Wahey!!! I have got REBIRTH...and it's so dissapointing...

Discussion in 'Literature' started by Simone, Aug 26, 2001.

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  1. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Bror--

    This is your so-called "opinion":

    They are obviously gearing these books at younger readers with short attention spans.

    Since you are speaking about the intentions of the producers of the NJO, you are making an assertion about a fact.

    In other words, either the people making the NJO are gearing the series toward a younger audience, or they are not.

    Now, we've had two NJO authors in this forum state that the NJO is NOT targeted for a younger audience than the Bantam line. Based on these statements, your assertion is obviously in error.
  2. Booster-1986 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 2
    AniSS ... I will offer my opinion ... and notwithstanding what you may have been told (do you really think they would tell yoyu otherwise), the complexity, characterizations and general style of writing (very short chapters, dropped plot threads, etc.) is indictitive of writing aimed at younger readers. Now you can decide where the cutoff is, but IMHO, the NJO is not geared to the same audience that TTT or THoT was. Hell, even CotJ was more detailed than the NJO.
  3. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Booster--

    I trust the integrity and honesty of RA Salvatore and Elaine Cunningham. I have no reason not to do so. And I'd expect them to be honest. There would be no shame in aiming the NJO at a younger crowd...indeed, the science fiction and fantasy reading community is too, ah, "mature" to begin with, and needs "fresh blood." Greg Bear has an interesting article on the subject on his web site.

    However, Mr. Salvatore and Ms. Cunningham have been unambiguous that the assumption that the NJO is aimed at a younger crowd than the Bantam series is in error. I have no reason to doubt their word. Not one.

    But your own, subjective opinion of the writing of the series is just that...an opinion. You make the mistake of projecting your opinion on the intentions of the creators of the series. That's an easy error to make, but it is an error nonetheless.
  4. aleja Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Sep 23, 1999
    star 3
    Wow, the more time I spend away from here, the more things stay the same.

    I see Genghis is his usual charming self, as is AniSS.

    I've missed you - NOT.

    Thank goodness the NJO books are devoid of anything resembling a compelling plot and complex characterization. They've completely killed my interest in the EU. After only reading half of Conquest, I flipped through Rebirth then sent it on to the next person on the book tree. Life's too short to read bad novels by decent writers whose original work should be supported instead of this dren. I'm only in the forum to check out a post by Jade's Fire in another thread - very revealing JF! Too bad most people will miss what is in front of their faces ;)

  5. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Booster--

    One more thing...I was in a rush earlier, so I didn't have time to add it.

    Compared to several fantasy novels or series I've read (including The Lord of the Rings, The Wheel of Time, The Dark Tower, The Demon Wars, The Dark Glory War, Age of Unreason, Earthsea, Mary Stewart's Arthurian cycle, and the Alvin Maker series, one of your oft-cited favorites, the Belgariad/Mallorean by David Eddings, seems aimed at a younger audience.

    That's my impression based largely on his style of writing--the ways that he portrays people's inner emotions, describes their surroundings and their reactions...I don't know. It's just a vague impression...

    But I have never thought to myself, "David Eddings deliberately aimed this series at a younger audience than Robert Jordan, RA Salvatore, Ursula Le Guin, Orson Scott Card, etc. aimed their novels."

    Why? Simply because I can't get inside his head. My opinion is just that--an opinion. Not a fact. It doesn't give me insight into someone else's head. I prefer to have more to go on before I start speculating freely about the motives of someone I don't even know.
  6. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    its so funny how stubborn you bashers are :)
  7. Jades Fire Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Nov 8, 1998
    star 4
    Why I really don't understand is the unrestrained, outright hostility, attacking and flaming of people who do not like the NJO.
  8. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    What I really don't understand is the unrestrained, outright hostility, attacking and flaming of people who do like the NJO as well as crusades to tarnish the good name of accomplished authors, editors and publishers through the repitition of lies, misinformation and misdirection.
  9. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    [sarcasm]Yeah, because all NJO haters are well thought out people, who think crefully before saying something[/sarcasm]

