Voices of the Past

Discussion in 'Fan Fiction Stories--Classic JC Board (Reply-Only)' started by Mekial, Feb 14, 1999.

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  1. Mekial Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 1
    What do you guys think the skill levels would be for the different classes of Jedi?

    While I've never had a Jedi run in my campaign long enough to even get past a couple dice, I think it would be something like the following.

    Jedi (Apprentice):
    Control: up to 6d+2
    Sense: up to 6d+2
    Alter: up to 6d+2

    Jedi Knight
    Control: min 7d
    Sense: min 7d
    Alter: min 7d
    In addition: some great task must be accomplished, each task tied in with the Jedi in question. It must be one that the Jedi does not at all wish to do.

    Jedi Master
    Control: min 10d
    Sense: min 10d
    Alter: min 10d

    Jedi Training Skill: min 7d
    Description: To learn the way of the Jedi is one thing, but to teach it is another. As a Jedi advances in his training, he starts learning to teach. To determine the natural teaching ability of Jedi, roll a moderate Perception roll. If the roll passes, the Jedi starts off with a training ability equal to his Perception skill. If the roll fails, he starts off with a training skill level of 1d. The training ability advances the same as any non force ability (ie one character point per die of the skill). When the Jedi begins training an apprentice, compare the training skill roll to the Force Skill level the Jedi is advancing to. If the training roll equals or exceeds that of the skill, the apprentice advances normally. If the training roll is lower than the Skill level roll, then the apprentice pays an extra 20% (round up) in character points to advance, and add 20% to the training time. This reflects the fact that the teacher is not properly conveying the tenets of The Force, or its control. For PCs, they obviously have the choice to keep training with this individual, or to find another master, but for PCs training NPCs, it adds to the chance that the pupil falls to the Dark Side (but this should be role played out, not just rolled for) since the training with this teacher is taking too much time and effort.

    In addition: the Jedi Knight must take on at least one apprentice before he can become a Jedi Master. He must also be appointed the title by the Jedi Council.
  2. Jim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 1
    I think the levels you have there are way too high for an apprentice and a Knight. IIRC (and I don't have it in front of me) the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook gives the stats for Ulic, Kay, and the Twi'lek Jedi (can't remember his name). They were all Knights, if I recall, and all of them had modest skill levels, right?

    I think an apprentice would be in the 2-3D range, a Knight from 4-7D and a Master on up. Look at Luke. His skills stay below 7D up to Jedi, and I'd consider him a Knight.

    I'm not so sure a Knight has to achieve some great task to be a knight, but it's an interesting idea. Who knows what it took to be knighted? Was strength in the Force and the wisdom to use it enough?

    Finally, the Jedi teaching skill is interesting, but would be something I would not use. I would think that a Jedi Master would have a pretty good idea of what the Force and the Jedi are about to properly teach them. This doesn't mean the student would learn correctly... I'd rather role-play most of the teaching and training sessions anyhow...
  3. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    I don't have that sourcebook, all I have is the Star Wars Sourcebook, Imperial Sourcebook, Rebel Alliance Sourcebook, and Heir to the Empire Sourcebook. I based my judgements on what I saw there.

    The reason I stipulated the quest, or task, had to do directly with Jedi. "I am a Jedi" Luke says, and Yoda chuckles at him. "Vader. You must confront (defeat? I don't remember the exact quote) Vader." It was something very specific to Luke, that before he became a Jedi, he would have to confront Vader again. And I did at one point read the Return of the Jedi sourcebook, and Luke had something like 10d/9d/8d for the force skills, or something like that. And it was at that point that Yoda told him that no more training did he require. If someone has it, could you tell me his force skills in the Empire Strikes Back Galaxy Guide? I think he was around 6d in all his force skills, and he was nowhere near ready...I don't know the exact skill levels he was at.

    I don't think the requirements are terribly excessive at all, although each level could perhaps be scaled back a die: Jedi Knight at 6d, Master at 9d, but no lower than that I think.

