War in Iraq?, version 4.0 (Official Iraq thread)

Discussion in 'Archive: The Senate Floor' started by Ender Sai, Mar 12, 2003.

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  1. Ender Sai Chosen One

    Member Since:
    Feb 18, 2001
    star 9
    ShaneP - is Bill Gates to be considered evil? ;)

    "No, Senator, Monopoly is a board game, I'm trying to take over the ******* world!" - Robin Williams.

    E_S
  2. Mort Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Aug 25, 2000
    star 4
    Interesting development. Supposedly the coalition forces have found documents in Iraq alleging that George Galloway, a Labour MP who fiercely opposed the US-led military action, entered into partnership with a named Iraqi oil broker to sell oil on the international market for some £375,000 a year. Galloway is vehemently denying the charges as "Black Propaganda" and has plans to file a libel suit against the paper that first published the report, likening them to a "sewer".
    Links:
    Telegraph Article

    Guardian UK - How the Evidence Stacks Up

    Google News Round Up
  3. Green_Destiny_Sword Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Jun 20, 2001
    star 4
    375,000 pounds does not come close to the $100 Billion Bush's advisors will receive over the next five years in contracts to "rebuild" Iraq.
  4. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Here's a funny note. Blix is calling for the IAEA to soon return to its work in Iraq of seeking out WOMD. The US, on the other hand, says, you know what? I don't think so. You don't suppose the US would be willing to fabricate information later down the road, do you?? Why would the US not want the UN involved in searching for WOMD, especially since this whole war was over that? Wouldn't independent confirmation look better to the world?

    Blix said that it is "too early" for U.N. inspectors to return to Iraq until the security improves. But he said that it would be advisable for the United States to permit international verification of the disarmament and destruction of Iraq's banned weapons.

    Blix said he would require new guidance from the Security Council to resume his work in Iraq. But he insisted that he be granted "unrestricted rights of access to sites and persons, and to move and communicate freely and safely in Iraq.

    "I don't see any adversarial relation" with U.S. inspectors hunting for banned weapons in Iraq, he said. "We are all interested in finding the truth about the situation, whatever it is."

    John D. Negroponte, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, said that the United States sees no U.N. role "for the time being or for the foreseeable future" in verifying the disarmament of Iraq. Negroponte said that the U.S.-led coalition "has assumed responsibility for the disarming of Iraq" and would increase its inspection activities.


    source


  5. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Cheveyo, that's not the Bush administration's position regarding inspectors.

    They want the U.S. and coalition inspectors to be the first authority in finding and documenting the evidence, to then be followed up by independent UN confirmation.

    Blix and Annan want the UN inspectors to be the chief authority.

    That's the positions of the two, and the diffrences.
  6. yodashizzzle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    just a quick observation. i don't imagine that the U.S. would fabricate evidence about WMD. honestly? i think that the U.S. has had ample time to do so by now. it's quite possible no WMD will ever be found. but if they are, i would have to look at the evidence and based on the facts (one of which is the lack of fabrication so far) and make a judgement based on those things. questioning the credibility of the United States is one thing, but now we're being accused of denying Blix re-entry into Iraq because we apparantly want to plant some WMD and ol' Hans is gonna ruin the planned chicanery? it never ends, does it? the united states just can't win at anything, can it?
  7. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    the united states just can't win at anything, can it?

    Not when its government officials act the way they do. ;) Actually, I think it's more an issue of global perception. The US wants to be the first to find them, and says the UN can come in later. This naturally raises a few eyebrows.

    Is the US suggesting the UN would thwart any search for WOMD? Why else would the US say this is their job now? Unless someone's keeping the door open for other... shall we say... tactics.

    Is there another reason?

  8. yodashizzzle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    well.......if you wish to be vigilant in making sure that all the clear-cut evil motivations of whatever republican occupies the white house (at least until an honest democrat can move in) are exposed for us all......that's fine by me. it's one less battle i have to fight in my own efforts to save and enlighten the world.
  9. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    So, you can't think of another reason?


