Full Series Voice of the Sith Temple (The Presence)

I recently just posted in the other thread that I'm all for Sith spirits, but I don't think the voice is one. The voice seemed more like a Gatekeeper AI.

As far as spirits go, I'm all for them. I don't care what Yoda or Sidious say, because they are beliefs. Someone can believe something so strongly and still be wrong. Just because Sidious believes there is nothing after death doesn't make it a reality, since it's explicitly shown that individuals can survive in the Force after death. All this would indicate is that Sidious had never seen a ghost during the time frame of TCW. And just because Yoda thinks only the Jedi can achieve it doesn't make it so, since it's implied that Father had achieved it too. We don't see him reappear, but he does disappear upon dying, and I believe there was a cut line of dialogue in which the Force Priestesses did mention him and imply that he had taken the trials. He was neither Jedi nor Sith. The Force Priestess herself was not Jedi, yet discovered the ability. And when asked if she's a Whill, Filoni opted to keep it ambiguous, so she may have learned the ability from someone else.

If Father had made the journey to go see her thousands of years ago, then I'd imagine that others have too, not just merely Father, Qui-Gon and Yoda. With Yoda then teaching Obi-Wan. And Anakin somehow learning as he lay dying.

And that's not to say that the Priestess' method is the only way. Talzin seems to have been in some ambiguous state between life and death. Where she slid into a noncorporeal form when Grievous went to strike her down. She begins sacrificing individuals to use their Force energy to restore her to power, when Mace and Jar Jar foil her plans, she fades away again, but then crops up again to help Maul take on Sidious, only to fail and be killed finally.

And between the Sith, Jedi, whatever Snoke is, The Church of the Force, the creature on Aleen, and the Witches of Dathomir, there's obviously other ways of viewing the Force and powers that can be achieved. We don't really know what's possible, or what ancient beings had achieved that had been lost over time, as was the case with Father.

Aftermath indicates that ancient Sith Lords could drain life energy from victims to extend their lifespans by centuries. This seems to be what Talzin was doing to restore herself, by draining the Force out of others. The Sith had risen multiple times ("Long have Sith Empires been built upon the backs of slaves" - Palpatine), had created superweapons, achieved unnaturally long life spans, had conquered the Galaxy.

Palpatine and Vader, build two failed Death Stars, ruled for approximately 23 years, and Palpatine died in his 70s or 80s. And by the time we see the Jedi in canon, they are already beginning to weaken in their ability to use the Force.

There's just this implication, IMO, that the ancient Sith and Jedi were more powerful. That each had their Golden Age in the past, and that the Sith destroyed themselves, and the Jedi had been weakened over the course of a millennium. But that way back when there were characters that could put Palpatine to shame. And we get a little insight into that with Father and his children, who were so powerful that he had to withdraw them from the physical realm.

I personally enjoy how that ancient history seems to be more of a tease than anything. That they haven't done a KOTOR show. That insight into those ancient times is only hinted at and is hinted as being greater than anything we ever see in the time frame explored in canon.

It's implied that Palpatine is even seeking out this lost knowledge and reclaiming Sith Temples and Jedi Temples and artifacts.

Having an ancient Sith spirit I do not feel would contradict anything. That the "modern" Sith don't see an existence after death does not mean that's the way it always was, nor that their belief reflects the reality.

At any rate, I do not believe the Presence to be a Sith spirit, probably just a gatekeeper. But hopefully she does offer more tidbits of the ancient Sith. And personally, if we ever did see a Sith spirit or gatekeeper, I had hoped it would be pre-Rule of Two. Someone/something that doesn't understand the Rule of Two and objects to Palpatine's Empire as pathetic. However, given that the temple that the holocron was retrieved from was built around the premise that only one master and one apprentice could achieve its secrets, I'm guessing the Temple and Holocron are post-Bane.

 

On that note, maybe the Jedi sacrifice chamber on Moraband is one of the places where ancient Sith Lords would drain spirit energy to extend their own lifespans. I can't really see the Sith having something like that just for the sake of ceremony. It'd make more sense if there was some practical purpose.

Perhaps Sidious sought Talzin out because the Nightsisters had retained a lot of the ancient knowledge that the Sith squandered and lost due to their infighting and obsession with the physical world (Yoda: "Captivated by the physical realm, the Sith are." Sidious through Sifo-Dyas: "What else is there?"), while the Nightsisters tempered their own personal ambition to draw power from each other. Sids and Dooku's ritual in Sacrifice did seem to have a lot in common with Talzin's magick, including the chanting.

And this is probably coincidental, but when Yoda approaches the Sifo-Dyas illusion a bit of the Dathomir/Talzin theme plays in the background. Just a neat tidbit.

 

Originally Dooku was supposed to be in in charge of the Fangawl cult, so its possible they would've made him draining the souls/Force for himself or for Sidious or for both. But Force drain still appears to be non-canonical. Blue lightning appears limited to Sidious, who also creates a blue color Sith sorcery effects that is similar to Talzin's green magik effects. We know Sidious admitted that he had never been able to learn his Master's secrets for eternal life, so its not likely Sidious was able to regain vitality the same way Talzin did. So Plagueis either knew of something similar to Talzin's ways, or his way unique onto himself but the ability can be discovered or can it?! We learn it was not that unique since Maul survived, which genuinely impressed and amazed Sidious himself, so its not likely Sidious learned the secrets - its also problematic that Anakin somehow learned of the Jinn/Priestess power while Sidious did not - its Anakin during the Clone Wars was severely tainted by the Dark Side, and Yoda had to be essentially purged of it with his trials. So I have problems with their collective storyline .

