane" scene.

Well, not really. The shot in question might have a more superficial plot relevance as it corresponds to that point in "Clones", but not in terms of composition. Look closely at the framing, angle, lines, depth of field, and overall "architecture" of the respective shots, and you will see that they share an aesthetic similarity. They are, interestingly, both special effects composites, and both exhibit a noticable "deep focus" look. To be honest, what gives away the fact that this is a "Kane" reference, is the edit (in "Clones") which preceeds the shot in question; it is a close image of Ewan McGregor as he sits in his ship. Likewise, in "Kane" there is a close-shot of Orson Welles giving a speech, and then the picture cuts immediately to a high-angle wide shot featuring Ray Collins. In a nod to Welles, Lucas cuts from a close-shot to a very similar high-angle wide shot that corresponds to the compositional aesthetic employed in "Kane". Yes, the underlying subtext of the shots is different, but it is purely a visual reference, not a thematic one.

I am going to post some more images. Hopefully we can avoid any further "distractions".

This is yet another obvious visual echo, but I thought that I'd post it anyways. The first time that we see Sidious/Emperor Palpatine in each of the trilogies, he appears in hologram as is evidenced below.

THE PHANTOM MENACE:

[image=http://img223.exs.cx/img223/250/pdvd0052fc.png]

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK:

[image=http://img223.exs.cx/img223/1107/pdvd1918rx.png]

A connection of "Force Jumps" - comparing father to son in the Droid Factory sequence in "Clones" and the Emperor's viewing tower in "Return of the Jedi".

AOTC:

[image=http://img99.exs.cx/img99/1623/pdvd2469ig.png]

[image=http://img22.exs.cx/img22/3282/pdvd2482tu.png]

[image=http://img22.exs.cx/img22/9707/pdvd2444vb.png]

[image=http://img22.exs.cx/img22/1166/pdvd2496zu.png]

ROTJ:

[image=http://img22.exs.cx/img22/386/pdvd0016he.png]

[image=http://img22.exs.cx/img22/66/pdvd1838zp.png]

[image=http://img22.exs.cx/img22/6905/pdvd1846lp.png]

[image=http://img22.exs.cx/img22/4897/pdvd1823wi.png]

This is a more tenuous connection, I suppose, but look not only at the composition, but the color, which seems to be suggestive of the impending darkness that is gathering in the repective narrative arcs. The two images appear late in each of the films as well, which adds to the interest of this connection between ESB and AOTC.

FLIGHT INTO DANGER

AOTC:

[image=http://img223.exs.cx/img223/3585/pdvd1926al.png]

ESB:

[image=http://img223.exs.cx/img223/7470/pdvd1895po.png]

Finally, we have yet another visual comparison between ESB and AOTC (yes, I think that the films were meant to mirror one another in many ways). Once again, considering the time at which these respective scenes occur (purely apart from framing, etc.), it isn't too much of a stretch to suggest that they are connected.

A KISS BEFORE DYING

AOTC:

[image=http://img225.exs.cx/img225/8943/pdvd1938gq.png]

ESB:

[image=http://img223.exs.cx/img223/6908/pdvd1884cd.png]

Shall I post more within the next day or two? I have many more references, including some that are a little more complicated.

 

Please, post more. I'm rather enjoying all of this. I attempted this once during the summer and there are many you've posted that I've missed.

 

Yeah, this stuff is good Tyrannus. Are you an aspiring filmmaker ( or perhaps established ) if you dont mind me asking?

 

that chart was the greatest!

good work my friend

if anyone had the time or inclination a chart that shows the progress of major characters over the course of the saga (eg anakin/vader, luke, jango, boba, senator/emporer palpatine) would also be awesome.

i think it would fit this topic aswell because the progression of the characters highlights how visually detailed these films really are, alot can be learned about the stort from just the transformation obi-wan goes thru for instance.

 

Are you an aspiring filmmaker (or perhaps established) if you don't mind me asking?

I don't mind you asking, Severian28. Well, I'm definitely not an established filmmaker. In fact, I'm not really an aspiring filmmaker either - at least, not at this point. I don't really have any formal training in the field, and the extent (or lack thereof) of my knowledge is a result of self-teaching. I do, however, have a great interest in motion pictures. I hope that answers your question.

Here are some more images from the "Star Wars" saga. Please discuss them at your leisure.

This is a rather obvious connection between Episodes 2 and 4. To my knowledge, it hasn't yet been posted, so I thought that I might as well do it myself. The composition of these shots is somewhat disparate, but the thematic and visual reference is undeniable.