  10. yodashizzzle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    honestly? all sarcasm aside.......i don't think that WMD will be found. i think it will just be some stories of people talking about things that can't be substantiated with much in the way of facts. and the Bush administration will do what they can to administer some kind of damage control. but planting WMD or outright fabricating evidence? no, i don't think we'll see that. why is blix being kept out? well, the Americans honestly don't want anyone else to take credit in the event that WMD ARE found. i don't believe that the administration wants the intitial discovery to be made by an outside or third party. verified by 3rd parties? yes. found? no. but it will all be somewhat, though not totally irrelavant, IMO. i don't think they'll find more than the sort of stuff we've already seen (caches of gas masks, etc.). the U.S. has achieved a lot of goals and whether or not the failure to find WMD is a significant credibility issue remains to be seen. the next time war is imminent, it'll be brought up again, i'm sure. and rightly so. but if the administration were to fabricate, they would have most likely already have done so by now. and the reprecussions if such a planned activity were discovered would far outweigh the gains of a successful deception.
  11. Madriver Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Mar 7, 2003
    star 3
    and the reprecussions if such a planned activity were discovered would far outweigh the gains of a successful deception.

    Exactly my thoughts. You can't hide something like that forever, and the independant inspection of planted weapons would reveal inconsistencies. The damage possible from the discovery that the WMD have been planted is far greater than the damage if no WMD's are ever found.
  12. yodashizzzle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    especially since "evidence" of the deception will undoubtedly be offered up no matter what choice the U.S. makes. all you've got to do to discredit the current administration is offer up the VERY IDEA of such a deception, not prove it, and you'll have believers. whether or not the U.S. decieves the rest of the world , there will be those who will believe what they want to anyway. hence, the U.S. can't win.
  13. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    And news today about those Iraqis we saved from Saddam Hussein:

    News Flash! They want America to leave.
    KARBALA, Iraq, April 23--At the close of commemorations that brought hundreds of thousands of Shiite Muslims to this holy city in a show of resurgent power, an influential Shiite leader denounced the U.S. occupation as unacceptable today and urged U.S. officials to turn over administration of Iraq to "a national and independent government."

    "The American presence is unacceptable and there's no justification for it staying in Iraq," said Hakim, the deputy leader of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq and a brother of its Tehran-based leader, Ayatollah Mohammed Bakir Hakim.

    Jay M. Garner, the retired general assigned by the Pentagon to oversee Iraq's reconstruction, "is not needed here," he said at a news conference in a converted hotel for pilgrims. "Iraqis have the ability to administer and run their own country."

    Throughout the day, hundreds joined marches with pronounced political overtones. In chants and banners, they denounced the United States, Israel and Iraqi opposition leaders considered too close to Washington. As with Shiite movements in revolutionary Iran in the 1970s and Lebanon in the 1980s, they tapped religious symbolism to frame an overtly political message.

    "No to imperialism, no to Israel, no to America, no to Saddam," one slogan went. "Yes to Islam," another said.

    "We want them out," said 23-year-old Ali Abdel-Hussein. "We know America, we know how it deals with the rest of the world."[/i]




    source
  14. DarthKarde Jedi Grand Master

    Member Since:
    Jun 28, 2002
    star 5
  15. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    Iranian agents operating inside Iraq does not = Iraqi shiites.

    Sorry fellas.

    And the Post is "spinning" the FACT that at least one million shiites converged on Karbala, yet all the Iranian revolutionaries could muster was a few thousand anti-american protestors.

    Nice article.

    The brother of the Iranian Hakim wants the U.S. to leave?! [face_shocked]

    Weak...weak.

    Agendas.

    EDIT:

    Karde, I read that thinly-veiled agendized article you posted.

    "neo-conservatives" = jewish conservatives.

    no coincidence.

  16. Cheveyo Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 29, 2001
    star 5
    Iranian agents operating inside Iraq does not = Iraqi shiias.

    Hmm, Sheik Muhammad Thamer is an Iranian agent?? Curious. He is the deputy to Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sestani, Iraq's most senior Shiite cleric. Thamer said on Monday, "Our celebration will be perfect only when the American occupier is gone and the Iraqi people are able to rule themselves by the principles of Islam."

  17. ShaneP Ex-Mod Officio

    Member Since:
    Mar 26, 2001
    star 6
    No, no, Hakim.

    As for Thammer, so what?

    He's a fellow Islamic fundamentalist who wishes to turn Iraq into a theocracy.

    That will not happen. Period.

    You want a democratic Iraq? Then you can say bye-bye to political Islamic fundamentalism ruling.