    Both sides are as bad. Don't act like there is any other answer
  10. Dewlanna Solo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Oct 31, 1999
    star 4
    Let me put it this way, Ani and see if you can understand what I'm saying.
    RAS and Ms Cunninham may very well think they are writing to a general audience.
    But, it's not a question of what Salvatore, Cunningham and others think they are writing, it is a question of the readers' perception of what they are reading that really matters.
    Now if VP and Conquest seem to you to be written on the same scale as HttE, I, Jedi, The Hutt Gambit, CotJ, and such, fine, go right ahead and think that. You are entitled to your opinion. I find (**opinion alert**) that the NJO, so far, has NOT been what I would consider main line general audience SciFi like most of the Bantam books.
    I sincerely hope that DelRey IS targeting a teen and young adult audience, ?cuz if they aren't, they have a very low opinion of the reading abilities and comprehension skills of grown up space opera readers.

    (**IMHO**) VP and the other NJO books can't hold a candle to the best of the Bantam for plot development, complexity of vocabulary, length and involvement of story. They have not been as juvenile as the Young Jedi Knights (Though Conquest came close to being in the same class as the best of the YJK). But they are not the same general audience fare to which we had become accustomed.
    Furthermore, most of the NJO books seem (**note the use of the word seem an opinion follows**) to be less complex and less ?grown up' then non-SW works by those authors.

    A word about Eddings. Ani, have you ever read High Hunt? It is written in that same relaxed chatty style as the Belgariad and the Malloreon. But it is most decidedly an "adult" novel. The level of sex and violence, the frequent use of profanity and obscenity make it an R rated book. When Eddings wrote the Belgariad, he didn't change his writing style, he just toned down the ?adult' content. Whether he did this consciously to make the books acceptable to middle school librarians or if the story just didn't need explicit sex scenes and R rated language, I have no idea. The content of the Belgariad differs from High Hunt but the writing style is unaltered

    I have not read any of Ms Cunningham's works, nor any of RAS and Luceno's non-SW books. But I have read many of KT's other stories and enough of Keyes to know what his writing style is like. The difference in BP and KT's other books is not too glaring, it's mostly the ho-hum plot of the NJO that makes BP a less enjoyable read then KT's other works (SW and non-SW). But the difference between "J. Gregory Keyes" and "Greg Keyes" is like night and day. A bigger difference in style than KJA's Jedi Academy and his YJK. Like the difference between "Paul French" and "Isaac Asimov."

    Asimov writing as Asimov does not change his style when writing PG material. Neither does Heinlein, Mary Stewart, nor Ann McCaffrey (to name just a few authors whose G, PG and R material I am familiar with.)
    Keyes' style is most definitely different in Waterborn and Conquest/Rebirth.
    This is the most glaring example of what many of us see (**Yes, that's an opinion alert word**) as a "dumbing down" or simplification of Star Wars literature. The remaining NJO books are not as "Young Adult" seeming (**opinion**) as Keyes' books, but they seem (**opinion**) to me and others to have a "Young Adult" flavor to them that was noticeably absent in the bulk of the pre-NJO works.
    If RAS and the rest think they are writing general PG rated SciFi/fantasy and not aiming for a teen audience, then (**IMHO**) they should read of the PG works of Heinlein, Asimov, Tyers, Zahn, Crispin, Hambley and see how PG writing for an audience that includes mature readers is done, because (**opinion**) the NJO is NOT written for the same mixed readership as the Bantam books.
  11. Booster-1986 Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    May 9, 2001
    star 2
    Let me ask you folks a question. How many of you like sushi? Lots? OK. For me, sushi is another word for "bait". On the other hand, how many are vegetarians? Hands up. I, OTOH, like chicken and stuff like that.

    Do I denigrate those who like sushi or don't eat meat? NO! Do I repsect their views? YES! Do we all agree to disagree on food tastes? YES!

    I see the same here. I <opinion alert> dislike the NJO for reasons that are both personal and not-so-personal. Others <opinion alert> believe it to be the best thing since sliced bread.

