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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

Full Series Voice of the Sith Temple (The Presence)

Discussion in 'Star Wars TV- Completed Shows' started by Mother_Talzin, Mar 31, 2016.

  1. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Nov 1, 2012
    The later part is the problem under canon. In the EU, Sith Lord spirits could be placed and kept inside a holocron; if that's now the case, well....there is a problem. Yoda arc explicitly states only Jedi to live after death.
     
  2. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    It can also just be preprogrammed stuff into the holocron.
     
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  3. Darth Valkyrus

    Darth Valkyrus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 12, 2013
  4. Mother_Talzin

    Mother_Talzin Jedi Master star 4

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    Aug 23, 2014
    Life exists after death in canon for other Force users as well though, in the DD novel, voices of Nightsisters were heard when Ventress was brought back to Dathomir after her death. Not to mention, there must be other Force sensitive beings that exist other than the Jedi, Sith, and Dathomirians that learned this ability that were outside of Yodas direct experience and knowledge - we rely on his words far too much.
     
  5. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Feb 28, 2003
    I'm confused by the place in the timeline that this occurs/if the creation of the Rule of Two/Darth Bane exist earlier in the timeline now.

    Ki-Adi-Mundi: "The Sith have been extinct for a millennium."

    Darth Bane: "The Sith killed each other, victims of their own greed. But from the ashes of the destruction, I was the last survivor. I chose to pass my knowledge onto only one."

    Under the old Legends, it seemed like the Rule of Two arose at roughly the same time the Sith were believed extinct. But now we have this Sith Temple that very much seems built on the premise of the Rule of Two. E.G. it takes two to enter the Temple, only two can ride the elevator, it takes two to remove the holocron, etc.

    This Temple was a superweapon known to the Jedi that they tried to assault but failed. Yoda speaks of ancient times in which the Sith and Jedi waged war, and super weapons fueled by Kyber crystals. This is apparently one such ancient weapon, existing post-Rule of Two (i.e. post Bane). And yet the Jedi are entirely aware of the Sith existence at that time.

    I'm wondering if now it has been retconned that either Bane existed earlier in the timeline, and/or the Rule of Two was not a secret at the time of its formation. If the Temple "Presence" represents the Sith Lord that controlled the battle station, then it's implied that she existed post-Bane, and that the Jedi were fully aware of the Sith surviving.
     
  6. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2014
    What I took from this was that there might have been two versions of the rule of two. 1.) was that there could be thousands of Sith, but that each master must only take one apprenticed then the second version 2.) Bane decides that there should only be two sith in general one to embody the power the other to crave it, Bane's version would still come about at the same time around 1000bby
     
  7. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Sith cannot form spirits, unless they're lying to the public then they need to get their story straight already. The "Sith Warriors" on Moraband were not specters of long dead Sith, but the Force Priestess - same with the Darth Bane.

    I think the only way to interpret the Sith Holocron or rather a version it when its installed in the temple, as a form of Artificial Intelligence. That plus the Jedi Holocrons contain hologram recordings, so the Sith ones could so the same.
     
  8. EntechednReformatted

    EntechednReformatted Jedi Master star 2

    Registered:
    Oct 17, 2009

    I thinking the retcon you mentioned is exactly what happened. It looks like when you piece together all the canon bits of Sith history and combine it with the not-necessarily-canon Ep I novel, the picture they're painting is that the pre-Bane pre-Rule-of-Two Sith were a short-lived order that started with a rogue Jedi. Bane was one of that rogue Jedi's many followers, and was the last survivor of that original group. Bane instituted the Rule of Two, which allowed the Sith to plague the galaxy for the next (few? several?) millenia, until the Banite Sith were mistakenly believed destroyed about 1000 years prior to TPM.

    I believe the old EU dating Bane at 1000 years before TPM was due to an understandable but mistaken reading of the Phantom Menace novel, perhaps combined with a desire to reconcile it with some things that had already been established in the EU. I believe Bane was actually meant to have lived in the time of the original Sith ... he was a contemporary of the order's founder. The Rule of Two he instituted was in place for virtually the entire history of the Sith. That explains a heck of a lot: how the Jedi in TPM knew the Rule; why the Jedi were so absolutely confident that the Sith still obeyed this Rule even though the Sith had been gone for a thousand years; how Yoda was able to recognize Bane's apparition on sight and knew that he was responsible for the Rule. This all makes perfect sense if the Jedi had faced Banite Sith for thousands of years before their supposed extinction. Dating Bane at 1000 years before TPM, on the other hand, makes all of those facts very awkward.

    I'm expecting the name "Darth Revan", along with the costume of Darth Revan, to be canonized next season. I reckon it's his holocron. Doesn't mean all the details of the story of Darth Revan will be canonized. After all, the Darth Revan story we know is Legends. But "there's always a bit of truth in Legends". If I'm right about the new-canon Sith history, Revan will have been one of the many Sith Lords that lived after Bane instituted the Rule of Two. Much of the Revan story from KOTOR could easily be adapted to that framework. Jedi Knight, defies the Council to lead a war against the Mandalorians ... drifts to the dark side, becomes the apprentice of a Banite Sith Lord, overthrows his master, takes Malek as his apprentice, gets betrayed by Malek, has memory problems, rejoins Jedi, etc. You'd have to ditch (or at least drastically revise) all the later stuff with Vitiate and the "True Sith Empire", but frankly, that's where the Revan story went off the rails anyway.
     
  9. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
    Probably the idea of a female Sith Lord, came from a discarded concept of Snoke being a female.
     
  10. TetsuAero

    TetsuAero Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Jan 24, 2008
    Most likely not, you mean.

