War in Iraq?, version 4.0 (Official Iraq thread)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Ender Sai, Mar 12, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Darth Guy Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Aug 16, 2002
    star 10
    to use a nation's powers doesn't automatically equate with that nation being evil or a thinly veiled imperialist conqueror

    Of course.


    and it's true that iraq's military will have a limited military capacity. but so did japan and germany after WWII

    Well, they didn't have any other choice.

    Yes, I do think that it's unfair for the United States to repress(for lack of a better word) countries' political and millitary power, no matter how trustworthy they may be.
  2. DarthKarde Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    The looting of the museum was a major screw-up by the military no doubt from me about that.

    Why after all the notification from scholars here and abroad about the importance of the museum it was still looted?

    I have no idea. Bad deal all around.


    Those of us with cynical tendancies could be forgiven for suspecting that this was more than a screw-up. The proceeding destruction of the National Library and Archives, and the library of Korans at the Ministry of Religious Endownment only add to our suspisions which are further deepened when we learn that 35 government ministries have now been gutted by fire, the Oil and Interior ministries being the noteable exceptions.
  3. Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    There goes Chileeee...

    Emilie sometime ago you were complaining about people making French surrendor jokes, French being cowards and so forth because this was bashing your country, your culture, bringing up mistakes your country made in the past and slapping you in the face with them. I agreed with you then that it should stop, and I haven't made a French joke on these boards since, I have bashed the Chirac administration and of course Chirac himself, I done this in respect for you and the French people. Even with me showing my anger and frustration with the French for destroying Sept 11 plaques and defacing British WWI cemetaries.

    Now I humbly request you show me the same respect, 9-11-1973 wasn't exactly America's finest hour and we were wrong on that account, Mr Powell has even pubically apologized for it. Still you bring this up, slapping me and my country in the face with it constantly. Please stop it.
  4. yodashizzzle Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    i'm sorry. i agree with shanep on the museum issue. cynical or not, i'm sick of totally nonsensical arguements that somehow the museum incident was a deliberatley planned part of the american invasion executed by US marines. what?! i've asked it before and it wasn't addressed. why would someone deliberately give themselves a black eye? as shanep stated.....this is a bad situation all the way around. now............just where is the hidden upshot that the americans will be taking advantage of with their planned allowance of the looting? i mean, TRY to imagine an upshot for this situation where the americans could benefit. if you can even imagine (not PROVE), but just CONCEIVE of a possible upshot, let us all know.



    as far as france and french leadership goes, i don't respect them. they've slowly been losing power in the world sense and they are clearly bitter about this fact. it's not a joke, it's a fact that the french have been able to maintain less and less control over world events. they can cry, moan and complain all they want. many people weren't listening before 9-11-01 to what chirac said and even less are listening now. france has managed to make its own voice that much more irrelavant not by refusing to back the united states, but by so feverishly fighting the fact that they're not one of the dominant power in the world any longer. the more power they try to exert, the weaker their voice becomes.
  5. Na Wibo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2000
    star 3
    Those of us with cynical tendancies could be forgiven for suspecting that this was more than a screw-up.

    Especially in light of reports that US soldiers have helped by blowing open doors and shooting security guards, then encouraging people to take what they want. Or that, as arsonists hit Kirkuk's industrial buldings, US troops were stationed only at oil facilities. In the words of a US colonel, "Hey, don't screw with the oil".

    EDIT: How would this benefit the US? For one, I think it helps to give Iraqis a sense of needing an outside protector to save them from their own looters. It also provides that much more reconstruction opportunity. A super-cynical view seems to be that of one army officer: ?This is the new income redistribution program.? IE those rapacious enough to plunder museums are the ones who ought to make up the new upper economic class. I think that's a bit out there.
  6. yodashizzzle Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    can you provide ANY documentation, na wibo, or are you just willing to say that any of the things that angry, bitter anti-war propoganda machines might produce is fact? where did you get that? name a reporter, a news organization, ANYTHING!!! surely if these things you've introduced are fact, you can provide some kind of source reference, right?. or am i not supposed to trust the americans, their military, and anything associated with our government but i'm supposed to just blindly trust you with your quote?