    I disagree with you, Jim, regarding skill in the Force and training. They are entirely different things. I've had teachers who were excellent in their fields, but horrible, impatient, condescending teachers with no conception of what it was like to be learning a new skill. On the other hand, I've had teachers who were skilled in their fields, but not excellent, but had the ability to pass that knowlege on easily, and completely. Obi Wan did say that he thought he could train Anakin as well as Yoda, but he was wrong. Obviously some people are better teachers than others, and I think it can be reflected in the Jedi Teaching Skill. I think it would work to single out the Jedi who make excellent knights and warriors, from the ones who make excellent knights and warriors, but also will be able to pass that knowlege on.

    I came up with it on the fly when I created the thread, and have never actually playtested it, so it might need some ironing out. But I think it's workable.

    I don't dispute that the sessions should be roleplayed, in fact, I would insist on it. But I think the die rolls would add something to it. Consider the frustration of the student studying under a powerful knight, who has no conception on how to pass on his skills. He knows the Jedi code, he follows it, but he's just not a good teacher. A hotheaded student would grow very impatient with that teacher, and would lose respect for him as a teacher, as Anakin did (barring any additional love triangle int the trilogy). I'm not saying that a given number of times that the student has to pay extra time and character points will push him to the dark side, but I think over time the student would look elsewhere, and if he discovers the ease and quickness of the Dark Side after studying under a poor teacher, who gave him little power with more effort than was necessary, it would be all that more seductive. This is a roleplaying opportunity, not something that takes away from it.

    I can see where you're coming from Jim, and I'd love to debate it some more.
  4. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    My personal preference is for the higher skill levels, but I think every GM should decide for themselves what level is required in their campaign. You have to consider how long your campaign will last, how fast your characters will advance, and how powerful you want the characters to be before you decide how many dice a typical apprentice, knight, or master will have, and in what skills. I definitely agree that teaching should be a separate skill.
  5. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    Has anyone run a campaign with Jedi reaching the 7d to 10d Force skills levels, and if so, how did you handle it? Did you make the destinction? Or was it a subjective thing where one day "Okay, you're a Jedi Master now..."
  6. Jim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 1
    Good stuff Geoff, let's keep it rolling. I understand your ideas and reasoning behind the training skill, and after an evening of deliberation, I think with a little tweaking, it could work. I don't really like the CP penalty for training, though. I'm guessing this skill would fall under Knowledge, right?

    I'll remark on the other things a little later in the day, since I don't have my sourcebooks here at work, and want to use those as references.

    As for the high D levels, I've never had a PC get above 5D in any of the Force skills, but the campaign I'm starting soon may have one down the line. When that happens, I can't see how she'll be a "master" till she's trained a couple of neophytes...
  7. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    The reason I put character point penalties in there was so that when a character has a poor teacher, it's actually more work, and more effort and time to learn the same skills. Think of the resentment that could start developing from the student to the teacher. Another thing is, the student may not realize that it's just the teacher's fault that it's taking so much time and effort.

    Imagine in the Skywalker/Kenobi pairing. Anakin, already not the most patient student, is continually having to spend longer learning skills under Kenobi, and spend more character points. So, since this is the only teacher he's known, he concludes that power does not come fast enough with the light side of the Force, and is lured by the Dark Side. He doesn't realize that it's because Kenobi hasn't developed the teaching skills to properly train him, especially as Anakin's Force skills reach the level of Kenobi's training skill level. At the lower levels of power, there was no problem, but now more and more Kenobi's taking longer and longer to pass on the skills.

    That's why I put the character point penalty. To induce the frustration of a student under a poor teacher, and give a way to quantify what a good teacher is in this system, since it's dealing with a philosophy and way of life our characters live, but we don't. I wanted a way to measure the skill level of a teacher, rather than just leave it completely up to roleplaying.
  8. Jim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 1
    (Here I am at work, doing this stuff rather than my "real" work. Ain't life grand?

    What if the training skill were an advanced skill? I don't think I'd make the teacher roll Perception. I think a person could default teaching with their Knowledge attribute. Then, under that, they could acquire the skill of Jedi Teaching.

    I'm a little unclear with your description. The teacher rolls his training skill, what then? How does he succeed? And what if the student isn't much of a learner? I mean, a person could be a moron, and the best teacher in the universe isn't going to be able to help him if he can't learn. How do we account for that?
  9. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    Well Jim. You got me there. Student learning ability was not something I had considered...

