Vong/New Republic/Jedi War strategy

I've just finished reading Star by Star and its pretty obvious that the New Republic and the Jedi are written as absolutely pathetic at war strategy.

For instance the whole star wars universe has become pretty lame. For instance placing a 17 year old kid (Anakin) in a ground combat mission that is vitally important seems absurd. The whole plan centered on sending in a jedi team with the illusion of being captured only to escape--find their way to Mykr, blow some sort of breeding facility and then escape by stealing another ship.

This plan was doomed to failure from the beginning. The jedi sent in have really no commando experience, no real commando training (even if they can use the force what good would it do on a planet that can block out the force)--they have no real demolitions experience in blowing up the facility and most importantly of all they have absolutely no intelligence on how many Jedi killers there are on the planet. If the Vong had Jedi-Killers there--then why wasnt every corner lined with ysalmari (sp?).

In addition, if the Vong are so great at Biotechnology, why didnt they store the ysalmari in the cage when the jedi were initially captured? or carry them on every ship?

But aside from that one thing that really bothered me was when Han objected to the whole mission from the beginning---his kids asked him was was wrong with Anakin's plan. Well obviously the risk factor is too great to just wildly send Jedi (who were becoming rare) on some wild mission with absolutely no intel about the situation.

Another point of contention is the Luke seems to be acting like Montgomery in this war. Absoultely pathetic--when attacked the first thing on his mind is defend--not counterattack like Patton. Kyp seems to act like Patton--anytime he's attacked his response is counterattack. Both generals were idiots really, Luke and Kyp need to start acting like Omar Bradley who was in between. But one central problem with Luke is that it seems that he just doenst understand that his survival is at stake!! He seems to want to preserve the purity of the "light side of the force" which is fine--but during a war when an enemy is out to enslave you and then brutally execute you without any compromise--the enemy must be destroyed before you are!!

Second of all the battle of coruscant was interesting--why were the Vong dropping troops--that is the stupidest thing. Even if the vong fleet had leveled the planet there must have been billions of people in those architectures who could have formed guerilla troops. When the germans attacked Leningrad, Moscow, and Stalingrad during world war 2---they became so tied down and beaten by urban warfare--that it allowed Marshals Zhukov and Rokossovski to form a pincer and take out the germans at Stalingrad. The point is that any siege is extremely expensive in terms of manpower and materials to an agressor. The Vong have to capture, but the New republic merely has to survive.

If everyone new the Vong were coming, why werent planets organized into civilian militias. No mention is made of that in the book--even the lowliest general or colonel could organize such an emergency plan. It would be simple to start with

1.) gathering all the medical supplies and food (simple enough there must be tons to last a couple of decades)
2.) place anyone with any knowledge of biology into research labs to work on vaccines--NR learned a lot recently
3.) Organize groups into 12 men teams to carry out war
4.) Use experienced officers to provide on the job training to militia
5.) Use every droid and assign them to weapons making--there must be millions of droids on the planet--and if materials were canabalized then it should be simple to get it.
6.) Hold out for a couple of years and make the Vong thow everyting they have on you, tie up their manpower and resources.

What do you guys think of the NR's battle strategy?

 

First of all Darth Death,
They did not go to Myrkr, they were on a Vong worldship, the Baanu Rass

It explains clearly enough in SbS that none of the Masters could go because the Vong would recognise the trick....

They used voxyn not ysalmiri

Oh yes, let's see the Jedi all go dark, then the galaxy wouldn't be worth living in ...in fear of Dark Jedi, they are worse than the Vong

 

The point is that the strategy was stupid in the beginning--to send in completely inexperience warriors. It doenst matter if the jedi masters had gone in--it would still be doomed to failure .

about the world ship your missing the point.


About the dark jedi--yeah I agree but when the US was fighting the Nazi's were our soldiers evil? When Patton attacked Rommel in the desert--were the US soldiers under his command evil or were they doing what was necessary to stop the Nazi?

During the attack on the Normandy beach were allied forces evil????

When the Russians slaughtered Einzgruppen (sp?--they were gestapho who were sent into Russia to exterminate Jews and Russians--General Recheinau an german ordered them to use only one bullet to kill prisoners because they were machine gunning Jews and Russians to death for the hell of it) were they evil or were they trying to survive??