    "For one, I think it helps to give Iraqis a sense of needing an outside protector to save them from their own looters."

    so the united states military would willingly and knowingly risk a backlash of cries of "IDIOTS!!!" for the chance to be seen as protectors from looters, huh? i'm sorry. there is no logic in this arguement. none. wouldn't it make more sense to have the transition from saddam's regime to an interim government go as smoothly as possible? and since the looters are still taking things from various parts of bagdad today, just when exactly do you suppose the military would spring it's carefully crafted trap of protecting against looters? they don't want to engage people in situations where they can be viewed as oppressive. so......looting has taken place. what would you have them do? shoot looters the way that they have at my grandmothers on the beach when periodic hurricanes devastate the area she lives in? the military is trying to achieve stability. it makes no sense to orchestrate a museum looting to instill some confidence in the US by suddenly dropping the smack down on looters.
  7. Na Wibo Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Apr 28, 2000
    star 3
    [link=http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/apr2003/iraq-a15.shtml]Source[/link] for those interested. This article references other sources (eg Swedish newspaper Dagens Nyheter) which I did not independently follow up on. Also this report by [link=http://argument.independent.co.uk/commentators/story.jsp?story=397925]Robert Fisk[/link].
  8. DarthKarde Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    i'm sorry. i agree with shanep on the museum issue. cynical or not, i'm sick of totally nonsensical arguements that somehow the museum incident was a deliberatley planned part of the american invasion executed by US marines. what?! i've asked it before and it wasn't addressed. why would someone deliberately give themselves a black eye? as shanep stated.....this is a bad situation all the way around. now............just where is the hidden upshot that the americans will be taking advantage of with their planned allowance of the looting? i mean, TRY to imagine an upshot for this situation where the americans could benefit. if you can even imagine (not PROVE), but just CONCEIVE of a possible upshot, let us all know.

    Maybe the gains are thought to be important enough to warrant the sustaining of a black eye and I can conceive of possible upshots. Firstly lets start with the simple, money. Moving onto the darker more cynical and sinister possibilities. A delibrate compaign to obliterate Iraq's cultural heritage, this is now year zero and we will build a new society in Iraq therefore their history is an impediment to this.

    I'm not saying that this is the case but I am extremely sceptical about what has happened. Protecting the museum would have been very easy, the US was warned in advance and did nothing. If this was just a screw up then several senior officers in the US army aren't fit to wear the uniform.
  9. yodashizzzle Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    uhhh...does a socialist news agency have perhaps an AGENDA against the united states? if this isn't verifiable from several well known and credible sources, it's just poppycock misinformation.



    spin, spin, spin, spin ,spin, spin.


    a quick recipe for this kind of journalism:

    take a fact. take it out of context.

    take a word. put the wrong em-PHA-sis on the wrong sy-LLA-ble.

    add a few important addendums regarding facts as seen fit by the "reporter."

    spin vigorously.


    net result: crazy conspiracy theories. feeds several million.


    how does the US gain in terms of money from the museum incident? i don't see how the united states would gain in terms of finances at all from this. and why would the idea of stability and trust (two important and clearly stated goals by american military and political leadership) be augmented by trying to destory iraqi heritage and culture deliberately? again, it just is an idea but for me it doesn't hold up under close scrutiny. it's like taking one step forward so that you can HOPE to take ten steps back.
  10. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    And how is that any different from FOX's own brand of journalism?!?

    E_S
  11. Fire_Ice_Death Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Feb 15, 2001
    star 7
    You're accusing a news agency of spin? Yeesh...how long have you been conked out? Every form of news spins, that's the purpose, to give you soundbytes of "facts" while leaving everything else, out. It's as simple as that.
  12. DarthKarde Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
    yodashizzzle

    Of course you have to bare in mind the biases of various media sources and reporters but you shouldn't dissmiss what they say just because of it. Robert Frisk has clearly let his anti-americanism get the better of him during this war and has thus lost some credibility but he is still an excellant journalist and posses some very awkward questions that IMO need answering.
  13. yodashizzzle Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    these were two PM's sent in response to the posts from above. since there's nothing particularly preventing them from being made public, i have chosen to do exactly that: [i/]


    And how is that any different from FOX's own brand of journalism?!? "


    no different. FOX is just as biased as any news agency. i get tired of their agenda that strokes the republican platform every bit as much as i get tired of CNN's constant negativism.

    who sucks more....oliver north reporting live from iraq telling us how awesome the marines are?.......or christiane amanpour trying to tug at everyone's heart with constantly driving the point home that children have been killed?


    it's a toss-up IMO. neither one is what i would call objective. but that article is about as slanted a piece of journalism as i've ever seen. objectivity was never a part of that bit of news. that was my point, really. i don't favor one news agency over another any more than i favor one particular political party over another. they ALL need to try to be more objective.



