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  1. In Memory of LAJ_FETT: Please share your remembrances and condolences HERE

JCC Volkswagen's massive consumer fraud

Discussion in 'Community' started by KnightWriter, Sep 21, 2015.

  1. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001
    For those who haven't been following it, Volkswagen was found (and has admitted) to have perpetuated a years-long effort to fool emissions testing here in the United States. It covers close to 500,000 diesel-fueled vehicles.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/international/volkswagen-shares-recall.html?_r=0

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/the-wrath-of-volkswagens-drivers.html?_r=0

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/business/it-took-epa-pressure-to-get-vw-to-admit-fault.html?_r=0

    The comments on two of the above articles are angry, and understandably so. A lot of car owners just saw the value of their vehicles take a major hit, and they aren't getting what they thought they paid for. Legal action looks certain, both from consumers and from governmental agencies.

    There could be up to 37.5K fine for each car, which adds up to about an 18 billion dollar fine if that were to happen. That's on top of the billions of dollars in value the company lost today (although apparently not much of it is owned by shareholders), plus any future legal action that results in monetary losses.

    Does anyone here own a VW, and if so, do you have any thoughts on this? I'm interested in anyone's thoughts, but VW owners in particular.
     
  2. darth_gersh

    darth_gersh Force Ghost star 7

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2005
    I own an Audi, but it runs on unleaded. This is what you get from big corporations, lies, lies, lies.
     
  3. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    Yes, I own a Mk VI Golf GTI. I know the bog-standard, boring Golf models (TSI and TDI) have wildly optimistic emissions figures and fuel consumption figures, because they're recorded on a dyno and thus don't simulate real world conditions. I

    The issue only affects diesel VW and Audi owners, KW. So if you have a TSI Golf, you're fine. If you have a TDI, then affected. Similarly my GTI is fine but a GTD, not so much.

    If you have a Polo, you're a peasant.

    Also, please explain:
    http://www.theguardian.com/business...ndal-sends-shares-in-global-carmakers-reeling

    “We need to ask the question, is this happening in other countries and is this happening at other manufacturers? Some part of our reaction is not even understanding what has happened exactly,” said John German, one of the two co-leads on the US team of the International Council for Clean Transportation (ICCT), the European-based NGO that raised the alarm.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/22/b...=WhatsNext&contentID=WhatsNext&pgtype=article

    “I feel like I was misled,” said Tony German, a health care administrator in Austin, Tex., who owns a 2010 diesel Audi A3, one of the cars affected by the E.P.A. action. “VW has been successful in promoting their high-mileage, clean diesel engines — and now they are telling us they are neither.”

    Ummmmm... o_O
     
  4. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    This is one of those cases where I'm kind of amazed that they thought nobody would ever find out about what they were doing.
     
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  5. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001

    That's part of where my interest is. The fraud has to go almost or all the way to the top of the company. It was complex, long-running, and profitable. You don't undertake that kind of plan, or risk, without a lot of planning and approval.
     
    Juliet316 and EHT like this.
  6. Ender Sai

    Ender Sai Chosen One star 10

    Registered:
    Feb 18, 2001
    That's not necessarily true, KW, though it fits the populist misconception of corporate life.

    For example, if the company's Line 1 and 3 defence mechanisms didn't pick up anything in their ORSAs or internal audits, then they can't really raise the red flag. So the conspiracy can be contained.

    Have we had confirmation this occurs outside North American models?

    If what's being suggested is true, that other car makers are involved, then you have a conspiracy a la LIBOR. What I don't see so far is prima facie evidence of complacency at the top.
     
  7. Debo

    Debo Force Ghost star 6

    Registered:
    Sep 27, 2001
    If I had a red pen, I'd place an exclamation mark in the margin here.
     
    jp-30 and Ender Sai like this.
  8. vin

    vin Chosen One star 6

    Registered:
    Dec 16, 1999
  9. slightly_unhinged

    slightly_unhinged Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Who the **** drives a diesel? Vegetarians and other people who've given up on life... so who cares?
     
  10. LAJ_FETT

    LAJ_FETT Tech Admin (2007-2023) - She Held Us Together star 10 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    May 25, 2002
    I've got a VW Golf but it's so old it probably predates this. (It's a petrol Golf, not a diesel one.). BBC News here is speculating that VW might not be the only manufacturer involved.
     
  11. mrsvos

    mrsvos Jedi Grand Master star 5

    Registered:
    Nov 18, 2005
    I drive big honkin' Ford F250 diesel.
     
  12. slightly_unhinged

    slightly_unhinged Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jan 28, 2014

    Diesel trucks are forgivable. Diesel cars are not.
     
  13. Sauntaero

    Sauntaero Jedi Grand Master star 4

    Registered:
    Jul 9, 2003
    I'm not too surprised about this. The EPA's clean diesel standards are more stringent than other markets' and, IIRC, not written for autos at all. VW & co are the only option for American consumers who want a diesel car.
     