    Unless we are prepared to accept that there is a gulf between us, and accept that opinions and views will differ, there can never be any conciliation.

    I find the personal attacks and flaming distasteful. If anthing, they should be confined to PM. As I said in another post, can't we all just get along?

    Let us agree that we will not agree on the NJO and let it be. I do not plan to pursue this anymore, and I humbly request that others do the same.
  12. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    The Food Metaphor Strikes Back! :D

    As almost as interesting as the discussion itself is the evolution of the "food metaphor" in NJO discussions.
  13. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    Dewlanna--

    You assert....

    RAS and Ms Cunninham may very well think they are writing to a general audience.
    But, it's not a question of what Salvatore, Cunningham and others think they are writing, it is a question of the readers' perception of what they are reading that really matters.


    On the contrary, the intentions of the authors, editors, and publishers is precisely the issue here. Readers' opinions about the writing will always differ.

    Now if VP and Conquest seem to you to be written on the same scale as HttE, I, Jedi, The Hutt Gambit, CotJ, and such, fine, go right ahead and think that. You are entitled to your opinion. I find (**opinion alert**) that the NJO, so far, has NOT been what I would consider main line general audience SciFi like most of the Bantam books.

    Dewlanna, if by the "main line general audience for SciFi" you mean "people who read science fiction and fantasy outside of media [movies, TV shows, and games] tie-ins," then I will flatly state that I think that most Star Wars novels aren't written for this general audience anyway, regardless of publisher or author.

    I think this "general audience" is older than Star Wars fans or fans of other media tie-in works. Indeed, I'm afraid that the core of the readership hasn't changed for thirty years. At his web site, Greg Bear has a great essay on the aging of this population. From that essay:

    We've all heard about declining literacy. Sherry Gotleib tells that when she first opened the Change of Hobbit bookstore, in L.A., it thronged when the local junior high let out. Over time, these customers stayed loyal... but weren't replaced. In the store's final years, Sherry's average customer was gray-flecked or balding, and the few teens who showed up focused on media or comics. Polls show an ageing of the SF readership. Science fiction themes are popular -- in films, comix and games -- but the genre's literary heart faces demographic collapse.

    Worst of all, countless kids forget how to say the most beautiful word in any language -- "Wow!"


    Novels that I've read by Mike Stackpole, Alan Dean Foster, RA Salvatore, Kevin Anderson, Greg Bear, Michael Kube-McDowell and Greg Keyes that are neither Star Wars novels nor other media tie-ins all seem to reflect this demographic. They seem aimed at a somewhat older audience than the authors' Star Wars material.

    I find no difference between Bantam and Del Rey in that regard. None.

    Now if VP and Conquest seem to you to be written on the same scale as HttE, I, Jedi, The Hutt Gambit, CotJ, and such, fine, go right ahead and think that.

    Here's what I think--what I posted in another thread already:

    I can't see the difference between "writing levels" in earlier Star Wars books and those in the NJO.

    I happened to read Mike Stackpole's Bantam novels in close conjunction with Dark Tide. In fact, I had just started The Bacta War when I picked up and sped through Onslaught. I found no difference in MAS's style or level of writing between his Bantam books and his two NJO novels. Likewise, I could see no difference in the writing levels of Kathy Tyers' Truce at Bakura compared to Balance Point--two books I again read (reread, in the case of TaB) back-to-back.

    Jim Luceno's style of writing is at a similar or higher "level" than that of his old partner's, Brian Daley, and comparable to that of the other Han Solo author, Ann Crispin. The plots of his three Star Wars novels are more complex than the vast majority of Bantam's novels. RA Salvatore's Vector Prime has a visual style reminiscent of Kevin Anderson's Jedi Academy Trilogy, a strength of characterization reminiscent of Roger Allen MacBride's Corellian Trilogy, and a writing "level" that compares with both authors. Greg Keyes writes teenage heroes with aplomb, and Conquest's insights into the Yuuzhan Vong culture give the YV more depth than Tim Zahn gave the Noghri.


