Voices of the Past

in the campain i'm running at the moment i am about to make 4 of the pc's kinghts if they can get past the next scenario without getting any DSP, there average skill is bettween 3d and 5d.

 

Ping,

I don't like the idea of the page, squire, knight (or apprentice, journeyman, master) approach to Force training ... but it can work. Despite my insistence that the world accept my infallibility, I must admit that just because I dislike something, it doesn't necessarily suck.

The formal progression can and should be workable. It was probably used in certain times and places in the SW galaxy. The deciding factor would be, once again, on the style of the Master. They might find that that sort of formal structure helps to focus their students, especially if the Master herself is goal-oriented. If they had many students, they might even use it as a form of healthy competition.

The reason I don't like it is because it's part of that whole D&D mentality that I loathe. I dislike the idea of character advancement. It's so boring! What I love is character development; i.e. developing the character's personality and ambitions and emotions and relationships.

Here ends the sermon.

 

I see your point, sir. I suggest a new strategy--let the Ewok win.

I would like to focus on character development in my current campaign, more than in advancement. It doesn't really matter what my Jedi can or can't do, but more what she is willing to at least try. The same for the rest of the characters, too. I hope it turns out this way. I really want to keep an on-going, overall story arc, designed to help the characters advance and accomplish their goals, or at least realize that they don't REALLY want those goals. It makes more sense, and since I have a real-life time limit (when I move away next spring), I can focus on some things in such a way as to make a climax and resolution plausible. In that sense, the idea of page/squire/knight/etc doesn't really work, or at least doesn't matter. For those campaigns where such a thing might matter, it might work.

Also, in the trailer, Yoda says, "Always two there are, a master and an apprentice." It seems that, perhaps when there were more Jedi, the younger students traveled with a mentor, who taught them what it was a Jedi should do. (I don't know for sure, and a quest to find out would probably include spoilers, so I won't look.) Something like this could be incorporated into a game, with it undesrtood that the mentor would leave when s/he felt the student ready to go off alone--when s/he became a knight. For a character often seeking affirmation from others, this could be both a good or bad way of going about it.

For my Jedi, I basically had the masters at the new Jedi academy kick her out, because she was powerful enough to stand on her own, and they needed the room for more students. She's not really a knight, but she's not an apprentice, really. That's why I thought maybe a journeyman type position. But, again, if it doesn't work or clutters up the game or is unnecessary, don't use it, so I'm not. And keep on giving sermons, o wise EE.

 

Another thought, and perhaps a different thread would be best, but here it is.
For each skill a character learns, they advance their relevant Force skills a pip. However, I think there might be instances where a character knew how to do various things, but didn't have the number of D to match all the skills. Do you see what I mean? For example, I am wondering about creating a gypsy fortune-teller who has some Force talent that allows her to do some different things, for example, farseeing, both telepathies, and some other skills, mostly along the lines of what a fortune teller would generally be able to do. However, I think it would be better if she only had a few D in each power, so that they wouldn't always work, and she'd have to use other means. But, if she knows the skills I think she would, she should have more D than that. Any thoughts?

 

Well, a gypsey or shaman character wouldn't necessarily need to have the relevant Force powers, or even sufficient D in the attributes. If they're Force sensitive, then perhaps the powers just come to them when needed. (Of course, that doesn't mean they should randomly be able to pick up a lightsaber and hold their own ...)

The idea here is that the Jedi way is but one path of the Force. A gypsey or witch doctor might not even know what it is they're doing when they use the Force. I have a character like this, a young Ewok apprenticed to the tribe shaman who was taken by an Imperial scouting mission. (Ack! Alien abduction!) I did write up three or four powers for him, and he has Sense and Control at 1D, but no knowledge of what the Galaxy knows as the Force. He thinks he is divining signs from the tree goddess, and it only really works when he goes through his religious rites.