  14. JoinTheSchwarz

    JoinTheSchwarz Former Head Admin star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Now that I know Ender drives a Golf, I'm wondering if he also drinks cheap gin before heading to the weekly baby rave and dancing to David Guetta.
     
    Ender Sai and yankee8255 like this.
  15. Strilo

    Strilo Manager Emeritus star 8 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Aug 6, 2001
    I drive a 2014 VW Golf TDI and let me tell you why I drive it. It gets 10mpg more than the VW gasoline engine and has way more torque, so it accelerates a lot faster. Oh and I had a steak last night and love life.
     
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  16. jabberwalkie

    jabberwalkie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Hey if Audi or VW made a diesel for the street like they got in the R15, I'd buy one.

    [​IMG]

    Well, if you're not cheating you're not trying right? Oh wait.... That's in racing, not the consumer market. ;)
     
  17. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    So I had to dump my beloved decade old Mazda 5 this weekend for a second Subaru Outback. I'd read a bit about the VW issue, but the guy who sold me my car was so obsessed about it that he could hardly focus on making the sale. His Subaru dealership owner also owns an Audi/Volkswagon dealership, and I guess the whole business is buzzing about what's going to happen to the VW business.

    I've often wondered why diesel cars have never been able to get any traction in the U.S. Maybe it's partly because the regs are so stringent that no car maker can get into the market cost-effectively. It's probably a vicious circle. Diesel sales in the U.S. are such that it's difficult for VW to justify making the proper investments in bringing their cars up to spec. And outside the Audi brand VW is struggling in the U.S. It may have bred an environment of desperation on the part of VW's execs.
     
  18. KnightWriter

    KnightWriter Administrator Emeritus star 9 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Nov 6, 2001

    That makes sense, but it would have to go back at least five to seven years, since I doubt this was thought up and executed in a short period of time.

    Edit: Volkswagen now says eleven million cars throughout the world are affected:

    Volkswagen Says 11 Million Cars Worldwide Are Affected in Diesel Deception

     
  19. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    so much for my theory.

    I guess Germans love the fuel efficiency of diesel and the energy efficiency in general of diesel engines. It's almost the opposite of the scenario I described above perhaps: a vicious circle in the opposite direction. VW knew Europeans loved diesel because of the high cost of petrol throughout western Europe, and they were desperate to serve that demand despite an inability to make diesel work cost-effectively from the perspective of emissions regs.

    Or I'm probably wrong about that too.
     
  20. jabberwalkie

    jabberwalkie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    The problem is that diesel engines are incredibly expensive comparatively when they are purchased initially, and even in the used market the command a premium price. I was in the market for a vehicle roughly a year ago and was considering purchasing a TDI Passat, but damn those things don't depreciate in value nearly as quickly as their gas/petrol counterparts. I wouldn't necessarily say that the VW brand is suffering though. Well I mean it might very well be suffering now with this debacle, but VW has been selling decently well in the past save for this year AFAIK. For me, the problem I have with VW's cars is that the price point the cars are at is slightly higher in comparison to the other cars in the class and aren't necessarily a better deal. I know I personally would probably be inclined to purchase a Focus ST over a GTI or Mini Cooper S.

    Also, if something breaks on a diesel engine it is generally more costly than it would be on a gas/petrol counterpart. If I am looking at a used diesel car/truck, first thing I look for is maintenance records. If regular maintenance hasn't been completed on schedule or isn't done at all, that's already a car I pass on.

    On a separate note, if I could I would totally buy a BMW 335d. Talk about a car with gobs of torque.
     
  21. EHT

    EHT Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Sep 13, 2007
    Wow... it just gets worse. I can't think of another comparable issue for another manufacturer in the automotive industry.
     
  22. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    As a young German-speaking lawyer 20 years ago I worked at the fringes of the massive GM-VW lawsuit when VW plundered GM's global sourcing executive who brought much of his team with him along with a truckload of proprietary GM documents. That was quite an education about automotive industry manufacturing on a global scale. Of course, it's one thing for giant corporations to bash each other over the heads with $100 million lawsuits, quite another when you're talking about defrauding consumers and the government.

    Useful comparisons here might be the ADM lysine price fixing scandal or the Enron/Arthur Andersen downfall.
     
  23. jabberwalkie

    jabberwalkie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Comparable dollar wise? Probably not, but GM is fixing to pay a good chunk of change in the near future for its ignition issues and Toyota that paid something like $1.3 billion last year. GM had known about its issue for a decade.
     
  24. Jabbadabbado

    Jabbadabbado Manager Emeritus star 7 VIP - Former Mod/RSA

    Registered:
    Mar 19, 1999
    Stock tanks, CEO resigns, someone goes to jail, heavy fines, massive loss of market share. Lots of stuff to look forward to.
     
  25. jabberwalkie

    jabberwalkie Jedi Master star 4

    Registered:
    Dec 2, 2014
    I'm sure all of that, except for someone goes to jail. Did anyone go to jail for the GM or Toyota scandals? I can't really recall.....