 

Its difficult to ascertain whether the Presence is artificial or from the spirit realm at this point. With so much of the EU being deemed legends, the reality of the ancient Sith and Nightsisters / Nightbrothers is a bit ambiguous to say the least. Its possible the ancient Sith were very much like the Dathomiri culture we see during the CW. The Nightsisters could have even evolved from a lost tribe, after the fall of Malachor. If a female Sith built and ruled that temple, there could have been countless female disciples - working similarly to the Nightsisters - a powerful mother / master with an untold number of apprentices to combine power with.

 

Palpatine died because he fell into a reactor, not of old age. In The Making of ROTJ, someone who worked on Sheev's makeup says that he's using the dark side to extend his life and that his appearance is a consequence of that. Also, Palpatine doesn't seem worried about dying of old age in ESB or ROTJ. I think it's likely that Palpatine would have lived as long as his body wasn't destroyed.

 

Palpatine succumbed to an enemy 20-something years into his reign. Other Sith survived hundreds of years during a time when Sith Empires ruled the Galaxy. They survived death via old age and enemy machinations, at least for hundreds of years. Whether Palpatine could live for hundreds of years is unknown and moot. His reign was not particularly long.

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One also has to keep in mind Palpatine was only in his mid 80's during ROTJ, and he looked the way he did because of his own Sith lightning deforming his body after it was backfired onto him by Windu. Sidious would've been more like Dooku in ROTS or something, but probably kept his "Sith Eyes" effect or maybe not who knows - but it was never his plan to look the way he did following the duel in his office. So his deformed look is misleading to a great extent. Walking canes seem to be a joke for the most part as well, Maul used to deceive the ( rather naive) protagonist and it switched to a weapon before he discarded it entirely, Sidious only used one after the Yoda duel for whatever reason, and Yoda always used one but did not need it otherwise as it not hinder his mobility apparently, especially during combat.

Sidious' empire however was supposed to last 10,000 years, why this specific number is unknown, but it mimics Hitler's 1,000 year Reich(Empire).

 

Is the Presence heard in the Season 3 Trailer telling Ezra that his anger gives him strength ?

 

I haven't read the comments of this thread, but this is like 80% chance of being it:

Spoiler

The voice is most likely mother Talzin. Why? Maul wanted to get people up there, he wanted the sith holocron, and he looks at Talzin as his own mother and guide of life. In the season 3 trailer we also see Kanan surrounded by gree smoke and his eyes are green and smoky in another shot, this is Talzin's magic which is seen in the clone wars. The voice also sounds like Talzin..

 

Spoiler

But later in the trailer we see Maul fighting Kanan, who is possesed by the green light/ smoke. Would Talzin force Kanan to fight her own son?

 

I don't think we need spoiler tags for speculation...there was another thread started, speculating about whether Traya could be the presence heard in the temple and the season 3 trailer. Since we see Dathomir in the trailer as well, it could easily be Talzin or Ventress. Nightsister ghosts appear to be emerging from the spirit ichor (green mist) so there could be a Nightsister connection to the ancient Sith. The voice in the trailer could simply be emanating from the holocron though, or even be in Ezra's mind. The Presence is surely one of the bigger mysteries in the series though.

 

I still cannot shake the idea that:

Spoiler

It's the show's take on Kreia/Traya

 

^^

Very likely.

 

I'm still down for a female Revan, but oh well.

 

I think most likely its Darth Traya. To me she is just the most likely candidate. Filoni says he needs to ok it with everyone else so it could be someone else. But Kreia just seems the most likely to me.

 

That would be rather interesting.

 

One thing which we didn’t see enough in the trailer was the Holocron’s influence on Ezra, hopefully we get a lot of ongoing conversations between the two this season.

 

What if Kreia was a Sith, did her thing on Malachor, then abandoned the Sith Order, headed for Dathomir, adopted the name "Talzin", and founded the Nightsisters?

 

Please be Kreia

 

There could also be a storyline about the use of primitive Nightsister chants / spells which could be related to ancient Sith practices. I'd personally like the Sith of Malachor to be very different than Vader & Sidious. Perhaps Maul even knew of a connection between the Nightsisters and the ancient Sith and wants to exploit it...

 

I could definitely see Maul wanting to seek out his mother's holocrons. If my mother made magical artifacts, I'd definitely seek them out. I wonder: What is the origin of the Nightsister/brother tattoos and why do they use chants and green mist?

 

The problem with Talzin being thousands of years old is that childbearing is no longer possible around 45.

Unless her magick preserves her youth or something, but she doesn't look all that young to me...

 

I like the Talzin and Kreia idea, I am 100% against female Revan though. I could deal with female Revan, though I would have to get use to that. My main issue is Revan eventually got redeemed, and I liked Revan much more as a Jedi / neutral force user. If they bring him back I do not want it to be his Sith part, and would prefer he remain male.

 

This would be cool, but I'm not against it being Kreia either. I just want it done right, and to get some of that old Sith lore into there as well.

 

I would be overjoyed if this was Kreia! She's perhaps one of the most well written characters ever, I just hope they retain her philosophies and teachings in their original incarnation.

If Kreia is to exist, then Sara Kestelman must voice her.