    --------------------------------------------


    "You're accusing a news agency of spin? Yeesh...how long have you been conked out? Every form of news spins, that's the purpose, to give you soundbytes of "facts" while leaving everything else, out. It's as simple as that."

    i couldn't agree more. haven't been conked out........maybe zoned out from the constant negativism on both sides of the war (and all areas in between, really). i strongly dislike every news agency pretty equally. i don't think truely objective reporting is even possible in a lot of cases. even the most unbiased of news reporters have their own beliefs which can manifest themselves through the subconscious. CNN, FOX, MSNBC, BBC........they're all the same when it comes to spinning stuff. but that article was one of the most unabashedly slanted pieces of journalism i've ever seen. i was waiting for the guy to work in some information about how the marines have been creating crop circles, too. and for good measure, maybe a reference or two to how the U.S. military conscripted elian gonzalez.

    i was waiting for some kind of quote like:

    "donald rumsfeld was seen debriefing the twelve year old cuban boy after elian successfully led the mission to raid and destroy the Iraqi National Museum"
  14. Red-Seven Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Oct 21, 1999
    star 5
    [link=http://slate.msn.com/id/2081571/]Mickey Kaus[/link]

    Post-regime change tristesse: If you're like me (or Instapundit), you're now caught in a vicious postwar bind. You're completely sick of the war -- sick of watching cable, sick of reading the paper. The military campaign's basically been won. The adrenalin is leaving your body. The overwhelming urge is to breathe a sigh of relief and get back to normal life, only more so: normal life minus current events. Yet this is just the moment when it's probably most important to pay attention to what is going on in the Middle East, because these are the weeks when we will or won't make the mistakes that will cost us the benefit of all the sacrifice of life and treasure. We always knew we'd win the war, after all. But we still don't know if we'll a) help establish a decent government in Iraq; b) handle the various ethnic, religious and political conflicts in a way that wins over Iraqis instead of pissing them off; or c) handle b) and the Arab-Israeli dispute in a way that doesn't encourage more terrorism than we've deterred. ...






    More 'spin'...just another perspective
    [link=http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/opedcolumnists/73422.htm]Looting and Lies[/link]
    THE most surreal experience of the war has been to watch the good-natured Baghdadi crowds streaming out of government office buildings carrying air conditioners and furniture, waving at passing GIs - and then to read the frenzied commentary about the latest American crime: "failing" to stop "swarms" of "frenzied looters."

    Those now expressing such concern about law and order in Baghdad were mostly quite cavalier about the sufferings of the Iraqi people under Saddam Hussein. And if their de facto support for the old regime weren't clear enough, some of these people are calling for the reinstatement of Saddam's bestial police forces.

    Any such partial return of the old regime would be a grotesque betrayal of everything we have fought for. Fortunately, the U.S. Army has at this point no intention of doing anything of the sort. Its officers here know that much of the reporting has been more frenzied than the looting itself, which is far more deliberate and targeted than much of the press corps realize - or will admit. And they have noticed that the looting is rarely accompanied by any violence. (The people, so far, have not been stringing up their former oppressors where they have found them.)

    As Col. Eric Wesley, executive officer of the 3rd Infantry's 2nd brigade (the mechanized unit that was the first to reach Baghdad and which controls most of the city), said yesterday, "You've got to look at the looting in the context of almost 30 years of oppression. It's orderly. It's mostly directed at government buildings, and it has already attenuated to a significant degree."

    Capt. Greg Robertson of the 4th Battalion, 64th Armored Regiment, explains the true situation in detail: "To say there that there is anarchy is not true, to say that there is looting is true. But if we shot looters, we'd be shooting women and children left and right."

    "Finding the headquarters of Republican Guard, Special Republican Guard and secret police is a first order of business for us. It's difficult because they were hidden in civilian dual-use structures. One of the places we were attacked was labeled a 'cotton factory.' It was full of weapons, bags of food. And one reason you see looting in places like that is that all the locals know about this dual use and they think these places are fair game."

    The hysterical tone of some press reports may reflect the fact that some of the reporters who have been sitting in Baghdad for months have lost sight of the nature of the Saddam regime: They are mystified by the exhilaration felt by so many liberated Iraqis.