Back to the teacher/apprentice idea, don't misunderstand ... I firmly believe that it's a useful and important relationship. What I personally don't like is the regimentation and rigid hierarchy implied. It's a good thing I never joined the army, huh?

 

Me, too!

I'm interested, though, in seeing what the new movies have to say on heirarchy, etc. With there being a Jedi Temple and Council and stuff, it seems that there's some sort of order and regulation. But, because the Force is such a personal thing, there would have to be some freedom of choice, IMHO. You couldnt' just say that once every student completes four years of training and some great quest they become a knight. For some students, logner will be necessary. Others may progress faster. There may be averages and generalities, but there couldn't really be set-in-stone guidelines. So I think I agree with you, EE. Right?

That makes sense about the shaman/gypsy thing. I'm feeling long-winded, and I'm boring myself, so I'm going to go before it gets worse.

 

I've just made one of the weaker force users in my campain a knight because he was the one character, who was ready to become a knight that managed to resist the temptation of the dark side.
My point being that if a character shows he has the strength of will to be a knight he should be made a knight (as long as he can also look after himself/herself in the more physical aspects of the job)

 

An alternative viewpoint:

A knight should never consider themselves a knight first. A master must bestow that, but only after a show of humility before the Force. Mastery of the Force is not in big dice numbers, but how you use the Force and how the Force uses you.
If I had to come up with rules, they would be like this:
1) Player has refused at least five opportunities for quick advancement/great wealth/easy power.

2) Player has demonstrated no need to gratuitously use the Force to acheive goals.

3) Player serves Life in a way that involves some form of sacrifice. This need not be ostentatious or crippling.

Luke Skywalker demonstrated these things admirably in his rise to knighthood. Of course, he broke the rule aboot declaring himself a Knight for obvious reasons.
The key here is the use of the Force does not make a Force user admirable OR powerful. It shows they do not possess the maturity in the Force to solve their problems without their power crutch.

That is not to say to prevent your players from using the Force as much as they want. But watch their actions. Signs of maturity in the Force are subtle. Hana Tiramizu, the Jedi Warrior, is closer to Knighthood than Mott El-Mott, the Barbarian Jedi, because his first reaction is to use a Force Power in EVERY situation. Hana's use of the Force is frequent, but is normally the last thing she comes up with.

As always, YMMV, and I get the sense that the flavor of your campaigns are different than my own

C

[This message has been edited by Cromwell (edited 05-04-99).]

 

I like the idea of how they use the force, not how well. It shows the maturity needed to responsibly and without DSPs wield so great a power.

I don't know if I would require FIVE refusals of the quick and easy path. Perhaps with my campaign having only one Jedi it would require too much focus on her. Besides, where she is right now, the quick and easy path isn't really an option. But perhaps that in itself is a sign of her growing maturity, that she doesn't look for easy ways out. She tries to help others, even when it brings her trouble, which is has a time or two.

Those are pretty good guides, in general, I think. Of course, some characters might require a little adjusting of them. (What is TMMV?) Hey, Cromwell, how do you decided whether or not to give a DSP? For me, it'd have to be something pretty serious. My Jedi has skirted the edges of the Dark Side, but she's not in danger anymore. It sounds like you're a little freer with the DSPs than I am. But it could be your campaign is darker.

 

Ping:

YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary

There is a big difference between one jedi character acting alone and several jedi characters making up a party. As this campaign continues, I have found that it is necessary to use the threat of DSPs to keep the characters from being a little overzealous in their pursuit of the bad guys.
Several characters can have a large number of powers, and when you combine effects like "Concentration" with "Enhanced Coordination" etc. you can do some amazing things. The trick for me is to keep them remembering the morals and ethics they signed on to when they called themselves Jedi.
Otherwise it becomes a powergamer's dream, with that much Force against the bad guys. They do good. They do crazy things to achieve goals simply because they are crazy, and resort to the Force when they are stymied otherwise. Maybe I'm just lucky to have them doing this

As for the color of my campaign, it's actually very bright in outlook. Though the players know their Jedi won't live too terribly much longer (until Anakin decides to get some armor ) we are playing this campaign in part to keep our anticipation up for the new movie. DSPs _are_ used as a threat against the player's desires to use the Force to collapse buildings and such, but mostly they police themselves.