This is war you dont win the war by dying for your country YOU WIN WARS BY MAKING THE OTHER POUR BASTARD DIE FOR HIS COUNTRY

 

Your historical figures don't have the Force... A handful of Dark Jedi could wreak havoc on the GFFA, it took someone as good as Yoda to take down the Bpfasshi Dark Jedi and that was just one Jedi and the Bpfasshi have hated Jedi ever since. Imagine that effect multiplied by twent or thirty and there aren't any Jedi as good as Yoda. Look at CoPL the only way to keep the Nightsisters in control was to make sure there were no ships on the planet

 

Ah yes, but then if you escaped war crime trials and leave religion entirely out of the equation, then it really wasn't that necessary to draw a line between evil and reasonable self preservation in World War Two. However, for the Jedi they do need to stop and think about this stuff once in a while, because they may fall under the influence of the Dark Side, which would be counter-productive.

I do agree that the mission was a bit suss, but i appreciate that the idea was for a really important and tough, dangerous mission to rest solely in the hands of the next generation. I applaud the principle behind that. It was cool to see the Young/Junior Jedi Knights now more or less grown up and working together as a team (like wityh the personalised call-signs and stuff). The logic behind the justification for the mission was not really sound, but then it would be hard to come up with a really good reason for the kids and not the seasoned adults to take on the mission. That said, i think that Anakin Solo was a poor choice for the leader. Sure, the kid has potential, but it would be like sending a 16 year-old Wedge Antilles and putting him in command of the Bacta War 'mission' for example. The young Antilles would have not being able to efficiently lead the group during that period (or on any of the other really tough Rogue/Wraith missions). Anakin has not developed enough to handle the stress and repurcussions of this level of mission. Wedge started out as a green pilot in Red Squadron's hit-and-run/patrol missions, Anakin's leadership should have started out on a lower key. It must be really hard to be a leader when your decisions might well send one of the people you like to their deaths, but they still have to be made and made well.

On Luke, sure he's had some experience over the years, but he was never the best tactician. (Take for example, willingly coming under the influence of the Dark Side in order to betray it, he needed Leia and Han to pull his bacon out of that particular fire). Also, he's been in a juggling act for most of NJO : trying to keep hotheads from getting killed and attempting to keep his people from falling into the Dark Side, whilst trying, unsuccessfully to maintain the Jedi's image and its core integrity (which is difficult when you have ppl like Kyp refusing to take orders and he should have gotten some help with the PR as he has no experience in that department), whilst also playing in the political arena (which again is not what he excels at). Though you must admit that a surprising number of Senators still supported the Jedi in SbS, so he must have had some success. Hopefully, now we shall see him in a position to perform better as he has been released from several of his tasks (PR, for instance, has become simple : win battles,good. Lose battles, bad and win the war, hero). The Jedi River idea has placed Luke in a good position to reform and gather together Jedi for his forces (as seen by Kyp's reluctant return)

 

Do you know why the Germans became as bogged down as they did? For one, they over extended their lines at a rate that far exceeded the pace of their supply trains. For another the Russians fell back bit by bit, razeing their own towns and villages which the Germans could have used to forage from. And for another, winter set in. As they had figured the Russian offensize would take less time than it did, the Germans did not prepare for combat under such harsh conditions. Because they had extended their lines beyond their supply train, they could not get winter gear in time even if they had asked for it. The operation was doomed from the start.

 

I agree with you about the Jedi mission to destroy the voxyn was a mistake on the galactic scale. I can think of four reasons you might not have considered. First off, consider what they were up against. A worldship full of Yuuzhan Vongs, voxyns, and who knows what else. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have realized that while the mission might succeed, the price would be very high (death, capture, turning to the Dark Side), and the Jedi can't afford to lose any more members, with the exception of Kyp.

Secondly, consider this. By the time the Jedi team was captured, the voxyns were pretty much beyond the experimental stage. All the research leading up to that point occurred at one location. With the voxyns field-tested, would you have left everyting in one basket, so as to speak? I wouldn't. I'd have sent several of the shapers who worked on the project to another location with all the necessary data and material to continue creating voxyn. That way, if anything happened to the primary lab, the production of the voxyn would have slowed down, but not come to a complete stop. Tahiri's the only one who could have known if the Yuuzhan Vong would have taken this action.