    But the failure of so many reports to mention the fact that many of the looted stores, institutions and even hospitals were linked to the regime is more troubling. These institutions were dedicated to
  15. yodashizzzle Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    interesting stuff, red-seven. and much less biased, i'd say, than a significant number of other war related news accounts i've seen. thanks.
  16. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    I'm totally biased when it comes to Iraq. I want the U.S. to win the peace and help the Iraqis establish a democatic federation or confederacy.

    There have been mistakes, blunders, flaws, mess-ups, etc. But, nation-building is a very tall order, particularly in the mid-east.

    Still, the best option for everybody is to read and gain as much information as you can, not just read and post articles confirming your own bias.

  17. darthmalt16 Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 25, 2000
    star 4
    I agree with ShaneP

    Hey I don't know if it's been posted already but check out http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com

    Lots of quotes from Baghdad Bob

    "they are nowhere near the airport ..they are lost in the desert...they can not read a compass...they are retarded." Baghdad Bob"
  18. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 7
    "they are lost in the desert...they can not read a compass...they are retarded." Baghdad Bob"

    [face_laugh]

    That is great.
  19. Jedi_Xen Jedi Padawan

    Member Since:
    Sep 26, 2001
    star 4
    Lying is forbidden in Iraq. President Saddam Hussein will tolerate nothing but truthfulness as he is a man of great honor and integrity. Everyone is encouraged to speak freely of the truths evidenced in their eyes and hearts.

    Yeah and Im the King of Scotland.


    I guess I must be King Xen I, afterall how could you not trust this face?

    [image=http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/images/Al-Sahaf.alsahaf.jpg]
  20. Genghis12 Manager Emeritus

    Member Since:
    Nov 18, 1999
    star 6
    RE: Looting of the museum.

    Here's an idea. How about the people take responsibility for their actions and don't **** up their country's national treasures. This wasn't Saddam's. It wasn't Saddam's regime's. It was the "people's" treasures. And therefore, the "people's" responsibility. The Army is there to fight war, not police rare artifacts. The Iraqi people need to take responsibility for their actions.

    Sucks that the oldest printed copy of the Koran is now someone's paperweight for their desk at home.

    But, you know what, here's a novel idea...

    He shouldn't have taken it to begin with.
  21. MasterDarthVader Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2002
    star 3
    The problem Iraqis are complaining about the looting and the destruction in Iraq are that the Oil Ministry?s buildings and Oil Wells are protected so well that there are not a scratch on them (except a couple of Oil Wells).

    When the US and Britain went to get rid of the Saddem?s regime the US and Britain said the whole war is about regime changes not oil, but what is the first thing they protect? The Oil Ministry and Oil Wells.

    I know the oil are important to the future of Iraq, but that does not goes too well with the people when almost everything are destroyed except what the US and Britain said they are not here for.

    That does not hold water in the people?s mind.

    [link=http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,443089,00.html]click me[/link]

    edit spelling
  22. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 10
    Genghis, I believe the museum looters were professional thieves, weren't they. Otherwise, you're right - it's a shame, and Saddam shouldn't have had them anyways...

    E_S
  23. darthmomm Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jul 16, 2001
    star 4
    hmmm.....

    I supported this war.......on the premise that there WERE biological and chemical weapons.


    But, where are they?

    I am starting to do some doubting.....

    But, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.........


    For now.......

    Sorry to change the subject.........


  24. shinjo_jedi Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    May 21, 2002
    star 5
    But, where are they?

    You are very true right there. Before anyone starts bashing me, I doubt that there are no weapons of mass destruction, but I doubt there are many.

    Personally, I think our President was making a huge deal out of nothing. Sure, they could have them, they could not. But, if they had so many and all of that, then why has it taken us this long to find them? That is the only thing I am wondering.

    Wait, I know, their in Syria! :p
  25. Darth_Tallwon Jedi Youngling

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2003
    star 1
    I too am dismayed that wmd's have not been yet found.

    How dare the president take is into a war to do what, just free some little kids from a dictator? We were promised some really bad stuff and all we get is a 20 or 22 million lousy free Iraqi people?

    We were so wrong to wanna end this regime, it was so loved by the people.

    I cant believe our nazi like president has decided to let people have a right to live. Im sure that the only reason for this bad Public Relations War is to get oil that could have been taken in the first war with Iraq, that our empire failed to exploit for no apparrent reason.

    Whats next Iraqi's being able to vote an official into office?

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.