C

 

Yeah, I think if I had a bunch of Jedi running around I'd probbaly have to keep them under control. As it is, my "normal" players can do some wacky things, like jumping onto ships taking off from spaceports. I swear, one of them is going to get themselves killed before this is over, and I'm not sure which one, the one who jumped onto the escaping ship or the one who ran back into the ship and came out with a stun grenade and a light repeating blaster in the docking bay of a super star destroyer with a dark Jedi standing in front of her. Somewhat of a toss-up, eh? You'd think the threat of death would be enough to keep them under wraps, but they all have hero/suicidal complexes.

I haven't really had to threaten my Jedi yet, mostly because she doesn't really know what she can do yet. I'm a bit concerned about when she finds out.

You know, it's a really good thing that Jedi have to be good, or they get DSPs and taken over as GM characters and such, or things could get ugly. Although, at times, it'd be nice if they didn't have to be so concerned about it, especially during combat. But that's probably the point.

 

Just ressurecting an old thread, seeing if any of the new posters have any opinions on this.

 

It's good to see some debate on this, but one question has yet to be answered (at least I haven't seen it anyway):

How is it that Jedi's in the ToJ era, 4 millenia before TPM, are able to train multiple apprentices, while you can train only one in TPM? I'm thinking the one-master-one-apprentice policy may have been instituted to better train potential Jedi, and cut down on those pesky Jedi that turn to the dark side.

I didn't like the whole midichlorian concept at first, but it's kind of grown on me since. I figure that the "Force push" that Luke used in the Jedi Academy trilogy, can be attributed to his interacting with the candidates MC's, even thought the concept was still in GL's head at the time.

Also, wouldn't Luke, assuming Kenobi spoke to him about the one-on-one relationsahips between Master's and Apprentices, not train so many apprentices as he did in the TJA trilogy. I am assuming that the New Republic needed Jedi's NOW, and that was why.

Any idea's?

B.T.W. Did anyone notice that the three-eyed aliens seen in the pod-race and in the Senate, were refered to as from Malestare. EU has them dubbed as "Grans". I know it's minor, but there is yet another inconsistency between the EU and GL mind.

The first of many I am afraid

Oh well

PD

 

I don't look at the loss of EU credibility as earthshattering, not because they suck, but because they're ultimately a fun way to spend some time, imaginary stories of imaginary characters in someone elses imaginary world. If they can keep you engrossed for ten or twelve hours, does it really matter that they "never really happened?"

 

I'd like to add something to the old debate of power levels, how relatively weak Jedi by Star Wars era standards were considered powerful Jedi Knights in their era.

In any field, the early years are of relatively low skill, as compared to the later years, after millions had contributed to it, and the skill levels rose. Hockey scores have gone up over the decades. Records back then that were considered impressive are considered run of the mill today. Look at fields such as Judo, or Karate. In their infancies, the ones who were Masters then would likely not stand a chance against the mid level Judoka or Karate practitioner today, although we don't look back at the pioneers with any less respect.

I think it would be the same with a Jedi of two thousand years before Star Wars. If C/S/A skills of 7d/6d/5d were the top of the field, possessed only by Masters because the envelope hadn't been pushed, then a Knight would be down at 4d/3d/2d, simply because the skills were not as advanced. A master of that day would likely not stand a chance against a knight of TPM era. And Emperor Palpatine, as powerful as he was in Jedi, would likely be considered tame by the Jedi two thousand years after Star Wars.

just a thought...

 

(I guess we're putting spoilers in this forum. Is there a way to indicate this in the thread topic?)