Thirdly, granted the queen was killed, but how many voxyns remain. Even if they eventually deteriorate within two months, that's an additional two months during which more Jedi could die.

Finally, who's to say that the voxyns are gone for good. The vornskrs are still around, and another shaper, Nen Yim in particular, could be able to recreate the voxyn queen. Maybe even improve upon the queen so cloning the original won't be necessary.

 

I don't think the Vong's intention is to control Coruscant. As was stated earlier, it would take so much time, effort and use too many resources. I think the Vong understand this. IN the end, they may just blockade the planet.

I think their intention was to :

a) drive the NR government off the planet - possibly destroying as much of it as possible. The governemnt may continue to exist, but a government on the run loses a great deal of its effectiveness. Of course, the NR goverment was almost paralyzed as it was, so this may actually backfire on the Vong. This may lead to the military taking the lead in the NR. (Rebel Dream?)

b) destroy the morale of the rest of the NR. If Coruscant couldn't be defended, then what world could? This fear could further drive the worlds of the NR apart, possibly leading to its collapse.

c) establish a bargaining position against the Jedi. Always trying to capture the Jedi, the Vong now have billions of beings of all races to try and force the Jedi to surrender.

I think that the next couple of books will establish that the Vong have a plan for Coruscant. They've been 2 steps ahead so far, and I have no reason to think they don't know what they're doing at Coruscant.

 

Something just occured to me. Does anyone remember exactly how the Jedi learned that voxyn were being cloned at Myrkr ? I was just thinking it is very unlike the Vong to put all their eggs in one basket. They usually go for the largest amount spread over the largest distance possible in their strategy so far. And their strategy has mopped the floor with the NR. Why start now with the voxyn ? And if the voxyn are all clones of the queen then they can just clone any old voxyn anywhere. I got a bit offtrack, sorry. My idea was that Nom Anor (or maybe Vergere, if she is evil) or some other sneaky Vong allowed false info to reach the Jedi in the hopes of luring some in. Or perhaps one of the Dark Jedi released the info in the hopes of bringing in Jedi to allow their escape.

 

All the voxyn had the same genetic coding - therefore clones
One of the voxyn had a ysalmiri in its stomach which had olbara leaves in its stomach which were analuysed for metal content and found to correlate with Myrkr

 

i just dont understand why the Vong can make another voxyn ? They still controll Myrkr with all the nessesary components.

 

Hmmm... a voxyn just happened to eat a ysalamiri (fresh from Myrkr) when the ysalamiri were the objects of intense scientific study (or what passes for it among the Vong). Surely, the Vong are not so callous about living weapons that they just happen to feed them to their other living weapons that are sent directly to battle and hence leaving a trail for anyone who manages to take down a voxyn ? A conspiracy theorist could have a fun time with this.

I don't normally look for conspiracy theories but in this case i think i'll make one ; the chances of the Jedi just happening to kill the one voxyn where the Vong security procedures slipped up and left a trail to their place of manufacture, well those are fairly long odds. This leads me to conclude that a fair number of voxyn were fed ysalamiri. Now, the Vong don't make too many mistakes and this was a high-class operation they had going on at Myrkr. Hence, i doubt that the Vong themselves regularly feed voxyn with ysalamiri, especially not ones that have come up so direct that they still have undigested food in their stomachs. Now, i seem to recall that the non-Vong inhabitants had a lot to do with the voxyn in their development of their attacking style. Most of the inhabitants are slaves and would not dare strike against their masters. However, there were two Dark Jedi present at the facility. During Agents of Chaos, at least one and maybe more Vong felt that it would be good idea to contact the Jedi's enemies, at least one felt they could become allies. I received the impression that the Nightsister mrk II's were cooperating with the Vong. However, at the first oppurtunity, they grabbed a ship and made a run for it. This indicates that they were not entirely happy with their circumstances, and if they cooperated with the Vong i imagine they would have helped with ysalamiri experiments as part of their 'work'. This was foreshadowed way back in Heir to the Empire when Karrde mentioned to Luke that one day someone might test the range and capability of the ysalamiri on a Force-sensitive. Given the fact that the Vong themselves did not think that the Jedi would locate and attack the facility, it is likely that they did not set a trap for the Jedi nor did they sanction the feeding of ysalamiri.