    EDIT:
    oops.
  18. MasterDarthVader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2002
    star 3
    BAGHDAD ? U.S. military detectives are investigating five American soldiers in the theft of hundreds of thousands of dollars from a cache of money in Iraq, a commanding officer said Wednesday.

    U.S. forces have recovered more than $600 million from hiding places near Saddam Hussein's palace complexes in central Baghdad, said Lt Col Philip DeCamp, commander of the 4th Battalion, 64th Infantry Regiment.

    But along the way, a few U.S. troops apparently tried to stash hundreds of thousands of dollars, in $100 bills, for themselves, DeCamp said.

    "We've recovered just about all the money we thought was taken. We're still looking into it," he said.

    U.S. troops stumbled over several aluminum cases filled with $100 bills in an empty house Monday and officers initially estimated the total at more than $500 million. After checking the containers, it became clear someone had taken hundreds of thousands of dollars, and officers began looking for that money.

    Although DeCamp said $600 million has been recovered in all, a soldier familiar with the inquiry put the total figure at about $900,000. The soldier spoke on condition of anonymity.

    The U.S. Army Criminal Investigation Division, which is responsible for investigating serious crimes involving American troops, has opened a case and five soldiers have been questioned, DeCamp said. No one has been charged.

    U.S. troops have been searching government buildings and the homes of senior members of Saddam Hussein's regime for evidence related to weapons of mass destruction or government valuables. The U.S. military has promised to protect the cash and valuables found for a future Iraqi government. (Wire reports)


    There are reports that about 10 miilions are still missing.

    What should we (the US) do to the soldiers that are suppose to liberate and protect the Iraqis now found (allege)stealing from them? Who is looting from whom?

    click me



  19. Darth_Tallwon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2003
    star 1
    Listen buddy let me guess I put 600 million in front of you... and tell you none of it has been accounted for...Your telling me that if your a US service man who makes maybe 30,000 a year... You wouldn't be tempted? Wow im in the presence of a perfect man huh?

    Give me a break, so 100,000 troops 5 of them steal a few hundred thousand unaccounted money...and suddenly the 99,995 that are left are thieves... such retardation in the thought process...

    Humor my post please, But this war is not only to accomplish one goal, unlike WW1 and WW2 this war has far more implications then the end of a dictator. Thier are many, some of which are to deep even for us contemplate

    It was to:

    1. Remove the threat of WoMD's from Iraq, which at one point was enough to endanger millions of our families lives, not just U.S. but hundreds of other countries. (Peronally i dont enjoy thinking of my friends laying dead beacuse we did nothing.)

    Status...(in progress)

    2. Eliminate the ability of Terrorist's (not just Al Quieda) to operate in a terrorist contolled state.

    Status...(complete)

    3. Allow the soveriegn "people" (people doesn't =one evil man)to govern themselves again. And use thier resources to benefit all of thier people. yes...Oil

    Status...(in progress)

    4. Demonstrate the effect of how real freedom behaves when protected by those who love it. (now U.S. soldiers, soon Iraqi's themselves)

    Status...(in progress)

    5. Show the middle east that we are now ready to deal with issues that face them. (We mean what we say!) {IE the "road map for israel and palestine")

    Status...(in process)

    6. Send a warning to other regime's that we are cappaple of fighting a war despite our mixed feelings at home.

    Status...(in progress)

    Status of French, and German, Russian, Efforts to make the world safer

    Searching...searching...Item not found...

    Attempts of Hollywood to encourage the world to shun terrorism...

    searching... Searching ...Item not found...

    efforts of peace protesters to raise money for Iraqi relief efforts?

    searching... Searching ...Item not found...
  20. MasterDarthVader Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Dec 11, 2002
    star 3
    My point is it does not matter how many people are stealing from the Iraqis, all it takes is one bad apple to turn the whole thing sour. The Iraqis think that the US are there for the oil and let the looting destroyed their history. Now the protectors/liberators are stealing (allege)from them.


    WoMD seaching...seaching...search... still searching...

    UN "I help you seach..."
    US "NO!!!"
    Effort of the peace protesters to raise money for Iraq...Last time I check they still take taxes from my paycheck, I still pay taxes at the store. And I'm against this war.
  21. Darth_Tallwon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2003
    star 1
    Listen my confused friend, anyone can believe anybody at anytime. We can never hope for every single thing that happens in a war to be a PR campaign.

    Things will and have gone wrong in this war. But too quiblle about a few hundred thousand dollars and a handful of thieves(heh...) is trite and nonsensical.