    As I indicated in the original post, the comparative rolls are: Teacher's Skill level, vs Student's Force ability, that he will be moving up to.

    For instance: Master Tyrex has a Training ability of 7d+2. Apprentice Killgore has a Control ability of 5d+2, moving up to 6d. Tyrex rolls 7d+2, and scores a 24. Killgore rolls 6d, and scores a 21. Because the teacher's skill roll was higher, the student learns at the normal pace, and at the normal cost. However, had Tyrex rolled an 18 compared to Killgore's 21, it would have taken Tyrex longer to show Killgore what he needed to know to move his control up to 6d, and it would have taken more work.

    I chose perception as the base skill because Perception seems to contain the most interpersonal skills, such as bargain, con etc. The initial roll is just to determine how much natural teaching ability the teacher has. If you'd like, all teachers start off with the perception skill as their level, and it's only a matter of advancement from there, but it's up to you.

    You could even have bonus systems, where the teacher doubling the students roll removes 20% from both training time and CP value. I doubt that I would, but it's a thought.
  10. Jim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 1
    Geoff, here's some reference material for you to consider, pulled out of the SE Trilogy Sourcebook and the Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook.

    Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Control: 12D
    Sense: 12D
    Alter: 8D
    L'saber: 11D

    Luke Skywalker
    As of Yavin:
    Control: 3D
    Sense: 2D
    L'saber: 4D+1

    As of end-ESB:
    Control: 9D
    Sense: 7D
    Alter: 6D
    L'saber: 7D+2

    As of end-ROTJ:
    Control: 10D
    Sense: 8D
    Alter: 7D
    L'saber: 8D+1

    Yoda
    Control: 14D
    Sense: 13D
    Alter: 10D

    Emperor Palpatine
    Control: 13D
    Sense: 15D
    Alter: 14D
    tons of Dark Side points

    Darth Vader
    As of end-ROTJ:
    Control: 11D+1
    Sense: 12D+1
    Alter: 11D
    L'saber: 11D+2

    The Tales of the Jedi Sourcebook gives stats for several Jedi apprentices (all Force skills between 1D and 2D+2), Jedi Knights (Force skills range from 1D+2 to 5D), and Mastersm who range from 5D and up. So, in that timeframe, Jedi Knights didn't have obscenely high skills. Certainly food for thought for those of us running Jedi...
  11. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    Actually, now that I can see the stats, it reinforces my position on the skill levels. Actually, it depends on how EU you want to be. Clearly in the early days of the Jedi, the Knights and Masters were nowhere near the power levels the were during the trilogy. But if Luke was still in training at the end of Empire, and his skills were incomplete, then the requirements for a Knight are high. 9d/7d/6d...those are pretty high skills, and he wasn't ready.

    Thanks for posting them, and how do YOU feel about the skill levels (open question for everyone, actually) after posting those stats? Do you still hold the position that they would be lower than I posted, or do you feel differently?
  12. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    http://www.virtualedition.comwww.virtualedition.com has a dialogue spoiler which reveals something in this thread that we've discussed. Whether or not you want to check it out is entirely up to you, and I won't reference it again. You can email me privately if you'd like to keep it off the board, so that this thread doesn't become a spoiler thread, and locked. mailto:geoff.morton@sympatico.ca">geoff.morton@sympatico.ca
  13. Jim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 1
    Perhaps Yoda was actually training Luke to be the new Jedi Master, as opposed to just a Knight. That might account for Luke's high skill levels and still not being "ready."

    I guess a lot of this is academic anyhow, since the Knighthood is all but extinct (depending, of course, on when you set your campaign.) In my case, the Jedi are pretty much gone, so I guess anyone with some training could call themselves Knights, but wouldn't have anything formal to back that title upon.
  14. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    Too true, altogether too true.

    Makes for interesting debate though...
  15. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    He was also training Luke to defeat the most powerful (or second most powerful) force for evil in the galaxy. That training would have to go far beyond mere Jedi Knight training.

    I still remember Yoda's chuckle when Luke said "Then I am a Jedi" after Yoda told him "No more trainig do you require. Already know that which you need." But when he told Luke that he had to confront Vader before he'd be a Jedi, as opposed to "defeat" Vader, to me that implies that regardless of the outcome, it would be this confrontation that would make him a Jedi.