This is the scenario that i envision ; the Dark Jedi cooperate whilst waiting for an oppurtunity. They decide to steal a ship from the Vong hangar bay, however they do not have the muscle to pull it off. They decide to alert the Jedi to the facility's location, anticipating that a team would be sent, in the hopes of using them by either stealing their ride or using the Jedi to help steal another craft. They go about this by arranging to steal a batch of fresh ysalamiri from the Vong. They can easily do this, because of the above-stated circumstances. They then feed the ysalamiri to voxyn who are on their last practice attacks on the slaves. They know that the Jedi will be the ones to fight the voxyn and all they have to do is wait until the Jedi kill one and find the ysalamiri.

I ask you to find a fault in that very long, long set of logic

 

KNIGHT 1192 or whoever posted the reply to why the germans failed:

No the operation was not doomed from the start--yes the german supply lines got too far extended, but hta was only because the Russians were fighting hand to hand in the cities where every few seconds someone would die (actual fact).

Also if the german generals had been allowed to fight without interference from Hitler--then the war in the Russian heartland would not have been that devastating for the germans.

to whoever stated that the historical figures I presented could not use the force--what difference does it make? Seriously...back then Truman had the nuclear bomb (lets liken that to the force)...do most Americans consider him evil for using it. Yes there are regrets looking back, but at the time and place it was the right tactical move. Most armed service personel (except perhaps MacArthur--have no idea why he of all people wouldnt want the bomb used) supported the descision and even today the miliatary has never really apologized nor will they ever. Giving Japan economic support really doesnt count

 

Not too bright are we?

First of all, Anikan had more Vong kills than anybody else in the galaxy, he also understood them the best (next to Tahiri).

Second of all, you're also not that observant. They were on the Worldship! Not on the planet!

And there were ysalamari all over the place, they just killed them all!

It was also a very necessary mission, if they didn''t kill the queen the Jedi would have been annhialated.

Try to get your facts strait please.

 

I agree with you about the Jedi mission to destroy the voxyn was a mistake on the galactic scale. I can think of four reasons you might not have considered. First off, consider what they were up against. A worldship full of Yuuzhan Vongs, voxyns, and who knows what else. Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have realized that while the mission might succeed, the price would be very high (death, capture, turning to the Dark Side), and the Jedi can't afford to lose any more members, with the exception of Kyp.


The original plan wasn't to actually go inside, it was to destroy it. And I think Kyp is more important than most, your opinions cloud your judgement

 

Jag_Fel and those like you,

Get over it--okay so I got a few details wrong...I'm so sorry that mixing up a few details has put you in such disarray that you cannot understand the main point that I was trying to make.

The purpose of this was not about details but about the general concept.

Now to the statement that Anakin understands the Vong!!! It certainly doesnt appear that way--why just because Anakin says he understands the Vong, doesnt mean that he actually does. WE've just scratched the surface of Vong psychology in this series.

Additionally, so what if Anakin is the greatest Vong killer--that doesnt mean anything if you go in with an idiotic plan of action.

The type of combat described with the Vong staffs is a lot of close quarters combat--

 

What the New Republic needs to do is come together. They have been to seperated, each senetor taking a ship and so on. I would also like to see the first real tactical win of the Allience.

 

Hmm....some people just will never get the idea behind the strike team mission. Even though it was practically spelled out for them in SbS.

 

We all know the idea of the strike team. But how it was used was very poorly done.

There are books written by ex-Navy Seals, Green Berets, Rangers that describe the incredible detail and thought that is given to a mission before it is assigned. For instance, the US military has more than once scrubbed missions when poor intelligence of the area was available--not knowing the number of guard dogs, stairs it takes to reach a room etc....

 

Anyone think the Jedi Strike in SBS was similar to the events in Somalia depicted in Black Hawk Down?

 

Hmm....not really. It's similar sorta, if you can stretch reality that far, but I dunno. Doesn't seem like it.