    What about the billions of dollars saddam stole from his people...do you think they dont now what hes done to them? They are not blind peasants wandering the streets, they are intelligent people just like us.

    remember leia's word to luke. "He's got to follow his own path no one can make it for him..."

    we have to hope in human goodness...sad as that may sound.
  22. Darth_Tallwon Jedi Knight

    Member Since:
    Jan 9, 2003
    star 1
    And by the way,Cheveyo, Green_Destiny_Sword ,Kuna_Tiori

    think about who you support when you speak... do you represent the interests of freedom?

    Or are you simply supporting the ideals of the very ones who fight freedom, and want backwardness so that they can profit from the backs of unenlighted masses.

    Tread lightly on the doorways of communism and socialism you do indeed. The second you type that the US is evil and that Bush equals napoeleon( or even hitler), think of those who care not about bush, but for thier very lives, because of the people you speak for those who echo your opinions, threatening the people who aspire for freedom.

    Who do you sound like?

    Are you justifying barberism with the resulting destrucution of the US because the Us is evil? Meanwhile you cannot justify procuring the saftey of the worlds people by disarming an "evil" regime.

    Or do you deny the right to freedom to all people because they (all people who arent american) cant handle it responsibly, Or can't understand us because we are educated men and are therefore so superior? Do you feel the US is evil, then by logic you must agree with those who wish to kill my friends and family for simply living in freedom and peace.

    I laugh at those whose very words echo terrorists... and feel bad for those whose moral compass has lost its way. (sigh*)

    edit btw
    Kuna we live in a wonderful country where you can criticize bush, cheney, rumsfield, wolfowitz... And they wont send assasins to kill you, or gas your family until you change your mind...No only fake democracies do that...

    People who enjoy freedom really lose touch with those who dont huh?
  23. yodashizzzle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    "News Flash! They want America to leave."

    you know, i bet you can find an iraqi who's willing to state any number of opinions about the presence of Americans. i get so tired of somebody running out on the internet, finding a news report that shows how totally right on and on top of everything they are, posting it here, and screaming, "SCOREBOARD!!!"

    if that's a news flash that many iraqis want the united staes to leave, well, you're really on the cutting edge of things aren't you? you, sir, need a job as a political analyst. wow.


    as far as the "looting from whom" comment goes, it's good to see that, as expected, there are bad things that happen in the world and some people are willing to attribute it to whatever preconcieved agenda they've got on their plate.

    brilliant thinking to make the leap from-

    "soldiers stole money".......to


    "the U.S. is a bunch of evil bastards......get out of iraq you bad, bad, men!!! you...you...you arrogant Americans with you desires to bring stability to the Middle East!!! removing saddam hussein....Hmmph! how dare you?!"




    "last time I check they still take taxes from my paycheck, I still pay taxes at the store. And I'm against this war."

    well....you don't always win, do you?
  24. GrandAdmiralPelleaon Force Ghost

    Member Since:
    Oct 28, 2000
    star 6
    i get so tired of somebody running out on the internet, finding a news report that shows how totally right on and on top of everything they are, posting it here, and screaming, "SCOREBOARD!!!"

    Agreed there. But this goes on on both sides. I've seen plenty of people gloating on how much the Iraqi's love the Americans simply because there were photos from a few Iraqi's who love them.

    As for the money-stealing, I don't know where he said that that made the entire US Army thieves but I don't think it's a good idea to rationalize it. Just because it was tempting doesn't mean it was right or should be excused, theft is theft. And if you steal you should be punished. There were only 5 persons involved appearently, so on a whole I'd say if only 5 in 250 000 do that than there is no real problem, but the guilty people should not get away with what they did.
  25. yodashizzzle Jedi Master

    Member Since:
    Jan 27, 2003
    star 4
    "but the guilty people should not get away with what they did."


    absolutely 100% agreed. those soldiers who may have stolen money will undoubtedly be court marshalled and their lives will be changed in some significant ways for the worse if they are found to have been guilty. the negative PR from such an occurence will be difficult to overcome. rationalization is to be avoided as much as negative white-washing.


    and, yes, i know it happens on both sides of arguements. the situation is clearly, well............unclear. lots of different opinions are out there for whatever media organizations to pick one and give it a voice. the lack of plurality of OPINION is one of the most interesting things about the situation IMO.
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