    I'm still confused what you are basing that last sentence of....
     
  11. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Jun 10, 2014
    No, I meant that I think they used the concept of a powerful Female Sith or Dark Sider idea that came out've some of the early ideas for Snoke. Thats not to say we have not seen powerful female Sith or dark Jedi, or that the idea is entirely original. But there is no evidence of Traya - or even if they recycle her name, the back ground is altered.

    Darth Bane created the rule of two in secret and because of it they've been thought extinct for around 1,000 years, meanwhile the temple is designed for it and apparently predates it along with Darth Bane as its mentioned the Sith temple or Battle station is thousands of years old. Jedi waging war on Malachor seems also to predate the Sith shrine buried under the Jedi temple, so this is something the Jedi are guilty of without even a Sith or the Dark Side goading them from a foreign source like the Jedi of the Galactic Republic - seems essentially history repeating itself.

    Another thing, if the temple was used thousands of years ago, then who put the holocron back and why was the temple undamaged? The suggestion was made nobody won which suggests the Sith just activated the weapon and wiped out themselves and the Jedi alike as this weapon becomes dormant and apparently no other Sith pair could ever open during the time of Bane's Rule of Two which is 1,000 years and Bane himself could not with his apprentice apparently. But the temple itself is completely fine, someone had created the Artificial Intelligence (sith cannot retain their spirit we're told over and over again so its not a spirit) anticipating that a new Sith duo would one day arrive.
     
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  12. TaradosGon

    TaradosGon Manager Emeritus star 5 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

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    Feb 28, 2003

    I worded that awkwardly. I mean that in the old Legends, Bane instituted the Rule of Two and went into hiding at that moment, and that the Jedi believed the Sith to be extinct and only found out about the Rule of Two and Darth Bane much later.

    If the Temple was constructed after the Rule of Two was implemented and the Jedi were attacking it, and given that Yoda recognizes Darth Bane instantly and knows why he is significant, then it suggests that Darth Bane did not go into hiding after implementing the Rule of Two, and that the Jedi were fully aware of Bane's survival. That the apparent extinction of the Sith (the Sith going into hiding) must have come later.
     
  13. Darth Valkyrus

    Darth Valkyrus Jedi Grand Master star 4

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    Apr 12, 2013
    It could be Darth Zannah if it comes to that. Bane's apprentice per the EU.
     
  14. DANNASUK

    DANNASUK Force Ghost star 7

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    Nov 1, 2012
    Can't be. Ahsoka comment on the Jedi attack of Malachor seems to pre-date Darth Bane.
     
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  15. Hopeless

    Hopeless Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 28, 2006
    No offence but in ROTS Palpatine mentioned Sith being able to accomplish some very unnatural things indeed so why not assume they could survive death by leaving something of themselves in their own version of a phylactery, horcrux or Sith holocron maybe it's not just a key to the temple but maybe to wherever that particular Sith Lady has stored her remains?

    Just because Yoda said otherwise we already know he doesn't know everything so what makes you think he knows the specifics behind that Sith Temple?

    Obi-Wan transmitted a message received by Kanan's Holocron and they can communicate with Yoda via a Jedi Temple so why not the same for the Sith remember it was the Jedi's arrogance and ignorance that brought them down so why not?!
     
  16. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    Well it can because for all we know the rule of two was instituted in some way thousands of years before the movies. and not 1000 years before like the EU.
     
  17. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

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    Sep 30, 2012
    So if Palpatine says it, it's true, but not if Yoda says it?
     
  18. Hopeless

    Hopeless Jedi Master star 4

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    Oct 28, 2006
    The assumption is that you're assuming Yoda knows everything when the fact remains that the only people who would know what a Sith can do are the Sith.

    Remember Yoda's revelation about that is when he realises why the Jedi lost.

    It also helped that there were plenty of idiot balls being passed around but that's pretty much it!
     
  19. Lt. Hija

    Lt. Hija Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 8, 2015
    [​IMG]

    DanielUK wrote

    The later part is the problem under canon. In the EU, Sith Lord spirits could be placed and kept inside a holocron; if that's now the case, well....there is a problem. Yoda arc explicitly states only Jedi to live after death.

    I'm not sure. Does being imprisoned inside an object equal "to live after death"?

    The "Jedi" temple on Lothal appears to have been an ancient Sith temple before. The hierogplyphs McQuarrie designed for another building on Yavin IV (see above) have nothing to do with the Jedi, yet are hard to overlook in the temple on Lothal (unless it's a Jedi specialty to imprison Sith in crystals or the like for eternity...)
     
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  20. TetsuAero

    TetsuAero Jedi Grand Master star 3

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    Jan 24, 2008
    The Rebels production crew knows what they are doing, fear not young one.

    You're just speculating about the Jedi Temple as well ;)
     
  21. darklordoftech

    darklordoftech Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 30, 2012
    Yoda: Captivated by the physical realm, the Sith are.
    Sidious (disguised as Sifo-Dyas): What else is there?
     
  22. Jedi Knight Fett

    Jedi Knight Fett Chosen One star 10

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    Feb 18, 2014
    I never remember reading about with being trapped in holocrons. I do remember that holocrons have a hologram of the Sith Lord though.
     
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  23. Kashuula Korulanlaa

    Kashuula Korulanlaa Jedi Master star 2

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    Jan 18, 2016
    this is a interesting video
     
  24. Vorax

    Vorax Jedi Grand Master star 5

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    Jun 10, 2014
  25. Darth_Accipiter

    Darth_Accipiter Force Ghost star 5

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    Feb 2, 2015
    anyone want to take bets on this ancient presence being named "Darth Ren"?