    I don't know about you, but I'd like to piece together some guidelines for the order. There must be more than a few Jedi left in hiding who would come out of the woodwork after Luke defeated Vader. Although they'd likely not be regarded terribly highly for hiding while other people were dying, they'd prove invaluable for setting up the new Jedi system.

    Which gives me an idea for an interesting character, in a post ROTJ campaign. A former Jedi of mid level power (Failed Jedi template perhaps) comes out of hiding, and is wracked with feelings of guilt and shame for not assisting the Rebellion, and so spends the rest of his days trying to make amends, but with the bulk of the conflict over, there's no way he can truly redeem himself. I think it could be an immensely complex character, a tormented soul.
  16. Erudite Ewok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 1998
    You didn't think to get out of this without my two creds, did ya'? Okay ...

    Skill Levels for Knightdom & Masterdom
    I don't approve of set requirements for these titles, for a variety of reasons.
    - First, as Jim has pointed out, the Jedi from the TotJ were assuredly average and above-average Knights and Masters, and had powers significantly lower than the ones suggested by Geoff.
    - Sencond, the fact that Luke wasn't considered a Jedi until he had 10D-range skills isn't indicative of all Jedi. Remember, Luke advanced twice as quickly as normal Force-sensitives. Perhaps he was that powerful because he kept increasing his powers over the time it took for him to reach all the understandings he needed to be a Jedi.
    - I firmly believe that being a Jedi is largely a state of mind. It is an acceptance and adherance to a philosophy, and an understanding of the Force. My character was considered a Jedi (though not by herself) when she had skills of only 1D. The reason? She had spent a long time learning of the Force, but refusing to develop her powers. Thus, when she embraced training, she already had much of the wisdom that some apprecntices in the 3 - 5 D range would just be gaining. The fact that it took Luke even longer just goes to show how hotheaded he really was.

    Performing A Great Task
    Well, yes and no. There won't always be the opportunity for a rising Jedi to perform great deeds. However, there should always be the opportunity for the Jedi to perform great moral feats, even if the enemy is within herself. So yes, I think that they should have to do something to prove themselves, but it doesn't have to be some flashy, monumental, or even well-known task.

    The Teaching Skill
    I think you may be on to something, Geoff. I would still lean toward basing much of it on role-playing, but I see your points, too. I half-agree with placing the skill under Perception, but you might consider making it a function of an existing skill, Jedi Lore, which is under Knowledge. That would reduce the number of skills an upper-level Jedi would have to increase and maintain.

    High Level Jedi in Campaigns
    We have had several powerful Jedi in our games. Almost all of the very-high level ones have been NPC Masters or villains, but we have played one master PC and one character carrying the spirit of a dead master. (See 'Wars Stories.) We're talking Force skills of around 12D to 14D. I mentioned this in some other thread, too ... I forget which one. Anyway, it's playable. We don't let it happen too often, and we don't play those characters frequently. We don't want to focus on them too much and start an arms race, with ever more powerful villains to face the over powerful PC's.

    Luke as the New Master
    Yeah ... I guess I'd thought of that before, but it never really hit home. It sounds right to me!
  17. Jim Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jul 8, 1998
    star 1
    Great thoughts, as usual, guys. I like the idea of putting Jedi training as part of Jedi Lore. That way, there's only one skill to worry about.
  18. Sarge Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Oct 4, 1998
    star 4
    I hate to throw a monkey wrench into the gears of the self-congratulatory utopian mutual-admiration society you guys have going here , but knowing a lot of Jedi lore doesn't necessarily mean the Jedi master is any good at teaching. I've had professors who knew their material frontwards and backwards and could solve complex academic problems with their eyes closed, but weren't much good at all when it came to explaining things to students.

    As for cutting down on the number of skills required to be a Jedi Master, why should we? A Jedi Master should know a lot of different skills. We're talking about high level characters here and they should have a variety of abilities to show for all the character points they've earned.

    And that's my exalted opinion.
  19. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    Thank you Sarge, for putting plainly what I've been trying to say all along: namely that knowing the stuff doesn't mean you're any good at teaching it. That was the whole point to me coming up with the training skill in the first place. If I'd wanted skill level of the Jedi Teacher to be his teaching level, I'd have simply used his Control skill when training Control, Sense for Sense, and Alter for Alter.