JEDI TRAINING

AOTC:
[image=http://img87.exs.cx/img87/74/pdvd0408kb.png]

ANH:
[image=http://img87.exs.cx/img87/2646/pdvd0233id.png]

Notice the structure to the successive shots in the images of the respective films which follow. This is the first time that we see a Jedi Knight (reveal) in each of the two trilogies; we move from a wide-shot in which the character(s) is/are cloaked, to a close reveal in which the character(s) remove(s) his/their hoods. In "The Phantom Menace" we have a two or three-shot (if you count the protocal droid), whereas in "A New Hope", Obi-Wan is isolated in the frame (for obvious reasons). This results in a visual and narrative echo which becomes more interesting as you realize that the composition is structured in such a way, that in "Menace", Obi-Wan's position on the right side of the frame suggests that he is the apprentice. Qui-Gon's framing and action within the "Phantom Menace" shots are comparable to those of Obi-Wan in "Episode 4". When you look at the shots in "A New Hope", Obi-Wan has replaced Qui-Gon as a Jedi Master - therefore, he is placed on the left side of the frame. So, we have re-established the cyclical structure of these pictures through a subtle, successive visual nod.

JEDI REVEAL

TPM:
[image=http://img229.exs.cx/img229/7962/pdvd0421qh.png]

ANH:
[image=http://img229.exs.cx/img229/1635/pdvd0181gt.png]

TPM:
[image=http://img229.exs.cx/img229/7029/pdvd0365ck.png]

ANH:
[image=http://img229.exs.cx/img229/8518/pdvd0140dh.png]

TPM:
[image=http://img229.exs.cx/img229/7259/pdvd0375od.png]

ANH:
[image=http://img85.exs.cx/img85/9136/pdvd0165ui.png]

TPM:
[image=http://img229.exs.cx/img229/925/pdvd0397gw.png]

ANH:
[image=http://img85.exs.cx/img85/7804/pdvd0176mx.png]

Let's now compare the infamous "this is no cave" sequence from "The Empire Strikes Back" to one of the early underwater sequences in "The Phantom Menace". The specific spatial nature of the respective shots is somewhat different, yet it appears to me to be a deliberate homage.

A CLOSE CALL

TPM:
[image=http://img215.exs.cx/img215/5193/pdvd0126lg.png]

ESB:
[image=http://img215.exs.cx/img215/3112/pdvd0315tn.png]

TPM:
[image=http://img230.exs.cx/img230/9779/pdvd0132tu.png]

ESB:
[image=http://img215.exs.cx/img215/6456/pdvd0342ez.png]

The final comparison here involves a Sith apprentice, and then later his master, being "dropped" in a similar but different fashion - from "The Phantom Menace" and "Return of the Jedi", respectively. Interesting that both Maul and Palpatine have long falls - although Palpatine obviously wasn't sliced in half.

GETTING THE "SHAFT"

TPM:
[image=http://img104.exs.cx/img104/651/pdvd0256zn.png]

ROTJ:
[image=http://img104.exs.cx/img104/7702/pdvd0293no.png]

I shall post more images very soon, including further "blasphemous" classic film quotations.

 

again i have nothing but the upmost admiration for those posts

do u think it is fair to say that the structure of the PT has been designed in such a way that TPM represented a mix of ANH & ROTJ, while AOTC represented ANH & TESB. I think that this is true and that we shall see ROTS represent a mix of TESB & ROTJ.

 

Tyranus, great stuff!

I also that youv'e shown the shaft the Emperor falls in, those bridge like platforms remind me of Kamino outside when Obi Wan falls and able to land on those. Maybe also similar to the Bespin scenes, before Luke falls as well.

It'll be great to see any similarities, hint hint!

 

I was waiting for someone to post "the shaft"! I would have done it myself, but my video card in my computer doesn't really work right so well I can't...

You guys have really brought a great dynamic to this thread. I originally set ou tto get exact visual parallels in the movies, moreso than just similarities...but you guys are doing great! Keep it up!

 

I have a parallell I haven't heard yet; though I don't have the pictures.

It's when R2 pushes 3PO, off the ledge in the Geonosis droid factory in AOTC, and also over the side of the top deck of Jabba's sail barge in ROTJ. They're like the same scene with different dialogue. OK, they're not *exactly* the same, but *very* similar.

This is the gist of the similarities between both scenes: R2 follows 3PO from behind, 3PO is complaining, and then R2 pushes 3PO over the edge, and as he falls, 3PO's last word ("look", in AOTC, and "off", in ROTJ) is and drawn out in complete shock. It's hysterical.

Also, R2 gives a playful whistle as he flies off to save Padme, AND and as he plummets over the side of the barge.

 

More visual parallels to ponder.

The first was suggested by Winston_Sith, a connection between "Return of the Jedi" and "Attack of the Clones" that I frankly hadn't thought of. Since he mentioned it, I thought that it would be interesting to post so that we can view the similarities.