    I should add, by the way, that Greg Bear's Rogue Pl
  14. I-poodoo Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 1, 2001
    star 4
    Simone, i think for the most part you'll find that most people liked Rebirth (I did despite its briefness).

    As for those that have stated that they do not like NJO in the thread, that's good, that's your oppinion and I accept and recognize that, howerever wrong you are about it. Those are your feelings and convictions leading you to bash and there's very little I can say will change that. So I won't even try.

    I liked Rebirth. You didn't. I thought it was worthwhile, though too short. You didn't. What's left to say?
  15. MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 5
    LOL! The NJO is not dumbed down writing. That is the funniest thing I have heard all day. You guys make me laugh.

    You don't find it that way fine, but why don't you all just put out your big sign that says. NJO CRITICS Not allowed!

    Contrary to what you people think, reading a book and finding that it does not appeal to you or meet certain standards that you have come to expect, and stating those "opinions!"
    is not BASHING. Just because you don't like the fact that some of us find the NJO lacking is no reason to start throwing names around. Please give it a rest.


  16. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    oh, but youre basically calling people stupid for disagreeing with you. Why don't YOU give it a rest?
  17. Anakin SkySolo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Dec 20, 1999
    star 4
    MariahJade--

    Contrary to what you people think, reading a book and finding that it does not appeal to you or meet certain standards that you have come to expect, and stating those "opinions!"

    Yes, you are correct. If you state your views about the writing of a book, you are stating your opinion.

    When you make reference to the intentions of the authors, publishers, or editors, such as claiming that they are "obviously" gearing these books to a younger audience, then you are making an assertion about FACTS.

    And that means that your assertion can be judged either true or false.
  18. Ghent42 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2001
    star 4
    Speaking of food . . .
    I'm a vegetarian, and there is one thing the just gets on my nerves soooo much. Some Induhvidual will ask if I eat hamburgers or something and the conversation goes like this:

    Me: No, I don't eat hamburgers. I'm a vegetarian.
    Induhvidual: Well, what about fish? Do you eat fish?
    Me: No.
    Induhvidual: How about chicken? Do you eat chiken?
    Me: Are chicken vegetables?
    Induhvidual: How about clams? Or Oysters?
    Me: THOSE ARE ANIMALS! NOT VEGETABLES! Vegetarian means I do NOT EAT ANIMALS!

    Back to Star Wars. Sadly, this thread is starting to bounce back and forth between debate class and semi-polite flaming. I predict a close by admins soon.

    Buuuuut, while it's still open, I'll throw in my thirteen cents worth.
    I think there is no point in the argument. It's seems to me that the NJO are definately geared towards a slightly younger audiance. But, that doesn't mean the older audience can't still enjoy them, just that a younger audience might enjoy them more than the Bantam books. Personally, I read the old books when I was pretty young, like 10 or so. But that doesn't mean I can't enjoy the NJO, even if it may be slightly less advanced and more predictable. It's still good Star Wars fun.

    EDIT: Also, it may not even be that the books are geared younger, it may just be the mostly different authers. Too bad Zahn isn't coming back for HC5 or something. That would rock.
  19. ChildOfWinds Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Apr 7, 2001
    star 5
    Ghent42:It's still good Star Wars fun.

    For me, this is one of the biggest problems with the NJO books. They are NOT fun. They are not entertaining. They are about as enjoyable as a train wreck. In my opinion, the only good thing that happened in eight books was the birth of Ben Skywalker, and I don't think even that was handled well.

    I find the NJO Star Wars books depressing, discouraging, irritating, and disappointing.

  20. MariahJade2 Former Fan Fiction Archive Editor

    VIP
    Member Since:
    Mar 18, 2001
    star 5
    Ghengis I don't think anyone here is stupid, sorry if you felt that way. I'm in a good mood today and I honestly just find it funny how people can look at the same thing and see something so totally different. What seems "obvious" to one person is not at all to another.