That's a good point, Geoff. I had been having lots of trauma trying to come to figure out how to put TPM and TotJ together, but that was before I realized that TotJ is so chronologically far away from TPM. Yea!

Also, I somewhat doubt that Kenobi told Luke about that. He taught him the very basics of using the Force. Luke wasn't really trained in training, as it were. He had to make it up as he went along, unless you buy the Jedi masters who were in hiding. (I use it in my campaign, but I don't necessarily agree with it.) Also, it seems that several of the new practices presented in TPM were designed more to stop Jedi turning to the Dark Side than anything else. Yoda says Anakin already has too much fear, too many connections. As we maybe able to guess, he connection with his mother will probably have something to do with his downfall, whereas Kenobi and Qui-gon have no such associations, and are thus better able to stay on the right path, as it were. Also, having only one apprentice would ensure that the master was paying proper attention to the student, rather than maybe playing favorites or having his/her attention split.

Another movie thing: "the Trials."
This would back up the idea that maybe there needs to be some sort of test or trial passed before a Jedi becomes a knight. It sounded as if in TPM that it might have been more formalized, but they were flexible, taking Kenobi's fight as his trial and all. (I don't want to say too much, because this isn't marked spoiler yet.)

 

Hope this helps, visit http://swrpg.netswrpg.net and go to the supplements section, there's a "Jedi Handbook" there, good fan made material. It has somewhere in it, suggestions for skill levels for apprentice, knights and masters.

 

I think having the right attitude is absolutely critical to becoming a Jedi Knight. No matter how high a character's skill levels are, he shouldn't be made a knight if his motives are ever suspect in any way.

It is also very important to have the high levels of skill to become a Jedi Knight. The respect (or fear) given to the Jedi can not be undermined by granting knighthood to a character with a perfect Boy Scout personality but not enough skills to enforce his decisions. A weak Jedi Knight would cause all Jedi to lose their aura of invincibility and lead to a loss of respect for all Jedi.

 

Padawan Deconn:

I had just assumed the Grans had colonized some planets. Further, the Grans never had their homeworld menioned by name, IIRC. So two possible reconciliations.

C

 

That's a good point, Sarge. It's sort of happened to the players in my campaign, because the Jedi started out with low powers (as appropriate) and kept rolling ones and getting headaches and such. However, that hasn't really spread past the group, because no one currently openly admits to being a Jedi. A Jedi doesn't need too many dice to be pretty powerful, though. Babbling!

 

I think Sarge has a good point. Let's not forget that the Jedi's primary attribute is Knowledge. As Yoda said "a Jedi uses the Force for Knowledge and Defence. Never for attack" (or something pretty close). That's what I reckon it's all about really. If you use the Force correctly as several people have mentioned, and have the ability to protect yourself, you would be considered a Jedi - whatever 'level' it might be (back to that D&D terminology that I also dislike)...

Here's a RL quote to consider too:

"Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful"

Samuel Johnson

Dachande.

 

sorry if this upsets anyone but my GM has just joined us and asked me what kind of things were here so i'm moving some of the more interesting posts back up the list.

 

Since jsd's GM hasn't posted anything on this thread yet, I'll put in some random babblings, ot maybe encourage him/her.

Okay, in some campaigns, whatever the skill level of the character, some GMs may want to put their Jedi through trials to prove their worthiness for knighthood. So, what are some good tests? If you've seen TPM, you know one. (Still avoiding spoilers, just in case.) What are some other ideas? How would a Jedi Academy/Temple have its students prove their ability to be Jedi Knights? I can't actually come up with a good example. I would, I think, though, have to have several parts, to test various "knightly virtues," as it were. Such things as the ability to control emotions, fighting skills, and diplomacy might be important tests.

 

I wouldn't tell the character or player when the test begins. A Jedi Master wouldn't be interested in how his padawan responds to tests; he would want to see how he handles himself in real life situations.

 

Every time I see the initials GM in this thread, I think someone's talking about me.

Hi everybody.