AOTC:
[image=http://img177.exs.cx/img177/4352/pdvd0094lp.png]

ROTJ:
[image=http://img177.exs.cx/img177/6861/pdvd0126ti.png]

The next series of contrasts is a reprise of sorts, further connecting the "shaft" images that we have previously observed in this thread. Credit to openmind for having mentioned the one reference that I happened to overlook. NOTE: The Obi-Wan on Kamino sequence (from AOTC), which I re-visited before making these screen captures, does not fit as well into this particular schematic. There is, however, a nice arcitechtual link between the elevated "city on stilts" and the Bespin air duct area in "The Empire Strikes Back". I'll leave that one for later on.

TPM:
[image=http://img104.exs.cx/img104/651/pdvd0256zn.png]

ESB:
[image=http://img32.exs.cx/img32/8703/pdvd0142mw.png]

ROTJ:
[image=http://img104.exs.cx/img104/7702/pdvd0293no.png]

The final pairing of shots comes from "The Phantom Menace" and "A New Hope". These two images contrast the "introductions" in the respective trilogies between Obi-Wan and Anakin and then Obi-Wan and Luke. There were a few shots from "A New Hope" that I could have choosen, but I selected the most nicely framed image of the bunch (at least, from my perspective). Note that the character position in the shots is reversed, and also the low angle of the respective compositions.

TPM:
[image=http://img177.exs.cx/img177/3854/pdvd0248xe.png]

ANH:
[image=http://img177.exs.cx/img177/3310/pdvd0200cg.png]

The next post I have planned is rather extensive, so expect it to be quite detailed. I need a day or two to get the screen captures properly organized.

 

Based upon all of these "homages," one has to wonder....has George Lucas had an original thought since 1977, or has he just been hacking himself endlessly?

 

Based upon all of these "homages", one has to wonder...has George Lucas had an original thought since 1977, or has he just been hacking himself endlessly?

No, he's just been hacking himself endlessly. How petty.

All filmmakers derive some amount of visual material from other films. The similarities, for instance, between Spielberg's "Saving Private Ryan" and "The Big Red One" are too startling to ignore, but no one questions his "originality". Likewise, Quentin Tarantino has constructed his pictures, particularly "Pulp Fiction", so that they exist as an energetic series of homages to film lore; the manner in which Tarantino executes his material is exciting and brimming with freshness and originality, but much of his source material is derivative of other films. This is in no way a slight, but merely an observation that this notion of "homage" is not exactly a new one. Even Sam Raimi payed homage to himself in "Spider-Man 2"; the sequence in which Dock Ock is in an operating room in the hospital is a nod towards "Evil Dead 2". No one complains about that, though.

With all due respect, DBrennan3333, why do you insist on reiterating the same points over and over when it is clear that the conceit of this thread irritates you? Your first comment here, several pages back, was excellent, but since then..... I would greatly appreciate it if you chose to discuss the references in question rather than constantly bringing up Lucas and his "lack of originality", etc. I would prefer to avoid having a cyclical argument. There are other, more appropriate forums in which to discuss those matters. Thank you.

 

maybe someone would like to post clips of the tantive iv from ANH & from the ROTS trailer as im sure a shot in the trailer is identical to a shot at the start of ANH (as the ship is approaching a panet)

perhaps even someone could post all the opening shots to the star wars films???

 

" Based upon all of these "homages," one has to wonder....has George Lucas had an original thought since 1977, or has he just been hacking himself endlessly? "


Do you think that Tarantino, Anderson(P.T. AND Wes), Aronofsky, Fincher, or any of the new jacks do anything original? How would he have made the PT original if you would care to enlighten me. And if you would enlighten me even futher whats so freakin original about the storyline of the OT? Its much more derived than the PT.

 

Very well stated, severian. If I had Cecil B. DeMille's 1936 film "The Plainsman" on DVD, I would produce some screen captures which would indicate a very interesting connection between the narrative crawl at the beginning of DeMille's picture, and a more recognizable one from "A galaxy far, far away..." that we all know and love. For those who took issue with the "Citizen Kane" reference in "Clones", you will likely be quite appalled by the visual nods I have yet to post.

 

Hey, Lucas has always been totally honest about the story for Star Wars: It's stolen from mythology! King Arthur, Beowulf....loads of 'em.

But ya know what? IT WORKED!!!

He TRIED to do the same thing for the PT (from the Virgin Birth, the "Chosen One," the Forbidden Love leading to death), but this time he's achieved what could be forgivingly described as lukewarm success. (Well, lukewarm from a fiscally objective point of view, not Prequel Fanboy's point of view.)

 

Fiscally objective? 700, 000, 000 + dollars between two films in domestic box office alone is fiscally objective? I would say that theres nothing to read into with that other than they were smashingly successful.


The only original thought storywise that Lucas had, was like you said - in 1977, when he decided to visually display an amalgated story based on various human mythologies and film mythologies. Your opinion on the PT is noted many times over now. Why cant you just deal with the fact that people actually like the PT?