    I just object to being told that my personal reaction to a book is "wrong". Liking or not liking something is not "wrong".

    The real problem, is why there is this split in the first place. With Bantam I never felt this way. I think that was because they catered to all the different Star Wars fan bases. There were the JJK and the YJK books for the younger readers, the x-wing books for the action oriented, the tales from books for those who wanted to see more about minor characters, and the Adult books for the adults and anyone who wanted to read them. I enjoyed all of them because I knew what the situation was going in. I have great difficulty enjoying the NJO. Now it feels to me like they have chosen one audience to cater too and the rest have been pushed aside. No matter the intent of the company or the writers, there are enough people that react the same way I do to these books that I don't think it can possibly be good for the future of Star Wars lit.

    How can losing any part of your fan base be good? It is certainly no longer fun for me.

  21. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    ChildofWinds,
    Good to see you join the discussion. Jade's Fire's "Bootlicker Battalion" seemed incomplete without you. :D

    MariahJade2...
    "Ghengis I don't think anyone here is stupid, sorry if you felt that way."

    I believe you've lost track of the discussion. While your flaming of NJO fans who believe the intelligence level of the novels is no less or more on par with prior Star Wars books was interesting, I didn't comment on it - Reaperfett did.
  22. ReaperFett Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 9, 1999
    star 6
    Shush! I'll get dog turd through the letterbox now! :)
  23. Grand Admiral Wettengel Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 10, 2000
    star 4
    I usually don't comment on writing styles, but I see EoV as having definitely brought forth a definitive change in writing style.

    Yes, I know that in the past I said I don't comment on writing style, but EoV is just such a departure in terms of style in my eyes that it alarmed me.

    I believe that starting with BP a shift began in the NJO. The adult characters--all those out of their teens--were to be shifted off into the background even more to make room for the Solo uberkinden and possibly all their young friends. BP centered on Jacen and his idiotic moral dilemma, Conquest had Anakin as the sole protagonist and Rebirth had the uberkinden center stage yet again, while all the other Jedi were holed up on the Errant Venture and Luke continued to be Mr. Coward not even caring that the Vong were attacking Yavin 4 or that the Jedi he trained were being hunted down. While we are indirectly told that he does care on some level, his interaction with Kyp indicates the direct opposite: that Luke is an out-of-touch, idealistic sap who has outlived his usefulness.

    I never thought I'd read a SW novel were Luke Skywalker is mentioned only in passing or has only a cameo, but this is what has happened in Jedi Eclipse and Conquest. Luke only made a cameo to spout some philisphical drivel, then he disappears, even though his going to Yavin 4 could have been instrumental in showing Kyp that he is willing to act and possibly heal the rift between them. Then in Jedi Eclipse Luke's presence on Centerpoint could have been invaluable to getting Jacen to shut up and to remind both of them that that Centerpoint was being ordered to be used by the NR military; not the Jedi Order.

    If they want Jacen, Jaina and Anakin to be the stars of the series, the planning committee could have at least had the decency to kill Luke, Han, and Leia off.
  24. Ghent42 Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Apr 19, 2001
    star 4
    Say, that would be a great plot! Han, Leia, and Luke all bit the dust in one chapter! Sweeeeeto!

    And I agree with you about how the adults are getting shoved into the background, which means that (Maybe Spoiler, scroll down)




















    Killing Jimmy is the stupidest posible thing they can do to the series.
  25. Dev Sibwarra Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 4, 1999
    star 4
    Ghent42- DNRC member?

    And I think that most people realize that even though we call each other idiots and threaten various acts of violence sometimes, we mean it in a nice way. :)

    Is NJO being 'written down' to younger readers? Maybe, though I doubt that its intentional. Historically, though, Bantam's readers weren't much older. Stackpole is still Stackpole, and Luceno's books seem to be relatively complex. So was Balance Point. Conquest and Rebirth had a bit of a YJK tone that gradually faded. VP is debatable. I suspect that instead of a concerted effort by the publisher to write for younger readers, some of the authors chose a certain writing style.
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