    The training skill was created specifically to separate the Great Jedi Warriors ("wars not make one great" notwithstanding) from the Great Jedi Teachers. Given the fact that "the Jedi are all but extinct", some teachers are better than others.
  20. Erudite Ewok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 1998
    Hey! Y'all better start validating my laziness or there's gonna' be some whuppin' 'round here!

    Naw ... to refine my position, I completely agree that knowing something and knowing how to teach it are discrete skills. And, the more I think about it, and kick it around with my co-GM, the more I think it should be a separate power, and that it should fall under Perception. It just seems like so much effort ... whine whine whine whine whine ... do I sound like Luke yet?

    Okay, you get to be right this time. But don't get cocky!
  21. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    Hrrrrrrrrrrrm, lazy, you are lazy...

    Laziness leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering...
  22. Erudite Ewok Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 11, 1998
    No no no, Laziness leads to Sloth, Sloth leads to Gluttony, Gluttony leads to Des Moines, Des Moines leads to Boredom, and Boredom leads to Destruction On A Cosmic Scale.
  23. Players Nightmare Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Oct 17, 1998
    Actually on there is a really good basic guide for the levels and requirements on "The Jedi Handbook" about what it takes to become a Knight, Master, ect. You have to do some adjustments for your own personal style and campaign but I like them. and actually they incorporate most of what has been said here.
    The Jedi in my campaign are having fits trying to advance in the way of new powers. Right now they are having to deal with an a**hole Holocron gate keeper that sneers and laughs at them more often than not. But when the Jedi really need it he gives them help. But they still have to pay the price of putting up with the jeers and sarcasm. Oh, and there is lots, and lots of sarcasm.
    But on the subject of what to do with them when they start to get powerful. Remember if you are running in the post SW New Hope then the good old Emperor is always wanting a fiew new heads to decorate his trophy room....Bwuhhahahahah.....
  24. Geoff Morton Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1998
    star 2
    Just ressurecting an old thread, seeing if any of the new posters have any opinions on this.
  25. Ping Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Nov 23, 1998
    star 3
    In the campaign I play in, our Jedi has become very powerful, and is now training two of us. My fellow apprentice enjoys referring to her as Master Sunner, but I prefer just Jan-lo. While she is much more powerful than us, she is also very humble and discreet, not given to boasting, and generally becoming embarrassed about hype. Our GM has basically said she's a knight, by having a Jedi master who had isolated himself before the Clone Wars even started mention that she was on the skill level of knights when he still hung around other Jedi. I consider my character an apprentice. She's at around 3D in each skill.

    I'm toying with something in the campaign I'm running. It doesn't matter too much, really, because a Jedi shouldn't be too concerned about rank. However, here's the thought. In medieval times, a person may have started out as a page, then become a squire, then a knight. Perhaps the institution of another rank might make the D question easier. I don't consider my Jedi an apprentice, but she is not yet a knight. She's something along the lines of a journeyman, someone who is fairly skilled in their craft, but not really ready for a full-blown job. When she is ready, she'll become a knight. That'll be partly D, partly what she's going through right now. To become a master requires dedication above and beyond the normal limits. Hmm, that doesn't sound quite right. Teaching would probably be part of that.

    As for performing a great task, as was mentioned, it isn't always possible. However, perhaps resisting a strong pull to the Dark Side might substitute. If you read EU stuff, Zahn's latest (I think) has Luke telling Mara that to become a full Jedi, she must make some sort of sacrifice or perform some task or something like that. (I'll get the book eventually, honest!) I don't remember it exactly, but he says something about needing to serve "the galaxy." Mara was, of course, skeptical. Serving something so abstract seemed ridiculous to her. Or something like that. Read the book.

    That's an interesting idea for a teaching skill. I totally agree with what was said about the difference between knowing something and being able to teach it. I'm a college student, after all, and I have professors who are brilliant minds, but just can't relate well with the students. With that phrasing, you can probably guess I'd put such a skill under perception. I think in Heroes and Rogues there's a template for a professor, and one of his skills is an advance skill: "education." If anyone has that handy, maybe they could tell us where it is located.
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